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Old
01-24-2013, 11:14 PM
  #51
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
didn't this guy just go unclaimed on waivers or is my memory playing tricks on me?
Yep not my point he was fine last year and he was put on waivers at the last day so only teams that had a goalie that could go down with out waivers could claim him so there was maybe 2 teams that could claim him as they would have to carry for 30 days on the nhl roster.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:16 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
I recall Ottawa doing ok in a few games with Spezza injured and Turris playing top line. He was close to if not PPG player. The bigger issue is depth behind him at that point. I know what you are saying, but that point is really invalid. If Butler was a #2-3, it would make sense. You are also underestimating the importance of a good two-way center.
Playing a couple games on the top line is not the same as playing on the top line every night. And no one is underestimating anything you are missing his point I think.

Let me word his point a little differently so maybe its a bit more clear to you what was meant.

Butler was used on the top defensive pairing last year and was clearly in over his head, he managed to tread water but people make comments saying he is a #7 defenseman because he didn't excel as a top pairing **** down defenseman. But the reality is somewhere in the middle, which is him being a 4/5 defenseman.

Now lets say Turris was thrown onto the the top line for a full season and he was clearly over his head but still managed to tread water, but someone called him a 4th line center, would you not point out that just because he didn't excel as a #1 it doesn't make him a #4 center? That all we are doing, there was nothing intended as disrespect towards Turris or his play.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Spezza missed what 2 games last year
The only thing more amusing, is your ignorance towards Sens players.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:20 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post



Kiprusoff is ancient, and apparently crappy this year so far.

and then... no one. Calgary needs Bishop.
Kiprusoff had 2 rough games after not playing in 9 months, hardly a reason to overpay for a backup goaltender when we have a backup goaltender that did very well for us last year.

If we didn't have Ramo coming back from Russia next year then maybe I would agree that the Flames needed Bishop, but that is not the case.

Trading roughly the value of a 2nd for a guy that would only play a handful of games is poor asset management.

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01-24-2013, 11:20 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
The only thing more amusing, is your ignorance towards Sens players.
How am I ignorant to Sens players? Turris is a great #2 center I already said I made a bad assumption, but playing 2 games on the top line is not the same as proving he is a first line center.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:21 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
How am I ignorant to Sens players? Turris is a great #2 center I already said I made a bad assumption, but playing 2 games on the top line is not the same as proving he is a first line center.
I really think the analogy went way over his head.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:23 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
I really think the analogy went way over his head.
Yea I feel like it was a valid analogy but whatever, the bottom line is Irving was good for us last year and has earned a shot at the backup role if he falls flat on his face then maybe we look at trading for a backup but most likely Ramo comes over next year anyway and is one the best goalies outside of the nhl so no need to panic yet.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:24 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
Playing a couple games on the top line is not the same as playing on the top line every night. And no one is underestimating anything you are missing his point I think.

Let me word his point a little differently so maybe its a bit more clear to you what was meant.

Butler was used on the top defensive pairing last year and was clearly in over his head, he managed to tread water but people make comments saying he is a #7 defenseman because he didn't excel as a top pairing **** down defenseman. But the reality is somewhere in the middle, which is him being a 4/5 defenseman.

Now lets say Turris was thrown onto the the top line for a full season and he was clearly over his head but still managed to tread water, but someone called him a 4th line center, would you not point out that just because he didn't excel as a #1 it doesn't make him a #4 center? That all we are doing, there was nothing intended as disrespect towards Turris or his play.
Lets say Chris Butler is thrown on a defensive pairing WITHOUT Jay Bouwmeester regularly.... See, I dont like these arguments. If, and, or, but, Turris didn't do too badly in that role. This year, he is better, too. Basically, you are saying Kyle Turris is a #2 center for good because of Jason Spezza. He is being punished because he is playing second fiddle to an elite centerman in the NHL. While I agree he doesn't quite have the skill and proof to be a true #1 yet, it seems rather ridiculous when you are bringing this up on D-men with a comparable being Chris Butler. One of these guys is doing a ton more than the other.

