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01-24-2013, 10:38 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
Hudler is one dimensional and sucks. End of story.
End of a story that's fiction.

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01-24-2013, 10:42 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
You're reading too much into this. Tatar has a spot on the lineup next year. He has his fair shake. This is far from the "ZOMG HE"S GONNA BOLT!!!!1111one!!!1one!" This is more like "Who knows? I don't. We'll see when that bridge has to be crossed. If the KHL gives me the better chance, then so be it." But the KHL isn't going to give him the better chance. You're freaking out over nothing.
All you do is assign fake points to other people and argue against them.

TZE isn't freaking out.
TZE isn't posting with !!!!!!
TZE isn't reading anything into it but what any other normal person might read...

That maybe Tatar is getting sick of the AHL bus rides and waiting for his chance to prove he's an NHLer.

He showed the world what he could do in the World Championships last year...

And we keep him dumped in the AHL so we can sign garbage heap players like Sammuelsson

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01-24-2013, 10:46 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
All you do is assign fake points to other people and argue against them.

TZE isn't freaking out.
TZE isn't posting with !!!!!!
TZE isn't reading anything into it but what any other normal person might read...

That maybe Tatar is getting sick of the AHL bus rides and waiting for his chance to prove he's an NHLer.

He showed the world what he could do in the World Championships last year...

And we keep him dumped in the AHL so we can sign garbage heap players like Sammuelsson
Bingo, and what is to say he gets a fair shake next year and that his roster spot is already assured? We said the same thing about the guys name on this thread that nobody is talking about.

I was just pointing out Jman that your point that he never talks about the KHL is false. He most certainly has, we remain his first option but for how long??? Only Tatar knows that but we do know he dislikes the AHL over the KHL and he is growing tired of the scenario he finds himself in. I hope it works out and plays for the Wings or we trade him so he can play in the NHL. What we are doing to him now isn't all that fair in my opinion. Which is fine the Wings have that business right, but if he does bolt for the KHL I will not blame him.

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01-24-2013, 10:53 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Bingo, and what is to say he gets a fair shake next year and that his roster spot is already assured? We said the same thing about the guys name on this thread that nobody is talking about.

I was just pointing out Jman that your point that he never talks about the KHL is false. He most certainly has, we remain his first option but for how long??? Only Tatar knows that but we do know he dislikes the AHL over the KHL and he is growing tired of the scenario he finds himself in. I hope it works out and plays for the Wings or we trade him so he can play in the NHL. What we are doing to him now isn't all that fair in my opinion. Which is fine the Wings have that business right, but if he does bolt for the KHL I will not blame him.
Strawman argument. I said he has never said he's going to bolt, which he hasn't. He's merely suggested that for the off chance that somehow Holland manages to clog up (He won't, and that's a $1,000,000 bet I'd easily take if I had the money) the forward position even after FA departures, that the KHL may be an option he utilizes. He didn't, nor has he ever said "I hate the AHL, I hate this organization, and the moment my contract is up I'm outa here." It's all a bunch of BS whipped up by the Holland haters so they have more ammunition to drink the hatorade with. He has a spot next year. Get over it. Holland has a plan with transitioning prospects onto the team. It doesn't involve throwing them all at once to the wolves.

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01-24-2013, 10:55 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Big surprise.

When Hudler played with top 6 linemates, he produced like a top sixer.

Hudler had physical limitations. So did Holmstrom.

So do other Red Wings forwards. I don't have a really hard time with Hudler being moved because Babcock didn't like him, so why not move him somewhere where he can succeed?

But this guy produced here. And even when he sucked two years ago, when he played regular minutes with Datsyuk, he was a good producer.
Thats not true. Babcock loved Hudler. He gushed about him all the time. The fact was we needed to get bigger/faster/better defensively at that position. He was terrible defensively. But Babcock did not hate Hudler at all.

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01-24-2013, 10:57 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Strawman argument. I said he has never said he's going to bolt, which he hasn't. He's merely suggested that for the off chance that somehow Holland manages to clog up (He won't, and that's a $1,000,000 bet I'd easily take if I had the money) the forward position even after FA departures, that the KHL may be an option he utilizes. He didn't, nor has he ever said "I hate the AHL, I hate this organization, and the moment my contract is up I'm outa here." It's all a bunch of BS whipped up by the Holland haters so they have more ammunition to drink the hatorade with. He has a spot next year. Get over it. Holland has a plan with transitioning prospects onto the team. It doesn't involve throwing them all at once to the wolves.
I am pretty far from a Holland hater to call me that is well laughable.

