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Who benefitted most from his line mates?

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Old
01-24-2013, 03:09 PM
  #51
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How much were Gretzky's stats bloated by playing with Kurri? Gretzky scored over 170 points six times with Kurri, and was on pace for a seventh but missed 16 games injured.

He peaked at 168 without Kurri, and that was when teammate Nicholls (previously mentioned in the thread) hit 150.

And then there's Paul Coffey. Something that has been noted is that Gretzky, Lemieux, and Fedorov all peaked when they played with Coffey. I haven't looked into it, but I wonder how much of an effect Coffey had on Lindros during his time in Philadelphia. It's a very interesting coincidence with the others.

One wonders: if we must attribute some of Kurri's success to Gretzky, why should we not attribute some of Gretzky's success to Kurri? Or to Coffey? Or some of Lemieux's success to Coffey?

Going back to Bryan Trottier, it was suggested that he was a "rider" on Bossy and Potvin. In Trottier's second highest scoring season (129), Potvin barely cleared 60 points. In Trottier's third-best season (123), neither Potvin nor Bossy broke 100.

A player who I think probably falls into this argument but I think is an interesting discussion would be right wing Larry Aurie.

Aurie played with HHOF center Marty Barry for Barry's four years in Detroit. During that time, Barry was top-four in scoring three times and Aurie was top-four twice. Aurie also led the league in goals and was named to the First Team in 1937, an honor he shared with Barry. They also won two Stanley Cups together. It's notable to state that Barry was a far more productive player than Aurie while Barry was in Boston. However, during their four years together Barry was actually outscored by Aurie by four points, 158-154. Furthering that, Aurie's number was officially retired by the club immediately after he retired (he actually ended up returning to play one more game the following season). No action was ever taken or even suggested regarding Barry's, even though the evidence suggests Barry was just as great with the Wings and greater overall.

Did Barry drag Aurie's stats up? Or did playing with Aurie extend Barry's ability to be productive? (see Brett Hull with Mike Modano and Pavel Datsyuk)

When Gordie Howe came to Detroit, people said he might be "the next Larry Aurie". And this was a team that had just suffered the loss of Syd Howe, who retired as the all-time scoring leader.
Theres a difference between being a 'rider' and scoring more points than you normally would have. In 1977 trottier scored 72 points, in 1980 potvin gets injured and trottier's point totals drop by 30 points. Those seasons sandwiched his two seasons where he was an elite scorer. In 1979 trottier doesnt score 134 if hes playing with an average defenseman and an average player on his wing instead of bossy.

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01-24-2013, 04:09 PM
  #52
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Bexlyspeed View Post
the one who scored the biggest benefits of the Trottier/Bossy tandem was Clark Gillies, I still cant believe he is in the Hall of Fame, a solid player but a HOF'er? i dont think so. and im an Isles fan. hell i was even shocked when they retired his number!
an interesting case, in that gillies' stats don't seem to have been helped too much, even with two annual top five scorers on his line. at least not compared to brent sutter and tonelli's statistically spikes the year they were on bossy's line.

and yet he's in the hall of fame. i was too young to have seen the dynasty, but yeah from afar it seems like if gillies is in the hall of fame you want to ask why not tonelli or bourne or goring? seems like gillies is getting a lot of credit for his contributions to the trio grande line, which i don't know well enough to comment on one way or the other.


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The effect Oates had on Hull is largely overstated. Hull scored 72 goals playing with Peter Zezel. All you had to do in the early 90's was get the puck on Hull's stick. Oates and Hull both saw benefits from playing together.
not totally accurate to say hull scored 72 goals with zezel. oates was his PP center that year. not to say that hull didn't score an awful lot with zezel (46 ES goals, which is ridiculous), but compare to the next year. in '90 hull scores 46 ES goals (zezel) and 27 PP goals (oates). in '91 hull scores 57 ES goals (with oates, and that's the most of anyone ever other than gretzky's 92 goal year), and 29 PP goals (also oates). point being, at the scale of goals hull was scoring at his peak the oates effect isn't enormous-- hull is still scoring ES goals at an almost unprecedented rate with zezel (top 20 single season ES goals all time). but on the other hand a swing of 12 ES goals is not small either.

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01-24-2013, 05:56 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i always thought it was sheppard with fedorov, and dino with yzerman.
That was the case under Murray in 1992-93, but it was reversed by Bowman the next season. Kozlov/Fedorov/Ciccarelli and Primeau/Yzerman/Sheppard were the most common lines until Sheppard was traded for Larionov.

