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Old
01-25-2013, 01:02 AM
  #76
MAK19
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Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post
What's so special about Bishop? He's 26 years old, played a total of 23 career NHL games, and has a losing record. If he was so special the Blues would never have traded him. He's a backup goaltender, nothing more nothing less.
He's the tallest goalie in the league. That's why he's special.

He's also never had a chance to play to play a significant amount of games in the NHL. Don't you think it's a little wee bit unfair to dismiss his ability to be a starter just like that?

The guy's been dominant at every level. What makes you think he can't be an adequate #1 goalie in the NHL? I'd love to hear you're reasoning Mr. Almighty Flames Fan.

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01-25-2013, 01:09 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
He's the tallest goalie in the league. That's why he's special.

He's also never had a chance to play to play a significant amount of games in the NHL. Don't you think it's a little wee bit unfair to dismiss his ability to be a starter just like that?

The guy's been dominant at every level. What makes you think he can't be an adequate #1 goalie in the NHL? I'd love to hear you're reasoning Mr. Almighty Flames Fan.
Same reason you some of you Sens fan calls Irving nothing

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01-25-2013, 01:11 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by western redmen View Post
Same reason you some of you Sens fan calls Irving nothing
Bishop >> Irving

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01-25-2013, 01:13 AM
  #79
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Does his nhl numbers prove that the difference is that much?

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01-25-2013, 01:56 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by western redmen View Post
Does his nhl numbers prove that the difference is that much?
Too small a sample size for either guy to use their NHL stats to tell.

If you wanted proof that "the difference is that much", I'd say the fact that Murray is publicly asking for more than he paid for Bishop (the 2nd rounder), and the fact that there is apparently multiple teams still interested in him despite the pricetag... while at the same time Irving passed through waivers untouched.... THAT is probably a telling sign that the difference is pretty significant.

You want to find out the difference between two guys, look at the market for their services within the same time frame. It's a fairly foolproof method of at least "ballparking" at their true value.

... And the market currently says Bishop is a far better goalie. Whether that holds true in the long run is another question entirely, but for the moment, it seems within NHL management circles, the safe money is on Bish.

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01-25-2013, 02:04 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by western redmen View Post
Does his nhl numbers prove that the difference is that much?
Not really. Irving has a better SV% in his debut season than Bishop had in any of his first 3 seasons. Bishop's GAA in every season was better than Irving's debut year.

Of note Bishop played 13 games and started 10 of his first 2 seasons, Irving played in and started 7 in his debut season, but despite playing 220 more minutes in those time frames, Bishop only faced about 40 more shots. Irving was absolutely peppered in his 7 games.

Draw conclusions however you see fit, but I don't see a big argument that Bishop is miles ahead of Irving, especially when the Flames backup is unlikely to see more than 10 games.

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01-25-2013, 02:09 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Too small a sample size for either guy to use their NHL stats to tell.

If you wanted proof that "the difference is that much", I'd say the fact that Murray is publicly asking for more than he paid for Bishop (the 2nd rounder), and the fact that there is apparently multiple teams still interested in him despite the pricetag... while at the same time Irving passed through waivers untouched.... THAT is probably a telling sign that the difference is pretty significant.

You want to find out the difference between two guys, look at the market for their services within the same time frame. It's a fairly foolproof method of at least "ballparking" at their true value.

... And the market currently says Bishop is a far better goalie. Whether that holds true in the long run is another question entirely, but for the moment, it seems within NHL management circles, the safe money is on Bish.
Better question as a Flames fan is this.

For the 10 (at most) games the backup will play this year, is the difference such a large upgrade that it would be worth giving up at least the value of a second round pick?

There is no question on the open market right now Bishop is worth more, I don't think a single Flames fan will dispute that. However I think many (or at least I do) think that the cost to upgrade from Irving to Bishop is too significant for the minimal number of games the backup will play.

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01-25-2013, 02:15 AM
  #83
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I dont see why Calgary would currently need Bishop.

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01-25-2013, 02:31 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
Better question as a Flames fan is this.

For the 10 (at most) games the backup will play this year, is the difference such a large upgrade that it would be worth giving up at least the value of a second round pick?

There is no question on the open market right now Bishop is worth more, I don't think a single Flames fan will dispute that. However I think many (or at least I do) think that the cost to upgrade from Irving to Bishop is too significant for the minimal number of games the backup will play.
Which is an absolutely valid point, if you think that Kiprussoff either:
a) won't be dealt in the next 12 or so months, or
b) doesn't slump during a shortened condensed season.