He doesn't have a spot next year on the team right now we all would like to believe he does. He also went from never EVER talking about it to quotes. You can say whatever you want it is a discussion board but make **** up and you will be called on it.

Saying he will look into it is talking about it.

I didn't say he trashed the organization although his comments while doing a local add in Slovakia were less than flattering on his opinion of staying in the AHL during the lockout. He just has his options open and that is probably to help apply pressure. But it is a real threat and if they wait through next year the chances of him signing for minimal money because of no NHL experience and his AHL options are up as that contract expires are incredibly small.

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01-24-2013, 11:03 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
I am pretty far from a Holland hater to call me that is well laughable.

He doesn't have a spot next year on the team right now we all would like to believe he does. He also went from never EVER talking about it to quotes. You can say whatever you want it is a discussion board but make **** up and you will be called on it.
I said, and I quote, That Tatar NEVER stated he was going to bolt for the KHL. He never said he's going to bolt for the KHL. He said it's an option down the line, but he didn't know. That's far from certainty that he's going to absolutely bolt. It's a strawman argument that you're making.


I didn't call you a Holland hater. To say that Tatar doesn't have a roster spot next year is complete BS, and I will call you on it. There are four forward position spots to fill next year. Cleary will not be resigned. Even if Filppula is resigned (I don't think he will), that leaves 3 positions. Two of those WILL be filled by Tatar and Nyquist, unless they are traded. To argue against this is arguing against common sense.

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01-24-2013, 11:04 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Strawman argument. I said he has never said he's going to bolt, which he hasn't. He's merely suggested that for the off chance that somehow Holland manages to clog up (He won't, and that's a $1,000,000 bet I'd easily take if I had the money) the forward position even after FA departures, that the KHL may be an option he utilizes. He didn't, nor has he ever said "I hate the AHL, I hate this organization, and the moment my contract is up I'm outa here." It's all a bunch of BS whipped up by the Holland haters so they have more ammunition to drink the hatorade with. He has a spot next year. Get over it. Holland has a plan with transitioning prospects onto the team. It doesn't involve throwing them all at once to the wolves.
Gentleman's bet he doesn't play more than 41 games next year (half of a regular sized season)

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01-24-2013, 11:06 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
why do people always say this? I guess context doesn't exist when it comes to Hudler bashing

he was improving every year then after his contract year he went to the KHL for a year

then he comes back and surprise surprise it takes him a year to adjust back to being in the NHL
He scored 6 points in his first 30 games back. Then he scored 31 points in his next 43, which is pace for 59 in 82. Last year he scored BELOW his displayed skill level from his previous two NHL seasons (if you remove that 30-game stretch) because he spent more than half of the season on the point on the second unit, when he is most effective down low on the PP. He likely is in the same scoring range as Filppula (65-70) if he plays 2:30 or so at forward all year on the PP. Does anyone here think Nyquist is in the 50-point range, let alone the 60-70 point range?

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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Big surprise.

When Hudler played with top 6 linemates, he produced like a top sixer.
Hudler's career year came playing just over ten minutes at even strength and three minutes on the PP. He played primarily with a yet-to-breakout Filppula (at center, playing conservatively) and Mikael Samuelsson. He scored 57 points playing less than 14 minutes per game, with guys who if you are very generous were 2/3 tweeners at the time.

Quote:
Hudler had physical limitations. So did Holmstrom.
So did Gretzky, Fleury, Kariya, Brett Hull, and many others. And there are many who were "the complete package" who did squat in the NHL or never even made it. Remember Jose Charbonneau? He was an excellent skater, and was supposed to be highly skilled offensively and good defensively. He went 12th overall to Montreal in 1985. Played 71 games and scored 22 points. Poor, limited Hudler already had a better career at the age of 24.

It's true Nyquist has a better overall tool kit than Hudler. But he has yet to show that he can put it to use in the NHL; the only reason Hudler wasn't a regular at 19 was because of his size. He made the team immediately after his draft, but was then sent down because Bowman felt he wasn't strong enough and needed to gain strength - which he did. Nyquist is having problems now, at the age Hudler made the Wings permanently. Given that fact alone, it's hard to give credence to the argument that Nyquist is currently better than Hudler is now, if he isn't better than Hudler was as a rookie. After all, Hudler had to compete with a much more difficult group of forwards and still forced his way in.

