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P.K. Subban Thread - Edition 6.0 - #BlameSubban

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01-24-2013, 04:37 PM
  #726
Chris Cutter
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
I never said he would not become a real #1 . For the moment he has not reached that potential yet.
My post was implying that he already is one, and would be one on 20 other teams too.

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01-24-2013, 04:38 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Subban was #1 by default in the last couple of years in Montreal.

The guy has flaws and he needs more time to reach his full potential. First of all, cut on the useless penalties, and turnovers.
Wrong about the penalties.

He may take a lot of penalties, but he also draws a lot of penalties. He takes 1.2 penalties per 60 minutes but he draws 0.9 penalties per 60 minutes, for a deficit of 0.3 penalties per 60 minutes; Emelin is the only dman who did better last year, Gorges and Kaberle did the same.

On average, Habs dmen took more penalties than they drew, probably the nature of the position and the system.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...42+43+44+45+46

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01-24-2013, 04:38 PM
  #728
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Well, he was 28th in the league last year in D scoring. There are 30 teams. Do the math?

(Actually, there were I think 6 or so teams who had multiple D in the top 30, so clearly the duplicate entries can't all be #1... some of them are by default #2 on their team... so Subban slides up to something like #22 amongst #1 D's).

And that's just on offense. He was better than that on defense, I'd say.
So you will agree with me then that Desharnais is a #1 center since he is the top 30 most productive center last season.

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01-24-2013, 04:38 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
The guy has flaws and he needs more time to reach his full potential. First of all, cut on the useless penalties, and turnovers.
He definitely has flaws. He is the first to admit it. Subban said it himself, he's definitely still learning and evolving, which is a bit of a scary thought when thinking about his potential.

All players have flaws. PK was thrust into the #1 role in Montreal and excelled as a 21 and 22 year old.

As for his penalties, he draws the most in the league if I recall correctly, to balance out taking the most, so that doesn't worry me. His draw/take penalty ration is fine.

He carries the puck a ton, but I would agree he needs to cut down a little on turnovers. He's still a great player though, and all signs point to him being a fantastic investment, especially long term.

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01-24-2013, 04:39 PM
  #730
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Like someones mentionned earlier..it's not about who's right or wrong between the Habs or PK. Both sides want something and they'll end up agreeing to something soon. He won't be traded... he still loves Montreal... Bergevin loves him... His team wants him...

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01-24-2013, 04:40 PM
  #731
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Man, we need a break.

We blew through 31 pages of thread in less than 8 hours...

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01-24-2013, 04:40 PM
  #732
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Can someone please explain to me in short why isn't PK signing his new contract ? What's the issue ?
????

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01-24-2013, 04:40 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Wrong about the penalties.

He may take a lot of penalties, but he also draws a lot of penalties. He takes 1.2 penalties per 60 minutes but he draws 0.9 penalties per 60 minutes, for a deficit of 0.3 penalties per 60 minutes; Emelin is the only dman who did better last year, Gorges and Kaberle did the same.

On average, Habs dmen took more penalties than they drew, probably the nature of the position and the system.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...42+43+44+45+46
PK attrracted many penalties because of his constant yapping towards opponents. Too bad is yapping is not only towards his opponents.

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01-24-2013, 04:40 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
When Galchenyuk gets to his contract, part of me thinks Bergevin will try to lowball him and offer him 2 years @ 2.5 million per, another part of me thinks that a different standard will apply to Galchenyuk because he's white.

We'll see.
Considering his contract he is on right now is over 3 million, I can't see that happening

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01-24-2013, 04:40 PM
  #735
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The kid is a special player, but it still seems early to give him a big term and big money...

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01-24-2013, 04:42 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It's been explained many times on this forum, but I'll do it again.

Subban is solid offensively, but he is not elite. He is a #2 or #3 offensively depending on what team you put him on. He got a lot of points on the PP last year because he had a lot of ice time. However, he does have the potential to be offensively elite.

