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Hall + Gagner + 2013 1st rounder

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:39 PM
  #101
belair
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Thank you for your intelligent response. And no, that is not what I said. I said Pietrangelo is more valuable to the Blues taking the rest of their team and team needs into account. Value to team =/= value on open market. Nice work twisting what I said btw.
And my response to that was that the Oilers would feel the exact same with Taylor Hall.

Which is why I stated that the return for the aforementioned package would "piss the other team's fanbase off" in my initial response. Yet to you that was apparently going off-topic.

I'm certain you're either a giant Pietrangelo advocate or hold a great disdain for the Oilers. But in any case you seem to have completely ignored the fact that it would take a giant overpayment to get Taylor Hall out of Edmonton - not to mention the other pieces involved.

Regardless of the bodies coming back, we're still down a #1 LW if this deal is made. In your ideology, the Blues moving Pietrangelo makes about as much sense as the Oilers moving Hall without a respectable replacement.

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:42 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
scored more goals and took more shots while playing 10 ****ing less games and being 3 years younger...

What was Benn 3 years ago?

back to back Mem Cup MVP, former 1st overall pick and future captain of Oilers says GTFO..

I guess Bill Guerin was better than Modano since he outscored and outhit him for a couple yrs.
Hall is a great player and it's cool he went first overall, but Benn is the more complete player. Just compare the two after 2 NHL seasons. Benn had 97pts's and 310 hits in his first two NHL seasons. Hall had 95 pt's and 92 hits in his first two NHL seasons.

There's more to two-way play than hitting, but I've grown tired with this argument.

So, to answer your question, three years ago Benn was a better player.

To whoever mentioned how Hall will be the captain in a few years, do you not think Benn will have the C too?

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01-23-2013, 11:50 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belair View Post
And my response to that was that the Oilers would feel the exact same with Taylor Hall.

Which is why I stated that the return for the aforementioned package would "piss the other team's fanbase off" in my initial response. Yet to you that was apparently going off-topic.

I'm certain you're either a giant Pietrangelo advocate or hold a great disdain for the Oilers. But in any case you seem to have completely ignored the fact that it would take a giant overpayment to get Taylor Hall out of Edmonton - not to mention the other pieces involved.

Regardless of the bodies coming back, we're still down a #1 LW if this deal is made. In your ideology, the Blues moving Pietrangelo makes about as much sense as the Oilers moving Hall without a respectable replacement.
Wait...so you agree with what I said about how Pietrangelo has more value to the Blues? You could have actually said that in the first place, instead of, you know, this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by belair View Post
So your idea of Pietrangelo's trade value is a former 1st overall, a 23 year old second line centre AND a potential lottery pick yet you say I have no concept of player value?

Think before you type.

Yeah...your first response was actually not "And my response to that was that the Oilers would feel the exact same with Taylor Hall." You just went ahead and started laughing at how much I said Pietrangelo was worth to the Blues. Now you're apparently backtracking after some other people including an Oiler fan agreed with me and not you. And about the Hall part...I was talking about Pietrangelo after you jumped all over me for saying the Blues would not trade Pietrangelo for that alone. And about me either being a huge fan of Pietrangelo or holding great disdain for the Oilers...one of your fellow Oiler fans also said how he could see that Pietrangelo is worth that to the Blues. You seem to be the only person not getting this.



This will be my last post on this topic since you apparently are just going in circles now. All I said was that to the Blues Pietrangelo has more value than what you offered. I didn't even mention Hall's name, yet from some unexplainable reason you keep bringing him up like I did.

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:50 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catters078 View Post
I get the feeling Jamie Benn doesnt want to be a dallas star (long term anyway)

To Dallas, Hall Gagner 1st
to Edmonton Benn
I wouldn't trade Hall straight up for Benn...

HF will see this season what an elite talent Hall can be.

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:53 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillmike View Post
Hall is a great player and it's cool he went first overall, but Benn is the more complete player. Just compare the two after 2 NHL seasons. Benn had 97pts's and 310 hits in his first two NHL seasons. Hall had 95 pt's and 92 hits in his first two NHL seasons.

There's more to two-way play than hitting, but I've grown tired with this argument.

So, to answer your question, three years ago Benn was a better player.

To whoever mentioned how Hall will be the captain in a few years, do you not think Benn will have the C too?
Well your answer is wrong!