I never said Butler was a #7 defenseman. But its even more stupid to bring up Kyle Turris in an argument of Butler's defense right now. Kyle Turris is a much better player in a more valuable position.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:24 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Yea I feel like it was a valid analogy but whatever, the bottom line is Irving was good for us last year and has earned a shot at the backup role if he falls flat on his face then maybe we look at trading for a backup but most likely Ramo comes over next year anyway and is one the best goalies outside of the nhl so no need to panic yet.
pretty much yeah. the only way Calgary trades for someone like Bishop IMO is if Kipper gets traded or lets it be known he is retiring and Irving is having a bad year.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:28 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Lets say Chris Butler is thrown on a defensive pairing WITHOUT Jay Bouwmeester regularly.... See, I dont like these arguments. If, and, or, but, Turris didn't do too badly in that role. This year, he is better, too. Basically, you are saying Kyle Turris is a #2 center for good because of Jason Spezza. He is being punished because he is playing second fiddle to an elite centerman in the NHL. While I agree he doesn't quite have the skill and proof to be a true #1 yet, it seems rather ridiculous when you are bringing this up on D-men with a comparable being Chris Butler. One of these guys is doing a ton more than the other.

I never said Butler was a #7 defenseman. But its even more stupid to bring up Kyle Turris in an argument of Butler's defense right now. Kyle Turris is a much better player in a more valuable position.
you are still missing the point, badly at that.

We are talking in the present, not the future, no one is suggesting Turris will never be a #1 center.

And when you quoted TheGleninator he was replaying to someone who called Butler a #7 defenseman, that's what brought up the analogy. He wasn't comparing the 2 players either.

But I am finished with this pointless bickering, we have tried to make it as clear as possible what was meant but you are twisting into it being some sort of insult.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:28 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
I really think the analogy went way over his head.
You forgot the part you are comparing a #4-5 d-man to a #2 center. Am I more upset? Of course... because that d-men doesn't even have a quarter of the value.

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01-24-2013, 11:29 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Lets say Chris Butler is thrown on a defensive pairing WITHOUT Jay Bouwmeester regularly.... See, I dont like these arguments. If, and, or, but, Turris didn't do too badly in that role. This year, he is better, too. Basically, you are saying Kyle Turris is a #2 center for good because of Jason Spezza. He is being punished because he is playing second fiddle to an elite centerman in the NHL. While I agree he doesn't quite have the skill and proof to be a true #1 yet, it seems rather ridiculous when you are bringing this up on D-men with a comparable being Chris Butler. One of these guys is doing a ton more than the other.

I never said Butler was a #7 defenseman. But its even more stupid to bring up Kyle Turris in an argument of Butler's defense right now. Kyle Turris is a much better player in a more valuable position.
You missed the point, just forget Turris clearly that boat has sailed. I wasn't saying Turris was as valuable either.

The point is people say he sucks because he wasn't a #2 defensemen he couldn't handle 22+ minutes a night against top lines but that doesn't mean he isn't a good #4 defense men playing 18-20 minutes against 2nd and 3rd lines.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:31 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
You forgot the part you are comparing a #4-5 d-man to a #2 center. Am I more upset? Of course... because that d-men doesn't even have a quarter of the value.
He wasn't comparing the players. He was comparing possible situations.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:32 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
You forgot the part you are comparing a #4-5 d-man to a #2 center. Am I more upset? Of course... because that d-men doesn't even have a quarter of the value.
Just stop talking about Turris you missed the point.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:38 PM
  #65
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So basically, your retort to a trolling attempt is to be a troll, yet you call me pointless?

That is fine, just remember the difference between a #4-5 d-man with some upside, and a top 6 center with more upside.
You clearly don't understand an analogy, my point was that saying that any defensemen that fails to be a top 2 defensemen is a #7 defensemen is as bad of an argument as saying that any 2nd line center that fails to be a first line star makes the center a 4th liner. Both aren't valid I like Turris and wish Calgary had traded for him it wasn't a comment on him.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:38 PM
  #66
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So basically, your retort to a trolling attempt is to be a troll, yet you call me pointless?

That is fine, just remember the difference between a #4-5 d-man with some upside, and a top 6 center with more upside.
No one was trolling anything on our side of the argument, let me try this another way without using a direct analogy.

If a defenseman on the Senators was asked to play on your top pairing despite the fact everyone knew that he was way over his head from day one, but the player managed to keep his head above water and ended up having an "okay" season but had one really bad game that was highly publicized. Then at the start of the next season an opposition fan referred to that defenseman as a #7 defenseman, would you not defend that player? Because that's all this was.

TheGleninator was only trying to come up with an example using a Senators player, it was not an attempt to troll nor was it an attempt to compare Butler to Turris.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:42 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Its crazy how people call him a #7 defensemen because he can't handle being a #2 defensemen its like calling Turris a 4th line center since he would fail as a #1 centermen.
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Just stop talking about Turris you missed the point.
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
You missed the point, just forget Turris clearly that boat has sailed. I wasn't saying Turris was as valuable either.