If the answer to both of the above points is "no", then I think we can all respect that opinion (even if we may disagree with it)... but the statements Calgary fans should be saying isn't "Bishop isn't worth the price", but "Bishop is probably the wrong player for us at the moment considering the price".

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01-25-2013, 02:52 AM
  #85
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Which is an absolutely valid point, if you think that Kiprussoff either:
a) won't be dealt in the next 12 or so months, or
b) doesn't slump during a shortened condensed season.

If the answer to both of the above points is "no", then I think we can all respect that opinion (even if we may disagree with it)... but the statements Calgary fans should be saying isn't "Bishop isn't worth the price", but "Bishop is probably the wrong player for us at the moment considering the price".
no disrespect to Bishop or Irving but even a slumping Kiprusoff will likely be a step up over either of the youngsters. Whether Kipper returns next year, I don't know.

But I do know that it is expected that Ramo will be signing with Calgary after his KHL season comes to a close and if push comes to shove we will see how he does returning to the NHL.

I am also not ready to give up on Irving either, I think he has alot of potential still and that he and Ramo could turn into a very good tandem. So I also know that I want to see how Irving does this year with the backup job being his before I would make any decisions on his future with the organization.

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01-25-2013, 03:56 AM
  #86
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Read the first page. But really all I needed to read was the proposal.....



I'm sorry Ottawa fans, as a flame fan here, I can't even begin to justify this proposal. Those who said butler isn't worth a third or bishop are more then right. Butler is a scrub, really hasn't impressed me at all since his arrival here and I'm as optimistic as it comes with the flames. Would much rather have our young guys get a roster spot then him. He's a waste of space.


And really....what does calgary need with bishop? We have a pretty good crop of young goalies. It would have a negative affect to trade for another one

Again, I'm sorry on behalf of flames fans. This conversation should have never happened

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01-25-2013, 04:01 AM
  #87
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Don't we have Ramo that wants to play in Calgary next season? Why do we need Bishop? In a shortened season we don't nearly need to worry about having a backup as much.

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01-25-2013, 05:42 AM
  #88
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Don't we have Ramo that wants to play in Calgary next season? Why do we need Bishop? In a shortened season we don't nearly need to worry about having a backup as much.
Um...really?

The backup goaltender position will be more important this year than any! Not even the youngest goalie can consistanly play well while playing 3 in 4 or 4 in 7. And with every game being essentially a 4 point game, you can't afford to use a bad backup and just throw the game away.

Its the exact OPPOSITE of what you said.

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01-25-2013, 07:46 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by SteelCitySensFan View Post
Um...really?

The backup goaltender position will be more important this year than any! Not even the youngest goalie can consistanly play well while playing 3 in 4 or 4 in 7. And with every game being essentially a 4 point game, you can't afford to use a bad backup and just throw the game away.

Its the exact OPPOSITE of what you said.
Oh man, this.

I'm totally fine if Calgary fans don't see the value in having a good backup this year: that's on them.

I mean, the Sens are about to play 5 games in the next 7 days. You can assume that there's going to be a game almost every two days, on average. Play your starter like a horse in a shortened, hyper-condensed season, that's just asking for trouble.

In any other year, I can see why having a good backup might be considered a luxury that you might be able to live without, but any team expecting to be a "bubble team" and expecting to fight it out for the 6-7-8 seeds in the postseason is going to want every point they can get, considering that like SteelCitySensFan said, every game is a 4-point game. EVERY game is against a team, in your own conference, trying to leapfrog you in the standings. Every start matters.

This year will probably be the most important year to have goaltending depth until the end of the now-current CBA.

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01-25-2013, 10:35 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Oh man, this.

I'm totally fine if Calgary fans don't see the value in having a good backup this year: that's on them.

I mean, the Sens are about to play 5 games in the next 7 days. You can assume that there's going to be a game almost every two days, on average. Play your starter like a horse in a shortened, hyper-condensed season, that's just asking for trouble.

In any other year, I can see why having a good backup might be considered a luxury that you might be able to live without, but any team expecting to be a "bubble team" and expecting to fight it out for the 6-7-8 seeds in the postseason is going to want every point they can get, considering that like SteelCitySensFan said, every game is a 4-point game. EVERY game is against a team, in your own conference, trying to leapfrog you in the standings. Every start matters.

This year will probably be the most important year to have goaltending depth until the end of the now-current CBA.
Sounds to me like Ottawa would be bat**** crazy in trading this guy. The Sens are a Stanley Cup contender (according to their fans anyway) and need that all important backup to win those close divisional and conference games. Every Flames fan knows their team is crap and is headed to the bottom of the league so why would we want to waste any assets on a player that won't help us any ways?