You are ignoring the player age and games played again.. Hall at age 20 has accomplished a hell lot more than Benn at age 20... 3 years ago Benn was not better than Hall now..

nice use of selective stats... the 'hits' are to help generate offense and to get you points. The end goal is to get points. Great that Benn can use his big frame but in the end points and wins are all that matter.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:08 AM
  #106
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None of the 5 are going anywhere. They're the definition of untouchable. The bright points of the Tambellini era. I don't think he's going to trade them simply to upgrade the 2nd line. If one of them does get dealt, then a legitimate game breaking #1 defenseman is coming back. Anything less then no deal.

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01-24-2013, 01:26 AM
  #107
Pekka Rinne
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Hall not as likely to be moved

to satisfy op premise about 2c gain, presumably over value of Hall. as inducement to do a deal....

Hall [or RNH] + J Schultz + 2 of Marincin/Klefborn/Gernat
for
Brad Richards + Girardi + Stepan + Eminger + Biron

analysis
Hall/RNH a better F for a great C in Richards
Girardi better than J. Schultz, especially on defense, but JS potential acknowledged
Stepan = 2C >> than highly rated Ds
Eminger for balance, provides Oilers w. a D for now

Even if RNH (not Hall), w 2 centers coming back, more depth at pivot for EDM
Girardi is huge improvement to D. Not what JS offers on offense, but Oilers have enough firepower.
Biron gives enough G in shortened season to make a difference this year
Oilers give up two prospect Ds, but still have at least 2 good D prospects not far away.

Rangers upgrade one F,
temporary step backwards on D, except that JSchultz helps on PP,
survive loss of Stepan by promoting JT Miller, who is faster, and a better fit with Hagelin, Kreider, Callahan...
would have to juggle in pivot if that is Hall, not RNH, but ya gotta do the upgrade, and this package helps with creating cap space

Would consider Cam Talbot as immediate backup G.
The Oilers have zero need for Richards, if that package is going to the Rangers, McDonagh + Stepan + is coming back

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Old
01-24-2013, 01:29 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nail Yakupov View Post
we have to give some to get some, I'm sick of trying to offer **** value to teams and recieve their star players. unfourtanetly, it doesn't work like that. You gotta give quality to recieve quality
Lol wut. That IS a good package. You're totally high if you think otherwise.

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Old
01-24-2013, 01:30 AM
  #109
Pekka Rinne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillmike View Post
Hall is a great player and it's cool he went first overall, but Benn is the more complete player. Just compare the two after 2 NHL seasons. Benn had 97pts's and 310 hits in his first two NHL seasons. Hall had 95 pt's and 92 hits in his first two NHL seasons.

There's more to two-way play than hitting, but I've grown tired with this argument.

So, to answer your question, three years ago Benn was a better player.

To whoever mentioned how Hall will be the captain in a few years, do you not think Benn will have the C too?
Hall had 95 points in 126 GAMES, Benn had 97 points in 151 GAMES. Now I get that Benn is a more well-rounded player, but if your gonna use stats, at least show games played.

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Old
01-24-2013, 01:38 AM
  #110
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Stepan + Staal

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Old
01-24-2013, 01:00 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Trillmike View Post
Keep thinking that.
I thought it was only in Colorado they Legalized the "whacky Tobacco?" Did Texas as well?

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Old
01-25-2013, 04:58 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsrock View Post
Hall+Gagner+1 to NJ
Larson+josefson+2nd to oilers

I am troubled by the fact that I am having trouble turning this down. The $6 mil thru 2020 to Hall is the only thing really pushing me away, but I could live with it at the same time and trust Lou would know how to maneuver with the cap hits. Josefson for Gagner is okay in my mind and being a RFA after this year we either attempt to resign him to a reasonable contract or let him get an offer sheet elsewhere since it would return at least 1st & 3rd rounders in 2014 (if not 1, 2 & 3) and we obviously already have Zajac and Adam at center. And the 1st in this coming draft allows us to forfeit our "Kovi penalty 1st" and keep EDM's which with the pieces they lose sending to us is in all likelihood a top-10 and turns into another top player with talent coming out this year.

Interesting...

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01-25-2013, 05:04 AM
  #113
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This package I bet you can get you Volchenkov and Larson or probably Karlsson.

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Old
01-25-2013, 06:05 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
This package I bet you can get you Volchenkov and Larson or probably Karlsson.
huh oh....

mentioning his name is like candyman: if you say it, you're just asking for trouble...

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Old
01-25-2013, 06:23 AM
  #115
ehockey
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
This package I bet you can get you Volchenkov and Larson or probably Karlsson.
Forgive me, but I didn't quite follow you there (too early for me right now i guess). What package or player(s) swapping are we talking about here because it surely cannot be the Karlsson north of the border.