Quote:
So do other Red Wings forwards. I don't have a really hard time with Hudler being moved because Babcock didn't like him, so why not move him somewhere where he can succeed?
Look at the Wings' offensive production over the past few games. Look at the Wings' even strength scoring from last year, and who was doing it. Look at which line was the most productive last year.

You're ok with just letting Hudler walk in his prime and replacing him with Samuelsson? That's fine and dandy management?

Quote:
But this guy produced here. And even when he sucked two years ago, when he played regular minutes with Datsyuk, he was a good producer.
Yes. He was such a good producer on that line that he outproduced Datsyuk.

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01-24-2013, 11:07 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
I said, and I quote, That Tatar NEVER stated he was going to bolt for the KHL. He never said he's going to bolt for the KHL. He said it's an option down the line, but he didn't know. That's far from certainty that he's going to absolutely bolt. It's a strawman argument that you're making.


I didn't call you a Holland hater. To say that Tatar doesn't have a roster spot next year is complete BS, and I will call you on it. There are four forward position spots to fill next year. Cleary will not be resigned. Even if Filppula is resigned (I don't think he will), that leaves 3 positions. Two of those WILL be filled by Tatar and Nyquist, unless they are traded. To argue against this is arguing against common sense.
And who would have thought we would fill Nyquist's spot this year around this time last year?

It is far from certain.

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01-25-2013, 12:04 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
I didn't call you a Holland hater. To say that Tatar doesn't have a roster spot next year is complete BS, and I will call you on it. There are four forward position spots to fill next year. Cleary will not be resigned. Even if Filppula is resigned (I don't think he will), that leaves 3 positions. Two of those WILL be filled by Tatar and Nyquist, unless they are traded. To argue against this is arguing against common sense.
Sorry but which four spots are you referring to? Cleary is gone, we all pray. I'd be really surprised if they let Filp walk. Miller and Brunner are the only other expiring contracts up front, and Brunner probably gets another shot unless he completely craps the bed the rest of the season (unlikely).

Cleary, Miller. 2 spots in the bottom 6. Honestly, I think the odds of Bert or Samuelsson getting bought out is a long shot. If Filp and Brunner are re-signed, we have our 12 forwards under contract without Nyquist or Tatar. Mursak is an RFA and I have no clue what will happen to him. Emmerton probably rolls as an extra and it looks like this:

D-B-Z
Franzen-Filp-Nyquist
Bertuzzi-Helm-Samuelsson
Tootoo-Abdelkader-Eaves
Emmerton
(TSL?)

Expecting Holland to let relatively young, in their prime legit top 6 forwards walk for a rookie like Tatar is a bit much to expect from him. Barring a trade, sad as it sounds, I don't see Tatar's spot solidified the same way you do, and I love the kid. It's just not the way Holland is running ship right now.

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01-25-2013, 12:35 AM
  #112
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Sorry but which four spots are you referring to? Cleary is gone, we all pray. I'd be really surprised if they let Filp walk. Miller and Brunner are the only other expiring contracts up front, and Brunner probably gets another shot unless he completely craps the bed the rest of the season (unlikely).

Cleary, Miller. 2 spots in the bottom 6. Honestly, I think the odds of Bert or Samuelsson getting bought out is a long shot. If Filp and Brunner are re-signed, we have our 12 forwards under contract without Nyquist or Tatar. Mursak is an RFA and I have no clue what will happen to him. Emmerton probably rolls as an extra and it looks like this:

D-B-Z
Franzen-Filp-Nyquist
Bertuzzi-Helm-Samuelsson
Tootoo-Abdelkader-Eaves
Emmerton
(TSL?)

Expecting Holland to let relatively young, in their prime legit top 6 forwards walk for a rookie like Tatar is a bit much to expect from him. Barring a trade, sad as it sounds, I don't see Tatar's spot solidified the same way you do, and I love the kid. It's just not the way Holland is running ship right now.
Let's look at this logically.

We have to cut down this year's roster to 14 forwards before looking at who won't return for next year.

So:
Flip/Dats/Bert
Franzen/Z/Brunner
Cleary/Helm/Sammy
Miller/Abdelkader/Tootoo
Eaves
Emmerton

Mursak has clearly been the odd man out. So we can assume he's gone. Now let's look at who's going for next year:

?/Dats/Bert
Franzen/Z/?
?/Helm/Sammy
?/Abby/Tootoo
Eaves
Emmerton

I count four spots.