He is already elite defensively. When he was drafted in 2007 he told the media that "PK" stands for "penalty killer", and people thought it was a cocky joke because he was perceived as a potential power play specialist in the mold of marc-andre bergeron. However, he is amazing at shutdown duty and penalty killing ability. A #1 on most teams in the NHL, maybe a #2 on a few teams.

Basically, he is a #1 defensively and a #2 offensively, even on good to great teams, and this is at age 23.

Read this article,, he's done a greatt job explaining things:
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...real-canadiens
I find it odd that people who continually say PK hasn't proven anything or isn't a #1 dman never actually comment on the findings of that well researched and written article

Must be a reason why...I can't seem to put my finger on it though...

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01-24-2013, 04:42 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
So you will agree with me then that Desharnais is a #1 center since he is the top 30 most productive center last season.
Well this is apples and oranges over here, Desharnais along with Cole and Pacioretty were getting favorable match-ups against weaker competition and offensive faceoffs in order for them to have more success. PK on the other hand played against the other team's top-lines.

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01-24-2013, 04:42 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Subban is already a #2 on a typical above-average team and a #1 on a typical below average team.

That's approximately what Galchenyuk would be if he has back-to-back 70 point seasons. Maybe you'd like to be pedantic and argue that the threshold is at 65 rather than 70 points.
20 forwards in the NHL made 70 points or more last year.
24 forwards in the NHL made 70 points or more the year before.

Of that group, only 8 did it both years. So 8 forwards in the NHL managed 70 points back to back years the last 2 seasons. Hmm...yah, not comparable.

In either case, suppose we say it's 65 as you said, the number still is selective. Now, if you go 60, you might just say desharnais is a good player, so I doubt you would.

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01-24-2013, 04:42 PM
  #739
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The question is whether or not to pay for potential. Right now, based on his 1st two seasons, I don't believe PK is worth $5mil/season, but he's close to that. For right now, I think a 2 year contract worth 4-4.5mil/year would be fair (he's certainly worth more than the 2.5-3 mil numbers that have bandied about). Do the habs gamble on more years at a higher salary based on potential or do they want to see PK get to 5-6 million value first?

I think it depends on PK's asking price. Regardless of the philosophy about 'bridge' contracts, I would be happy signing Subban long term at around $5mil. However if he's asking for $6mil+, that's being awfully presumptuous based on 2 seasons. Of course, we don't know what each side is asking/offering so it is hard to make any judgements at the moment.

My concern about PK (and there is a lot to like as well) is that I don't think he's a great passer and he doesn't make the greatest decisions with the puck at times. He also telegraphs his point shot (he's got a bomb, but he needs to do a better job getting it to the net and he needs to use more deception getting it off). With that said, we've seen a few players with these characteristics sign big deals only to under perform. What if PK becomes another McCabe/Jovanovski/Souray - a guy with a big shot that can put up points, but forgets about defense or playing a complete game once they get that big contract.

This is a tough negotiation for both parties. Based on other signings around the league, I can see why PK wants to secure his future now, but I can also see why the Habs would be hesitant.

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01-24-2013, 04:42 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by dkdanielkli View Post
Can someone please explain to me in short why isn't PK signing his new contract ? What's the issue ?
P.K. wants a long-term deal at big dollars.

Bergevin has held firm on it being a 2 year deal on reportedly somewhere around 3 M per season.

There have been rumblings in the last 24 hours that P.K. would be OK with signing 2 years, if he gets paid a lot of money.

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01-24-2013, 04:43 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
PK attrracted many penalties because of his constant yapping towards opponents. Too bad is yapping is not only towards his opponents.
It seems to me that people keep using facts and logic to explain his worth, and you keep dismissing them by using straw man arguments. He can do no right in your mind, and you have become entrenched in your position, as baseless as it is.

PK has faults, it's undeniable. But his positives far outweigh his few negatives, both on the ice and off.