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01-24-2013, 06:03 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
That was the case under Murray in 1992-93, but it was reversed by Bowman the next season. Kozlov/Fedorov/Ciccarelli and Primeau/Yzerman/Sheppard were the most common lines until Sheppard was traded for Larionov.
thanks. i've learned something today.

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01-24-2013, 06:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Theres a difference between being a 'rider' and scoring more points than you normally would have. In 1977 trottier scored 72 points, in 1980 potvin gets injured and trottier's point totals drop by 30 points. Those seasons sandwiched his two seasons where he was an elite scorer. In 1979 trottier doesnt score 134 if hes playing with an average defenseman and an average player on his wing instead of bossy.
Ok, if we're doing things that way what percentage of Mark Messier's stats can we attribute to the incredible number of HHOFers he played with during his career? After all, a great number of them were better than him overall, and others were better at least during some/all seasons played together.

What if, instead of Gretzky and Coffey, the Oilers had an average defenseman and average first-line center? What does Messier's career look like then?

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01-24-2013, 06:16 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok, if we're doing things that way what percentage of Mark Messier's stats can we attribute to the incredible number of HHOFers he played with during his career? After all, a great number of them were better than him overall, and others were better at least during some/all seasons played together.

What if, instead of Gretzky and Coffey, the Oilers had an average defenseman and average first-line center? What does Messier's career look like then?
I have no problems with someone dissecting messier's accomplishments, hes always been overrated to me and the lastest magazine of 100 greatest canadian hockey players helps confirm how overrated he truly is. Some of the lists had messier over gordie howe for gods sakes. Eric Lindros and Sidney Crosby are much better offensive players than messier.

I'm not picking on someone like bossy because he was scoring even when sutter and tonelli were on his line. Bossy is legit. Bobby Clarke was the only megastar on his line when he was winning harts. Sakic was scoring 100 as a 37 year old, yzerman was scoring year after year with bums. Trottier and Messier were boosted IMO to a certain degree.

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01-24-2013, 06:16 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok, if we're doing things that way what percentage of Mark Messier's stats can we attribute to the incredible number of HHOFers he played with during his career? After all, a great number of them were better than him overall, and others were better at least during some/all seasons played together.

What if, instead of Gretzky and Coffey, the Oilers had an average defenseman and average first-line center? What does Messier's career look like then?
Arguably better, since Messier exploded after Gretzky was no longer on the team and he was given prime offensive opportunities for the first time.

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01-24-2013, 06:42 PM
  #58
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Arguably better, since Messier exploded after Gretzky was no longer on the team and he was given prime offensive opportunities for the first time.
One theory that I've touted around for awhile is that everybody became better because of Gretzky even after he left.

What are the chances that the Oilers draft three HoFers between the '79 and '80 drafts plus Glenn Anderson and Kevin Lowe? Did they happen to have the best/luckiest drafting on all time or is there something else in effect?

My theory is that playing with Gretzky didn't just improve the performance of players, but just all around made them better players. More on, that Messier would not be a HoFer if not for the experience of playing with Gretzky.

I know from my own standpoint that playing with players so much better than me has not just improved my performance while playing with them, but has taught me things that made me better on my own.


I think this extends into a lot of dynasties. They're quarterbacked by two or three amazing players that made the other good players into great players.


Now, I don't have any empirical data, but it certainly does help to make sense of how a team like the Oilers could get so good so quickly.

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01-24-2013, 06:57 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
One theory that I've touted around for awhile is that everybody became better because of Gretzky even after he left.

What are the chances that the Oilers draft three HoFers between the '79 and '80 drafts plus Glenn Anderson and Kevin Lowe? Did they happen to have the best/luckiest drafting on all time or is there something else in effect?

My theory is that playing with Gretzky didn't just improve the performance of players, but just all around made them better players. More on, that Messier would not be a HoFer if not for the experience of playing with Gretzky.

I know from my own standpoint that playing with players so much better than me has not just improved my performance while playing with them, but has taught me things that made me better on my own.


I think this extends into a lot of dynasties. They're quarterbacked by two or three amazing players that made the other good players into great players.


Now, I don't have any empirical data, but it certainly does help to make sense of how a team like the Oilers could get so good so quickly.
It's quite possible. If anyone could turn other players into better players permanently, it was Wayne Gretzky.

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01-24-2013, 07:44 PM
  #60
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Mark Streit did benefit a lot from playing with Markov , as did many defensemen. (I understand this isn't a big deal and of any importance per say but had to throw it out there).

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01-25-2013, 01:09 AM
  #61
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Arguably better, since Messier exploded after Gretzky was no longer on the team and he was given prime offensive opportunities for the first time.
I don't agree with that.

He had one huge season where he played an insane amount of minutes. Other than that, his per-game numbers are worse than those during the Gretzky era.