Now we must use logic. They of course would retain Flip and Brunner if possible assuming Brunner works out. After that, they have the option to retain Miller and run two checking lines, or they can bring in Nyquist and Tatar and shift to three scoring lines. Maybe something like this:

Bert/Dats/Tatar
Nyquist/Z/Brunner
Franzen/Flip/Sammy
Abby/Helm/Tootoo
Eaves
Emmerton

Z, Dats, Franzen, Flip, Brunner, Sammy, and perhaps Nyquist/Tatar will all get their PP time. Flip, Z, and Dats would also likely see PK time.

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01-25-2013, 12:38 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Let's look at this logically.
If you think Babcock will play Tatar over Eaves, or even Emmerton, I can't help you. There is no logic in that. (Not that I wouldn't prefer to see the kids get ice, but do you even watch the Wings? . Babs is a big veteran supporter.)

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01-25-2013, 12:52 AM
  #114
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Let's look at this logically.
Your logic is sound but it's no guarantee that Tatar has solidified his spot for next season, especially when his ELC still runs until 2014-2015, that's all I'm saying. With all that cap space they could easily look to make a splash in FA, then Tatar really has no shot.

There's a probability he doesn't make the team.

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01-25-2013, 01:08 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Now we must use logic. They of course would retain Flip and Brunner if possible assuming Brunner works out. After that, they have the option to retain Miller and run two checking lines, or they can bring in Nyquist and Tatar and shift to three scoring lines. Maybe something like this:

Bert/Dats/Tatar
Nyquist/Z/Brunner
Franzen/Flip/Sammy
Abby/Helm/Tootoo
Eaves
Emmerton

Z, Dats, Franzen, Flip, Brunner, Sammy, and perhaps Nyquist/Tatar will all get their PP time. Flip, Z, and Dats would also likely see PK time.
Andersson will get a new contract making him a one-way player. Nyquist isn't a question either, he's also up for a new contract. Tatar on the other hand is not, which will push him to the outside again.

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01-25-2013, 02:00 AM
  #116
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Andersson will get a new contract making him a one-way player. Nyquist isn't a question either, he's also up for a new contract. Tatar on the other hand is not, which will push him to the outside again.
One-way contract is not the same as not being waiver exempt. It just means you get paid NHL money in the AHL, and with the new CBA that if your cap number is more than $900k then part of your cap hit counts against your team.

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Originally Posted by kuick View Post
Your logic is sound but it's no guarantee that Tatar has solidified his spot for next season, especially when his ELC still runs until 2014-2015, that's all I'm saying. With all that cap space they could easily look to make a splash in FA, then Tatar really has no shot.

There's a probability he doesn't make the team.
If there's an FA splash, it will be on D. Filppula and Howard will command raises as well; there won't be a significant amount of cap space left over after all of that. Currently at 10-4-1 with around $19m. Betting low, say Filppula $5m, Howard $4m. Now it's 11-4-2, $10m. Brunner at $2m. 12-4-2 with $8m. $1m Kindl, $1m Smith. 12-6-2 and $6m left. Uh oh, don't even have enough for Edler now if we want a spare forward. $1m Nyquist, $840k Tatar. 14-6-2, a bit over $4m left to sign another defenseman. Can always sign Edler at $6m and Huskins (or Lashoff) at $1m and dump Quincey's ~$4m...

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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
If you think Babcock will play Tatar over Eaves, or even Emmerton, I can't help you. There is no logic in that. (Not that I wouldn't prefer to see the kids get ice, but do you even watch the Wings? . Babs is a big veteran supporter.)
The roster I listed was an "end of season" roster... meaning the best players were in the lineup. Also, what are the chances of Eaves staying healthy for the full season, realistically?


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01-25-2013, 03:09 AM
  #117
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One-way contract is not the same as not being waiver exempt. It just means you get paid NHL money in the AHL, and with the new CBA that if your cap number is more than $900k then part of your cap hit counts against your team.
Yes I know he will be exempt for like 80 games/1 more year, but in essence the one-way deal will keep him up on the roster over guys like Tatar and Sheahan. Much like our good friend Emmerton. Plus he's ripe now, 24 years old! Can't have these 22 year olds running around.

