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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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01-22-2013, 07:54 PM
  #351
Lafleurs Guy
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The world is flat.
Okay man, whatever you say...

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01-22-2013, 07:56 PM
  #352
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I think Cole and Gionta could net 1st rounders at the very least for a few reasons. The beauty of this season is that the teams who pick 8 to 12 will very very likely be in the hunt at the trade deadline.

A team that is in 6th in the East at the deadline, for example, and trades for Gionta, could plummet pretty quickly with a jam packed field of teams in a shortened season.

Add to that the fact that sellers will be rare and the demand for our veterans will increase.

Add to that the fact that we now have the ability to eat salary and cap hit and our return could potentially be incredible. More than at any other time in NHL history with these UNIQUE set of circumstances.

And this "non top 10 pick" reason is bs. Just this year you had Forsberg, Grigorenko and even Ceci at 15 who were picked outside the top 10. Grigorenko made his team already.

Any pick inside the top 20 is very intriguing. If we put Gionta on the block, especially if we eat some cap hit, he is probably the best guy on the block. We just saw Gaustad and Brouwer get 1st round picks. Gionta's return would be double.

There are few people on this board who want to outright dump our players. Personally, I don't even put Plekanec on the trade block. I would barely put Markov unless I see a potential return.

But Gionta, Cole, Bourque, Kaberle are all useful guys at the deadline. They will have significant interest. Cole could fetch a ****ing ransom. We have to put these guys on the block.
I don't know about Bourque or Kaberle getting us anything. I don't see either of them having much value at all. If we can get something, great but I wouldn't expect much.

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01-22-2013, 08:13 PM
  #353
Miller Time
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LG today's NN rumors provide a good example...

I'd trade either one of Cole or Gionta (and of course Bourque/Kaberle) in a package for Niederreiter.

I'd even take on Dipietro or Vishnovsky's contract in the process (can't speak for Molson, but of course taking on DP would be with the purpose of amnesty buy-out in the offseason).

So again, not opposed to trading away a vet in a deal for the future, just that said deal needs to be as beneficial as possible.

We're not getting a top-6, even a top-15 pick for Cole or Gionta (unless either of them are absolutely on fire this year, in which case, it would be less likely to move them anyways), and trading either of them for a late first round pick or for a prospect of a lesser pedigree of a kid like Niederreiter would not be worth the loss.

(granted, despite his tough rookie season, I'm still of a high opinion on Niederreiter, viewing his top-10 production in the AHL as a 20 year old as ample evidence that he's still on the path to becoming a quality top-line player in the NHL in 2-3 years.)

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01-22-2013, 08:27 PM
  #354
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The Habs don't need Plekanec and of course they don't need Markov.

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Old
01-22-2013, 08:35 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
LG today's NN rumors provide a good example...

I'd trade either one of Cole or Gionta (and of course Bourque/Kaberle) in a package for Niederreiter.

I'd even take on Dipietro or Vishnovsky's contract in the process (can't speak for Molson, but of course taking on DP would be with the purpose of amnesty buy-out in the offseason).

So again, not opposed to trading away a vet in a deal for the future, just that said deal needs to be as beneficial as possible.

We're not getting a top-6, even a top-15 pick for Cole or Gionta (unless either of them are absolutely on fire this year, in which case, it would be less likely to move them anyways), and trading either of them for a late first round pick or for a prospect of a lesser pedigree of a kid like Niederreiter would not be worth the loss.

(granted, despite his tough rookie season, I'm still of a high opinion on Niederreiter, viewing his top-10 production in the AHL as a 20 year old as ample evidence that he's still on the path to becoming a quality top-line player in the NHL in 2-3 years.)
Interesting. I dont know much about this guy but a former top five sounds interesting. Then again so did Benoit Pouliot so I guess we'd have to be careful.

On the flipside though I dont see why the Isles would want a vet. Then again it's Charles Wang so I guess anything's possible.

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01-22-2013, 08:37 PM
  #356
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Youth isn't everything. Barring serious injury, the best players last much longer than average players. Being "stuck" with veterans depends on who they are.

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01-22-2013, 08:43 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
I think Cole and Gionta could net 1st rounders at the very least for a few reasons. The beauty of this season is that the teams who pick 8 to 12 will very very likely be in the hunt at the trade deadline.

A team that is in 6th in the East at the deadline, for example, and trades for Gionta, could plummet pretty quickly with a jam packed field of teams in a shortened season.

Add to that the fact that sellers will be rare and the demand for our veterans will increase.

Add to that the fact that we now have the ability to eat salary and cap hit and our return could potentially be incredible. More than at any other time in NHL history with these UNIQUE set of circumstances.

And this "non top 10 pick" reason is bs. Just this year you had Forsberg, Grigorenko and even Ceci at 15 who were picked outside the top 10. Grigorenko made his team already.

Any pick inside the top 20 is very intriguing. If we put Gionta on the block, especially if we eat some cap hit, he is probably the best guy on the block. We just saw Gaustad and Brouwer get 1st round picks. Gionta's return would be double.