Actually, there is a perfect example of what would happen with Mark Messier if Edmonton didn't have Paul Coffey or Wayne Gretzky, and instead had only an average first-line center.

In 1988-89, Jimmy Carson was Edmonton's first line center, and finished second in team scoring and ninth in the league with 100 points, two behind team leader and 2nd-team RW Kurri. Messier posted 94 points from the second line, playing - as always - with Glenn Anderson on the right side. Esa Tikkanen and Craig Simpson were the first and second line left-wingers, with 78 in 67 and 76 in 66, respectively.

I think we can all agree that Carson was pretty solidly average in his time as a first-line center in LA and Edmonton. And even aside from that, the Messier "explosion" that happened the following season, which itself is a massive outlier in his career, would likely not have happened had Carson not walked out on the team four games in due to "the pressure to be Gretzky". Messier never gets the opportunity to win that Hart trophy if Carson is still in Edmonton.

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01-25-2013, 01:20 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I don't agree with that.

He had one huge season where he played an insane amount of minutes. Other than that, his per-game numbers are worse than those during the Gretzky era.

Actually, there is a perfect example of what would happen with Mark Messier if Edmonton didn't have Paul Coffey or Wayne Gretzky, and instead had only an average first-line center.

In 1988-89, Jimmy Carson was Edmonton's first line center, and finished second in team scoring and ninth in the league with 100 points, two behind team leader and 2nd-team RW Kurri. Messier posted 94 points from the second line, playing - as always - with Glenn Anderson on the right side. Esa Tikkanen and Craig Simpson were the first and second line left-wingers, with 78 in 67 and 76 in 66, respectively.

I think we can all agree that Carson was pretty solidly average in his time as a first-line center in LA and Edmonton. And even aside from that, the Messier "explosion" that happened the following season, which itself is a massive outlier in his career, would likely not have happened had Carson not walked out on the team four games in due to "the pressure to be Gretzky". Messier never gets the opportunity to win that Hart trophy if Carson is still in Edmonton.
Points per game top 10 finishes

Messier with Gretzky:

1982-83 NHL 1.38 (7)
1983-84 NHL 1.38 (10)
1986-87 NHL 1.39 (3)
1987-88 NHL 1.44 (8)

Messier without Gretzky:

1988-89 NHL 1.31 (10)
1989-90 NHL 1.63 (3)
1991-92 NHL 1.35 (7)
1995-96 NHL 1.34 (10)
1996-97 NHL 1.18 (7)

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01-25-2013, 01:29 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
What are the chances that the Oilers draft three HoFers between the '79 and '80 drafts plus Glenn Anderson and Kevin Lowe? Did they happen to have the best/luckiest drafting on all time or is there something else in effect?
Well, there's the 1989 Detroit draft you can compare it to...

Quote:
My theory is that playing with Gretzky didn't just improve the performance of players, but just all around made them better players. More on, that Messier would not be a HoFer if not for the experience of playing with Gretzky.

I know from my own standpoint that playing with players so much better than me has not just improved my performance while playing with them, but has taught me things that made me better on my own.

I think this extends into a lot of dynasties. They're quarterbacked by two or three amazing players that made the other good players into great players.

Now, I don't have any empirical data, but it certainly does help to make sense of how a team like the Oilers could get so good so quickly.
I think this is pretty much right on target. The idea that skilled players and veterans, etc. will have a positive effect on younger players is not just a hypothesis; it's something that teams build on and that NHLers will talk about. Examples? Chris Osgood has credited Mike Vernon with making him a better goalie. Nicklas Lidstrom has given credit to Brad McCrimmon (RIP) and Mark Howe. Sergei Fedorov and Slava Kozlov have credited Igor Larionov.

And these are only a handful of examples. Think of your favorte team, and veteran leaders over the past few years. What have they taught the young players on your team? How has it affected those young players, and the team?

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01-25-2013, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
One theory that I've touted around for awhile is that everybody became better because of Gretzky even after he left.

What are the chances that the Oilers draft three HoFers between the '79 and '80 drafts plus Glenn Anderson and Kevin Lowe? Did they happen to have the best/luckiest drafting on all time or is there something else in effect?

My theory is that playing with Gretzky didn't just improve the performance of players, but just all around made them better players. More on, that Messier would not be a HoFer if not for the experience of playing with Gretzky.

I know from my own standpoint that playing with players so much better than me has not just improved my performance while playing with them, but has taught me things that made me better on my own.


I think this extends into a lot of dynasties. They're quarterbacked by two or three amazing players that made the other good players into great players.