The point is people say he sucks because he wasn't a #2 defensemen he couldn't handle 22+ minutes a night against top lines but that doesn't mean he isn't a good #4 defense men playing 18-20 minutes against 2nd and 3rd lines.
Why has it sailed? You basically tried to tell us what our center, cant do, when he has done an ok job of it, and you laughed in our faces about it.

I really don't care about the Butler argument, in fact I'd agree he'd be a fine 4-5, but right now, I don't see that as much of an upgrade on what we have right now anyways(Benoit, Lundin). Turris argument is just stupid. Calling Turris a 4th liner makes far less sense than calling Butler a #7. Its ridiculous, actually.

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01-24-2013, 11:45 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Why has it sailed? You basically tried to tell us what our center, cant do, when he has done an ok job of it, and you laughed in our faces about it.

I really don't care about the Butler argument, in fact I'd agree he'd be a fine 4-5, but right now, I don't see that as much of an upgrade on what we have right now anyways(Benoit, Lundin). Turris argument is just stupid. Calling Turris a 4th liner makes far less sense than calling Butler a #7. Its ridiculous, actually.
Thats the point, hell I apologized for saying he couldn't be a #1 and changed to if he couldn't be, I laughed because you made it sound like Turris proved he was a top line center when he played there 2 games.

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Old
01-24-2013, 11:52 PM
  #69
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not reading thread....

demand for bishop (NHL caliber goalie) = high

demand for butler (bottom-pairing dman, at best) = non-existent

we don't make this trade, let alone add a pick... come on

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01-24-2013, 11:52 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Why has it sailed? You basically tried to tell us what our center, cant do, when he has done an ok job of it, and you laughed in our faces about it.

I really don't care about the Butler argument, in fact I'd agree he'd be a fine 4-5, but right now, I don't see that as much of an upgrade on what we have right now anyways(Benoit, Lundin). Turris argument is just stupid. Calling Turris a 4th liner makes far less sense than calling Butler a #7. Its ridiculous, actually.
Someone stated that Butler was a 7th defencemen. The Gleninator said how he played first pairing for a year and did well enough. Definitely not 7th defencemen quality. Not number 1 either, more like 4/5 level.

He then brought up Turris (a player Ottawa actually knows about so they may understand) and said that because he is not capable of being the go to center for Ottawa he is basically a number 4 center. This is too demonstrate how crazy the original claim was.

Funnily enough Ottawa is playing with their 8th defencemen currently (our bottom pair has a combined like 15 games) a legit 7th defencman with NHL experience isn't even bad for Ottawa, just not Bishop worthy.

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Old
01-25-2013, 12:25 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Why has it sailed? You basically tried to tell us what our center, cant do, when he has done an ok job of it, and you laughed in our faces about it.

I really don't care about the Butler argument, in fact I'd agree he'd be a fine 4-5, but right now, I don't see that as much of an upgrade on what we have right now anyways(Benoit, Lundin). Turris argument is just stupid. Calling Turris a 4th liner makes far less sense than calling Butler a #7. Its ridiculous, actually.
He was strictly addressing the person's logic who called butler a seventh dman because he wasnt a first pairing dman. He then said it was the same as calling turris a fourth line center just because he isnt a first line center.

He was throwing that person's logic back at them. He wasnt being snarky or trollish. :|

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Old
01-25-2013, 12:39 AM
  #72
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I can't believe u guys are bashing Irving...he was pretty during the flames game in Ottawa, never would've made it to OT if it weren't for him

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Old
01-25-2013, 12:43 AM
  #73
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demand for bishop (NHL caliber goalie) = high
Really? Demand is high? Where is this demand? What makes Bishop so desirable? What exactly has he proven to be called NHL caliber? The only thing that makes him standout is his freakish size. Don't see much else to get all excited about or claim he is in demand. Come on!

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Old
01-25-2013, 12:47 AM
  #74
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Butler isn't worth Bishop OR the 3rd round pick alone to Ottawa.
I don't think that's very accurate.

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01-25-2013, 12:53 AM
  #75
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just not Bishop worthy.
What's so special about Bishop? He's 26 years old, played a total of 23 career NHL games, and has a losing record. If he was so special the Blues would never have traded him. He's a backup goaltender, nothing more nothing less.

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