There are few people on this board who want to outright dump our players. Personally, I don't even put Plekanec on the trade block. I would barely put Markov unless I see a potential return.

But Gionta, Cole, Bourque, Kaberle are all useful guys at the deadline. They will have significant interest. Cole could fetch a ****ing ransom. We have to put these guys on the block.
By happenstance, Gionta, Plekanec, and Markov all scored in the Habs' first or second game. Let's hope they can maintain their pace.

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01-22-2013, 08:49 PM
  #358
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Personally, I think dumping vets should be done in small doses. Yes a rebuild should include clearing vets for new leadership to take hold, but rookies also need to learn by example from top-quality vets. But It's a vital part of building a winner, especially if you're building out of a current loser.

Trading a Cole or a Pleks might be a huge mistake in terms of how they set the example for younger teams. On the other hand, couldn't Saku Koivu have netted a pick.


Last edited by Bullsmith: 01-22-2013 at 08:57 PM.
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Old
01-22-2013, 09:15 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Youth isn't everything. Barring serious injury, the best players last much longer than average players. Being "stuck" with veterans depends on who they are.
not sure what longevity of career has to do with improving the team ?

just because a guy avoids injury, and finds a niche role that allows him to stay in the league for 700-800+ games, doesn't mean he's a key piece of the puzzle for building a contender.

i fully get, and agree with, the need for some veteran leadership, but looking back at the last 5-6 cup winners (Kings, Bruins, Blackhawks, Penguins, Red Wings & ducks), each of them was led in large part by players under 30yrs old (especially up front).


of those teams, there really weren't many 30+ players who you would really consider "key" impact players... Chara/Thomas (Bruins), Gonchar (Pens), Lidstrom (RedWings), Selanne/Pronger/Niedemayer (Ducks).

I don't think anyone, "tanker" or not, would be arguing for the Habs to trade away any players of the caliber of those listed above for picks/prospects.

I think the point is finding a way to land a player or two that can become that kind of elite talent and play for us for the next 2 decades.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:15 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
dont bother with this LG guy, examples of succesful rebuild for him are teams who never won anything or teams that spent a decade or more of losing before being contenders
Once again, you couldn't be more right, my friend

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Okay man, whatever you say...
Classy.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:28 PM
  #361
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Personally, I think dumping vets should be done in small doses. Yes a rebuild should include clearing vets for new leadership to take hold, but rookies also need to learn by example from top-quality vets. But It's a vital part of building a winner, especially if you're building out of a current loser.

Trading a Cole or a Pleks might be a huge mistake in terms of how they set the example for younger teams. On the other hand, couldn't Saku Koivu have netted a pick.
Yeah a pick would've been nice.

It all comes down to the return. If we don't get at least a 1st for Markov or Cole... don't bother. And if Plecs doesn't fetch a prospect that we can build with plus additional picks don't make the deal. It's fine to walk away if you aren't getting what you want.

I don't expect any of these trades to happen btw. I think it makes a whole lot of sense to do it but it won't happen. I'll be happy if we just go with what we've got and see how the season goes... as long as we don't make any more 'quick fix' type moves. The quick fix moves that we've been in love with over the years have really hurt us in the long run.

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Old
01-22-2013, 09:31 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
LG today's NN rumors provide a good example...

I'd trade either one of Cole or Gionta (and of course Bourque/Kaberle) in a package for Niederreiter.

I'd even take on Dipietro or Vishnovsky's contract in the process (can't speak for Molson, but of course taking on DP would be with the purpose of amnesty buy-out in the offseason).

So again, not opposed to trading away a vet in a deal for the future, just that said deal needs to be as beneficial as possible.

We're not getting a top-6, even a top-15 pick for Cole or Gionta (unless either of them are absolutely on fire this year, in which case, it would be less likely to move them anyways), and trading either of them for a late first round pick or for a prospect of a lesser pedigree of a kid like Niederreiter would not be worth the loss.

(granted, despite his tough rookie season, I'm still of a high opinion on Niederreiter, viewing his top-10 production in the AHL as a 20 year old as ample evidence that he's still on the path to becoming a quality top-line player in the NHL in 2-3 years.)
Dipietro's contract is like some financial Escher diagram, it just keeps going and going and going. He is STILL owed 8 yr/$36M so taking on this salary to buy him out means the team would basically pay $24M plus the picks/players needed to acquire Nino. That is pretty stiff.

Be interesting to go to negotiations with Meehan after that: "sorry we spent all of the budget to buy out Rick Dipietro. Our new contract offer is dinner for two with Youppi."

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01-22-2013, 09:32 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
Dipietro's contract is like some financial Escher diagram, it just keeps going and going and going. He is STILL owed 8 yr/$36M so taking on this salary to buy him out means the team would basically pay $24M plus the picks/players needed to acquire Nino. That is pretty stiff.

Be interesting to go to negotiations with Meehan after that: "sorry we spent all of the budget to buy out Rick Dipietro. Our new contract offer is dinner for two with Youppi."
Maybe they've already planned for this and its why we haven't signed PK yet.