On Murray's demands, who cares what he says publicly? Anyone who trades for a player is going to demand more than what they originally gave up. That's called not wanting to look like an idiot. What he wants and what he gets are two different things. I'm sure he was hoping for more when he moved Heatley. What you say publicly and what you get in return are very different animals.

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Old
01-25-2013, 10:38 AM
  #91
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Sounds to me like Ottawa would be bat**** crazy in trading this guy.
We have crazy depth in nets right now. Anderson-Lehner-Bishop. It is what it is.

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01-25-2013, 10:52 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by flameaholic View Post

D Chris Butler


G Ben Bishop
3rd round pick

Calgary needs a reliable backup. Butler was recently a healthy scratch, and with Anton Babchuk due back soon, the Flames will have 8 defensemen on their roster.

Ottawa needs an experienced d-man.

Thoughts??
Hmm...id be ok with this. I mean, how much better is Bishop than Irving? I honestly don't know.

Butler could play on Ottawa's 2nd pairing comfortably. If they don't plan on using Bishop I think they are getting pretty good value in this trade.

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01-25-2013, 12:31 PM
  #93
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Id like Bouwmeester.
Assuming Bishop (although i have no idea why im assuming that) would be a part of a deal.
also assuming Calgary doesnt eat any of his salary - how does this deal get done.

there is no need to crap all over JB, just want to know what you'd pay for him from Ott perspective and what Calgary may want.

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01-25-2013, 01:11 PM
  #94
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Jbo sucks. Gonchar + 7th.

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01-25-2013, 01:48 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Jbo sucks. Gonchar + 7th.
why are we trading gonchar for him if he sucks? Gonchar doesnt suck - Gonchar is good.

he sort of seems like a good fit to me. his salary is irrelevant (other than to Melnyk personally) since we are so close to the floor and will likely be well under it at the end of the year with 95% of our team signed and no major increases in the near future.
we dont need him to be a bruiser, we dont need him to pile up points.
we just need him to eat minutes and play a fast "200 foot game"

he seems like a good defender, good passer and "exiter" of the defensive zone, he just doesnt do anything after the redline with the speed he generates but its not like he's a giveaway machine. he seems to routinely get the puck out through possession not just throwing it away.

I think he might be great value in strictly a hockey sense with respect to what you'd have to give up, and since $$$ (salary cap wise) are irrelevant to the sens......why not.

my .02 anyway.

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01-25-2013, 01:50 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by SteelCitySensFan View Post
Um...really?

The backup goaltender position will be more important this year than any! Not even the youngest goalie can consistanly play well while playing 3 in 4 or 4 in 7. And with every game being essentially a 4 point game, you can't afford to use a bad backup and just throw the game away.

Its the exact OPPOSITE of what you said.
The point is Kipper will play 35-40 games and Irving played well in his 7 games in the nhl most nights holding his team in the game it just doesn't make any sense to trade for another backup goalie when we need this year to see what we have in Irving. If Irving reproduces his numbers from last year we could have a solid backup for years and a potential #1b type goaltender to not give him a shot and trade for a guy that is most likely a #1b doesn't make any sense for this organization.

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01-25-2013, 02:39 PM
  #97
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why are we trading gonchar for him if he sucks? Gonchar doesnt suck - Gonchar is good.

he sort of seems like a good fit to me. his salary is irrelevant (other than to Melnyk personally) since we are so close to the floor and will likely be well under it at the end of the year with 95% of our team signed and no major increases in the near future.
we dont need him to be a bruiser, we dont need him to pile up points.
we just need him to eat minutes and play a fast "200 foot game"

he seems like a good defender, good passer and "exiter" of the defensive zone, he just doesnt do anything after the redline with the speed he generates but its not like he's a giveaway machine. he seems to routinely get the puck out through possession not just throwing it away.

I think he might be great value in strictly a hockey sense with respect to what you'd have to give up, and since $$$ (salary cap wise) are irrelevant to the sens......why not.

my .02 anyway.
I was joking about Jbo sucking because you said "there is no need to crap all over JB"

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01-25-2013, 02:40 PM
  #98
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I was joking about Jbo sucking because you said "there is no need to crap all over JB"
i should have known. my sarcastometer must be broken....

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01-25-2013, 02:59 PM
  #99
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i should have known. my sarcastometer must be broken....
I agree with you though. I would take a chance on JBo. I think hes just misused in a system that doesn't create too much offense from the defense.

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01-25-2013, 03:01 PM
  #100
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I agree with you though. I would take a chance on JBo. I think hes just misused in a system that doesn't create too much offense from the defense.
that offence doesnt even create much offence from its offence.

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