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01-25-2013, 05:47 AM
  #118
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If there's an FA splash, it will be on D (Edler will likely be target #1). Filppula and Howard will command raises as well; there won't be a significant amount of cap space left over after all of that. Currently at 10-4-1 with around $19m. Betting low, say Filppula $5m, Howard $4m. Now it's 11-4-2, $10m. Brunner at $2m. 12-4-2 with $8m. $1m Kindl, $1m Smith. 12-6-2 and $6m left. Uh oh, don't even have enough for Edler now if we want a spare forward. $1m Nyquist, $840k Tatar. 14-6-2, a bit over $4m left to sign another defenseman. Can always sign Edler at $6m and Huskins (or Lashoff) at $1m and dump Quincey's ~$4m...
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1326981

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01-25-2013, 07:24 AM
  #119
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I know... for some reason I keep forgetting. I was posting on the Calgary board about whether Mason Raymond might sign with the Flames, and somehow my brain made the same mistake.

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01-25-2013, 08:42 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Let's look at this logically.

We have to cut down this year's roster to 14 forwards before looking at who won't return for next year.

So:
Flip/Dats/Bert
Franzen/Z/Brunner
Cleary/Helm/Sammy
Miller/Abdelkader/Tootoo
Eaves
Emmerton

Mursak has clearly been the odd man out. So we can assume he's gone. Now let's look at who's going for next year:

?/Dats/Bert
Franzen/Z/?
?/Helm/Sammy
?/Abby/Tootoo
Eaves
Emmerton

I count four spots.

Now we must use logic. They of course would retain Flip and Brunner if possible assuming Brunner works out. After that, they have the option to retain Miller and run two checking lines, or they can bring in Nyquist and Tatar and shift to three scoring lines. Maybe something like this:

Bert/Dats/Tatar
Nyquist/Z/Brunner
Franzen/Flip/Sammy
Abby/Helm/Tootoo
Eaves
Emmerton

Z, Dats, Franzen, Flip, Brunner, Sammy, and perhaps Nyquist/Tatar will all get their PP time. Flip, Z, and Dats would also likely see PK time.
FILPPULA WILL NOT BE A 3RD LINE CENTER AGAIN UNTIL HE'S OLD!!! Helm can center a 3rd line scoring, he's a decent playmaker.

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01-25-2013, 09:12 AM
  #121
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FILPPULA WILL NOT BE A 3RD LINE CENTER AGAIN UNTIL HE'S OLD!!! Helm can center a 3rd line scoring, he's a decent playmaker.
Maybe a small small chance in the playoffs, depending on the opponent. If it helps you line up better against the other team, for example the Blues who roll with Berglund/Steen as their 3rd line center and have a great top9 but not a clear first line, it could help to spread the wealth around more than you usually would.

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01-25-2013, 09:26 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
There are four forward position spots to fill next year. Cleary will not be resigned. Even if Filppula is resigned (I don't think he will), that leaves 3 positions. Two of those WILL be filled by Tatar and Nyquist, unless they are traded. To argue against this is arguing against common sense.
You really think we let FLIP walk?? really?? I would call him our 3rd best forward!

Flip, Cleary, Brunner, Miller, Mursak are 5 contracts that expire.

Flip / Brunner are on our top 6, they will be resigned likely.
Seems we all like Miller, so he is resigned.
Mursak we want to give the chance to still? So maybe?
Cleary can improve this season and be resigned.

I do not see ANY positions on forward as being a lock to any player.
I.E. there may not be places for any rookies next year. That is if Holland really screws up. We need Tatar and Nyquist to get their chance now. Get them some experience and THEN do one of 3 things.

Release them, trade them, or sign them for longer. (seems dumb to do the first 2 options without giving them a full season in the NHL).

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01-25-2013, 09:40 AM
  #123
BinCookin
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Also regarding all this talk about Hudler...

I think he proved he was a viable 2nd liner. Say what you will about him, he produced some fairly nice numbers.

I thought we let him walk because his demands were too high, but mostly because he walked the two years previously to the KHL, and then we just really didn't like him anymore. At least not like him enough for 4-5 year 4million deal (what he wanted) - so we let him sign in calgary.

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01-25-2013, 09:50 AM
  #124
RedMenace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Also regarding all this talk about Hudler...

I think he proved he was a viable 2nd liner. Say what you will about him, he produced some fairly nice numbers.

I thought we let him walk because his demands were too high, but mostly because he walked the two years previously to the KHL, and then we just really didn't like him anymore. At least not like him enough for 4-5 year 4million deal (what he wanted) - so we let him sign in calgary.
Holland should have kept Hudler for $4m, even if it meant being "smaller" in the lineup. 50-60 points is nothing to sneeze at.

Also, I can't see any way that Filppula gets more than $4m from the Wings; $5m would be insanity.

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01-25-2013, 09:53 AM
  #125
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Gonna throw my hands up in surrender if we resign Cleary next year.

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