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01-24-2013, 04:43 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
So you will agree with me then that Desharnais is a #1 center since he is the top 30 most productive center last season.
He's a #1 offensive center, yes. Subban is a #1 offensive defender.

I'm not sure I'd count DD as a #1 overall center... I'd still have Plekanec ahead of him for that honour on the Habs. Although DD is on the #1 line...

Subban is #1 offensive, and #1 overall, no contest, however.

Carey Price is the #1 goalie.

I'll go with Prust as #1 fighter/PIM guy.

Pleks on faceoffs.

Etc.

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01-24-2013, 04:44 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
P.K. wants a long-term deal at big dollars.

Bergevin has held firm on it being a 2 year deal on reportedly somewhere around 3 M per season.

There have been rumblings in the last 24 hours that P.K. would be OK with signing 2 years, if he gets paid a lot of money.
Then give him that two-year contract at 4 million per year.

That is his real value RIGHT NOW.

In a couple of years, he's gonna be amazing as a hockey player. That is when he's gonna cash in.

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01-24-2013, 04:44 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
When Galchenyuk gets to his contract, part of me thinks Bergevin will try to lowball him and offer him 2 years @ 2.5 million per, another part of me thinks that a different standard will apply to Galchenyuk because he's white.

We'll see.
Come on man!

If anything, it would be because Bergevin's first major move was gambling on Galchenyuk at the draft and he clearly trusts his attitude/character (as evidenced by the 24CH video when they tell him he made the team to start the season).

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01-24-2013, 04:45 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
P.K. wants a long-term deal at big dollars.

Bergevin has held firm on it being a 2 year deal on reportedly somewhere around 3 M per season.

There have been rumblings in the last 24 hours that P.K. would be OK with signing 2 years, if he gets paid a lot of money.
Wonder if PK would sign a 2 year contract if it paid him in the 9-10 M range?

I'd be fine with that, then lock him into an 8 year, 52 million range. That'd be best case scenario IMO

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01-24-2013, 04:45 PM
  #746
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I don't know how people can think Subban only deserves 2.75 mil when guys like Fowler and Hedmen both signed a 5yr/20mil deal. And PK is better than both of them so 4.5 would be a very fair price for 2 years. Then again PK wants more so we have to buy UFA years and the price rises. Not like his demands are ridiculous.

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01-24-2013, 04:46 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I find it odd that people who continually say PK hasn't proven anything or isn't a #1 dman never actually comment on the findings of that well researched and written article

Must be a reason why...I can't seem to put my finger on it though...
The question is, was he a #1 the last 2 years or just towards the end?

That's my issue. He deserves more money than the average joe and could argue term too. I just find it weird to say he's been a #1 for 2 years or whatever. He has reached that point for a limited period. He's ranged from top 4 to #1 in last 2 years. I feel he should be paid as such.

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01-24-2013, 04:46 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
20 forwards in the NHL made 70 points or more last year.
24 forwards in the NHL made 70 points or more the year before.

Of that group, only 8 did it both years. So 8 forwards in the NHL managed 70 points back to back years the last 2 seasons. Hmm...yah, not comparable.

In either case, suppose we say it's 65 as you said, the number still is selective. Now, if you go 60, you might just say desharnais is a good player, so I doubt you would.
The reason a lot of players like Jonathan Toews, Vincent Lecavalier, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, and Sidney Crosby fail to reach 70 points is not due to the fact that they're not elite.

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01-24-2013, 04:46 PM
  #749
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Then give him that two-year contract at 4 million per year.

That is his real value RIGHT NOW.
I'm okay with that. Even 4.5. I prefer not to give a long term deal just yet though.

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01-24-2013, 04:47 PM
  #750
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
P.K. wants a long-term deal at big dollars.

Bergevin has held firm on it being a 2 year deal on reportedly somewhere around 3 M per season.

There have been rumblings in the last 24 hours that P.K. would be OK with signing 2 years, if he gets paid a lot of money.
Where did you hear this?

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