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01-22-2013, 09:34 PM
  #364
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Dipietro's contract is like some financial Escher diagram, it just keeps going and going and going.
Man, I love this line! But I hate people who write better than I do...

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Old
01-22-2013, 10:21 PM
  #365
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
Dipietro's contract is like some financial Escher diagram, it just keeps going and going and going. He is STILL owed 8 yr/$36M so taking on this salary to buy him out means the team would basically pay $24M plus the picks/players needed to acquire Nino. That is pretty stiff.

Be interesting to go to negotiations with Meehan after that: "sorry we spent all of the budget to buy out Rick Dipietro. Our new contract offer is dinner for two with Youppi."
yeah... probably completely unlikely, but man would it be nice to see ownership actually put their money where there mouth is, and take advantage of this small window to actually use their financial advantage over other teams to make long-term improvements to the on-ice product.

and who knows, at that kind of money, maybe Wang pushes Snow to make the deal even sweeter to pull it off. he's moving the team in two years anyways (and while Brooklyn isn't that far from LongIsland, it's enough of a change of scenery to shift the fanbase focus), so what does he care if he strips the team down a bit more before the big move.

thinking about it, i really hope the habs get in on that if they open up the floor... imagine being able to pry Tavares (and his primo 5M$ contract) out of there at the same time...

just our luck, the Laffs will be front runners and pull some deal like the one the Jays did with the Marlins, MLSE certainly doesn't mind throwing cash around.

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01-22-2013, 10:36 PM
  #366
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yeah... probably completely unlikely, but man would it be nice to see ownership actually put their money where there mouth is, and take advantage of this small window to actually use their financial advantage over other teams to make long-term improvements to the on-ice product.

and who knows, at that kind of money, maybe Wang pushes Snow to make the deal even sweeter to pull it off. he's moving the team in two years anyways (and while Brooklyn isn't that far from LongIsland, it's enough of a change of scenery to shift the fanbase focus), so what does he care if he strips the team down a bit more before the big move.

thinking about it, i really hope the habs get in on that if they open up the floor... imagine being able to pry Tavares (and his primo 5M$ contract) out of there at the same time...

just our luck, the Laffs will be front runners and pull some deal like the one the Jays did with the Marlins, MLSE certainly doesn't mind throwing cash around.
As is stands NYI might need to keep Dipietro around just to hit the cap floor.

Currently, the Islanders cap hit is about $50M, twelve of that going to Dipeitro, the buried contract of Visnovsky and the ongoing buyout for Yashin.

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01-22-2013, 10:47 PM
  #367
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As is stands NYI might need to keep Dipietro around just to hit the cap floor.

Currently, the Islanders cap hit is about $50M, twelve of that going to Dipeitro, the buried contract of Visnovsky and the ongoing buyout for Yashin.
My God that is pathetic. It's so sad seeing a once proud franchise being run into the ground. Their fans deserve better.

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01-22-2013, 10:58 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
As is stands NYI might need to keep Dipietro around just to hit the cap floor.

Currently, the Islanders cap hit is about $50M, twelve of that going to Dipeitro, the buried contract of Visnovsky and the ongoing buyout for Yashin.
does Vish's contract count against(or in this case, towards) the cap even while he's suspended?

that would seem unlikely... punishing (albeit in this case, "rewarding") a team for a player who goes AWOL.


and we certainly have a guy we could send over there in the process (Kaberle) to compensate for them "losing" DP's cap floor impact

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01-22-2013, 11:22 PM
  #369
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does Vish's contract count against(or in this case, towards) the cap even while he's suspended?

that would seem unlikely... punishing (albeit in this case, "rewarding") a team for a player who goes AWOL.


and we certainly have a guy we could send over there in the process (Kaberle) to compensate for them "losing" DP's cap floor impact
Actually I think it does count against them. Thomas' contract counts against the Bruins right? I don't see how this is different.

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01-22-2013, 11:51 PM
  #370
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Actually I think it does count against them. Thomas' contract counts against the Bruins right? I don't see how this is different.
Thomas was on a 35+ contract... and did the B's actually suspend him?

not sure if either of those aspects make a difference, but it would seem to me pretty crazy if a team got stuck with the cap hit on a player who bolted to play in another league...

If Malkin or Kovalchuk decide to bolt to the KHL, are the pens/devils really going to be hit with the massive cap hit as a result?

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01-24-2013, 02:38 PM
  #371
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I've suggested 1 year of tanking, but I assumed Subban when I said so.

Without Subban, we need at least three years of tanking.

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01-24-2013, 07:43 PM
  #372
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Bump

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01-24-2013, 10:06 PM
  #373
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kinda hard tanking when the team keeps winning

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:33 PM
  #374
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I'm starting to think this team could be pretty good.

They say you should build from the net out, and we have a stud in net, and an excellent crew of D once Subban signs. Just need some help up front.

Love the goalie/D core.

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01-25-2013, 12:45 AM
  #375
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Markov looks better than I could have hoped so far, but that just makes you wonder: why would you trade him at this point? There is so much experience and skill there from which players like Diaz and Subban can learn for years to come, and a defensive presence that Emelin and Gorges can take note of.

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