I'd bet most of what I own that he couldn't be moved him for anyone, save for maybe 5 players.

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Old
01-25-2013, 06:56 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
Tambo would be burned in the streets of Edmonton. Not in effigy, actually burned like a witch if he ever traded Hall and this years first.
Even for a really good #2C?

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Old
01-25-2013, 07:06 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehockey View Post
I am troubled by the fact that I am having trouble turning this down. The $6 mil thru 2020 to Hall is the only thing really pushing me away, but I could live with it at the same time and trust Lou would know how to maneuver with the cap hits. Josefson for Gagner is okay in my mind and being a RFA after this year we either attempt to resign him to a reasonable contract or let him get an offer sheet elsewhere since it would return at least 1st & 3rd rounders in 2014 (if not 1, 2 & 3) and we obviously already have Zajac and Adam at center. And the 1st in this coming draft allows us to forfeit our "Kovi penalty 1st" and keep EDM's which with the pieces they lose sending to us is in all likelihood a top-10 and turns into another top player with talent coming out this year.

Interesting...
Each Edmonton piece is more valuable than the NJ piece. And you seem surprised that you might accept it.... I wouldn't trade hall alone for that package, all due respect to Larson.

Seriously, Lou would poop a little and then scream hell yes to this deal.

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Old
01-25-2013, 07:34 AM
  #118
ehockey
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Each Edmonton piece is more valuable than the NJ piece. And you seem surprised that you might accept it.... I wouldn't trade hall alone for that package, all due respect to Larson.

Seriously, Lou would poop a little and then scream hell yes to this deal.
I'm not saying that I wouldn't accept this deal, I also do not think it is as cut and dry and you make it seem. We have a history of consistent winning with a balanced & role playing offense, a strong shutdown defense, and obviously Marty (which will change eventually). I don't think you just up and trade away your prospective top 1/2D of the future along with a developing future 2/3C to get Hall/Gagner when that would put the offensive group at nearly $19mil with just your top three players.

Again I'm not saying that anyone would say no, but it's more than just looking at it and saying yes before you get into the details.

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Old
01-25-2013, 08:41 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Hall not as likely to be moved

to satisfy op premise about 2c gain, presumably over value of Hall. as inducement to do a deal....

Hall [or RNH] + J Schultz + 2 of Marincin/Klefborn/Gernat
for
Brad Richards + Girardi + Stepan + Eminger + Biron

analysis
Hall/RNH a better F for a great C in Richards
Girardi better than J. Schultz, especially on defense, but JS potential acknowledged
Stepan = 2C >> than highly rated Ds
Eminger for balance, provides Oilers w. a D for now

Even if RNH (not Hall), w 2 centers coming back, more depth at pivot for EDM
Girardi is huge improvement to D. Not what JS offers on offense, but Oilers have enough firepower.
Biron gives enough G in shortened season to make a difference this year
Oilers give up two prospect Ds, but still have at least 2 good D prospects not far away.

Rangers upgrade one F,
temporary step backwards on D, except that JSchultz helps on PP,
survive loss of Stepan by promoting JT Miller, who is faster, and a better fit with Hagelin, Kreider, Callahan...
would have to juggle in pivot if that is Hall, not RNH, but ya gotta do the upgrade, and this package helps with creating cap space

Would consider Cam Talbot as immediate backup G.
Bern...while I respect your opinions you should stop with your multiple piece deals. Basically you'd want Hall (1st line LW) + J schultz (best D prospect and only true Offensive D we have) plus 2 of our top 3 D prospects for Richards(~6.7 Mil cap hit for a #2 C behind RNH) + Stepan (another #2 C buta good player) + Girardi (responsible D but not a number 1 and not a replacement for our loss of Schultz's offense) + filler in Eminger and Biron.

The Oilers lose this deal hard. We'd have no future D depth and wouldn't be filling any major holes for the size of the package we're giving up. If Edmonton trades one of the big players with NYR it'll be for a number 1 D not 2 number 2 C and pieces we don't need desperately.

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01-25-2013, 03:51 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian28 View Post
Bern...while I respect your opinions you should stop with your multiple piece deals. Basically you'd want Hall (1st line LW) + J schultz (best D prospect and only true Offensive D we have) plus 2 of our top 3 D prospects for Richards(~6.7 Mil cap hit for a #2 C behind RNH) + Stepan (another #2 C buta good player) + Girardi (responsible D but not a number 1 and not a replacement for our loss of Schultz's offense) + filler in Eminger and Biron.