Now, I don't have any empirical data, but it certainly does help to make sense of how a team like the Oilers could get so good so quickly.
This has always been my take as well.

Kurri/Messier etc. might have been great individually after Gretzky left, but I highly doubt they would have been great individually without the time they spent with Gretzky. Playing in that Gretzky-led offensive powerhouse made them into stars far beyond what they ever would have been if they'd been drafted by, say, Hartford or St. Louis.

The situation often makes (or breaks) the player. Compare the relative talents at age 20-22 of Pavel Datsyuk and Robert Nilsson (two very similar-style players with similar toolboxes), and the situations they ended up in.

________

As for the original question, Shutt and Gillies take the cake. Guys who were plainly carried to the HHOF by their megastar linemates.

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01-25-2013, 01:47 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Points per game top 10 finishes

Messier with Gretzky:

1982-83 NHL 1.38 (7)
1983-84 NHL 1.38 (10)
1986-87 NHL 1.39 (3)
1987-88 NHL 1.44 (8)

Messier without Gretzky:

1988-89 NHL 1.31 (10)
1989-90 NHL 1.63 (3)
1991-92 NHL 1.35 (7)
1995-96 NHL 1.34 (10)
1996-97 NHL 1.18 (7)
1.38>1.35

In 83 and 84, he was playing LW on the second line, but played with Gretzky on the PP. In 87 and 88 he was playing center on the second line, and thus facing the #2 unit in both cases.

His post-Gretzky explosion is not something that his Gretzky-era stats predict, even moreso if you include the Carson year. If you remove Carson's walkout and replace him with an equivalent center who doesn't quit, Messier likely is in the 1.30 range again.

The thing is... hitting that consistently is good. Maybe HHOF-worthy hitting it repeatedly over a long career. But not "all-time great, one of the best forwards ever" the way he gets treated. I guarantee you, if Messier had put up exactly the same offensive and defensive performances through 1992, but Gretzky wasn't on his team, he wins zero Hart trophies. It's been 21 years, and I still can't conceive of a logical justification for Messier to win in 1992, and the only logical justification I can think of for 1990 is the fact that the Oilers didn't have Jimmy Carson anymore. Which... just... come on.

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01-25-2013, 01:51 AM
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1.38>1.35
In other news, the 1980s was higher scoring than the 1990s.

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01-25-2013, 02:03 AM
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Scored 25 goals as a rookie playing with Billy Harris.
He's a regular Trent Hunter.

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01-25-2013, 07:33 AM
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He's a regular Trent Hunter.
Excellent comparison. Question, do you watch hockey?

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01-25-2013, 11:25 AM
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In other news, the 1980s was higher scoring than the 1990s.
How much higher scoring were the 1980s than the early 90s? Not much. Very comparable offensive environment. And the biggest difference in offense is that the bottom-liners were scoring less on-average in the 90s; the early 90s had MORE "high-scoring" forwards despite a slight decrease in overall goals. 1992-93 is a great example - lower average goals per game than the 80s, but more 100-point scorers than any year ever. And there were guys like Lindros and Fedorov who were on-pace to do it. In the 80s, you had maybe 8 or 10 100-point players. Not 20+.

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01-25-2013, 11:45 AM
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Statistics and high scoring era to low scoring era are very misleading.What one has to ask is how there elite players were used when the game became out of hand.Were gretzey and coffey on the pp when they had a 6 to 3 game or not?Many times Bowman would rest Lafleur against poor competition and give him more ice time against the good clubs.Coaching and how player were used is an important formula that is not discussed.

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01-25-2013, 11:48 AM
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Kevin Stevens?

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01-25-2013, 11:57 AM
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Kevin was an essential part of the penguins he had serious substance abuse issues which curtailed his career.All the best to him

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01-25-2013, 12:22 PM
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Scored 25 goals as a rookie playing with Billy Harris.
Willi Plett scored 33 goals as a rookie with the Flames, what's your point?

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01-25-2013, 12:37 PM
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Heatley isn't exactly 'great', but I assume a lot of his success could be attributed to Spezza/Alfredsson.

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01-25-2013, 01:19 PM
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First players I thought of were Charlie Simmer and Clarke Gillies but then I thought of the reversal repurcussions for the other line mates. Do Trottier and Bossy get all of those points without Gillies winning every corner battle? Do Dionne and Taylor get all of those points without Simmer being such a good trigger man? The obvious is to go with the perceived weakest linemate skill-wise but it doesn't always work. In the end I'd have to go with one year wonders like Warren Young who drew the winning straw to play with Mario. One name that hasn't been mentioned is Errol Thompson with the Leafs. He had his best years playing future Hall of Famers Sittler and MacDonald.

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