The Oilers lose this deal hard. We'd have no future D depth and wouldn't be filling any major holes for the size of the package we're giving up. If Edmonton trades one of the big players with NYR it'll be for a number 1 D not 2 number 2 C and pieces we don't need desperately.
Ranger + Oiler fans do not see eye to eye.

A) J Schultz is a rare offensive D, not many teams have one. And you have more than enough firepower, even giving up one of Hall/RNH, to get by without a possible Wayne Coffey in the making.... but that's not what he is now.

B) Girardi is a #1 on a lot of teams, and a truly defensive defenseman.
He's not in a class with Weber, Chara, Doughty, but he is a legit all star and helps with a lot of shots

Girardi + Staal are overly discounted, in the hopes we will offer McDonagh, which we won't and even then, the return is not RNH, but something less.

C) Biron is actually valuable to you this year!

D) You would still have 1 of those 3 left over, and I understand from prior posts you have at least another 2 good guys in the pipeline (forgot their names).

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Old
01-25-2013, 04:00 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Pekka Rinne View Post
The Oilers have zero need for Richards, if that package is going to the Rangers, McDonagh + Stepan + is coming back
The fan bases disagree.

IMO most Ranger fans would do
1 of Staal or Girardi + Stepan
for
1 of RNH or Hall + either J Schultz OR two good D prospects.

As to zero basis for Richards, if we got a big contract back, he may well have to be moved even sooner than later. If not in Edmonton, then somewhere, and with Redden on the books this year, I'm not sure Rangers have room for that deal, unless Richards gets moved...

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Old
01-25-2013, 05:19 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
The fan bases disagree.

IMO most Ranger fans would do
1 of Staal or Girardi + Stepan
for
1 of RNH or Hall + either J Schultz OR two good D prospects.

As to zero basis for Richards, if we got a big contract back, he may well have to be moved even sooner than later. If not in Edmonton, then somewhere, and with Redden on the books this year, I'm not sure Rangers have room for that deal, unless Richards gets moved...
Oilers would never do that. If you want either RNH or Hall, McDonagh better be coming back, let alone RNH or Hall+J Schultz.

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01-25-2013, 05:20 PM
  #123
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please just let this ridiculousness die already

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Old
01-25-2013, 06:52 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Ranger + Oiler fans do not see eye to eye.

A) J Schultz is a rare offensive D, not many teams have one. And you have more than enough firepower, even giving up one of Hall/RNH, to get by without a possible Wayne Coffey in the making.... but that's not what he is now.

B) Girardi is a #1 on a lot of teams, and a truly defensive defenseman.
He's not in a class with Weber, Chara, Doughty, but he is a legit all star and helps with a lot of shots

Girardi + Staal are overly discounted, in the hopes we will offer McDonagh, which we won't and even then, the return is not RNH, but something less.

C) Biron is actually valuable to you this year!

D) You would still have 1 of those 3 left over, and I understand from prior posts you have at least another 2 good guys in the pipeline (forgot their names).
A) Yes Edmonton has a lot of firepower and could spare a significant piece such as Schultz or Hall. Same as NYR has significant defence and could spare a piece such as McDonagh...the argument works both ways and Edmonton won't trade a critical piece without filling a gaping hole.

b) Nobody is discounting Girardi or Staal but you're asking for a 1st line LW, potential top pairing PMD, plus 2 of our best D prospects for what amoutns to spare parts for NYR. The fact that Girardi is a number 1 on some teams means nothing when you're asking for a player of Hall's caliber. Whitney is a number 1 on many teams as well. Same with Bouwmeester. Neither of these players would return anything near a Hall in trade and neither would Girardi as he's good but not a true number 1.

c) Biron is valuable this year but we're trying out Dubnyk in the final year of our rebuild. So far he hasn't been that bad. 1 bad game and 2 good ones. Should LA trade Quick since they're winless in 3 and lost to Edmonton the other night?

d) Having 1 good prospect and several that will fill out the bottom pairings in your D for the future isn't good depth. Right now we have 2-3 prospects with top line (number 2) upside and including those only 4 that project to top 4 potential as a fairly solid bet. If we made that trade we'd be putting all our eggs in the basket and shooting for a cup now witha very short term window while extending NYR window several years. The goal for EDM isn't to win New York a cup but to win one here.

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01-25-2013, 06:53 PM
  #125
Pierce Hawthorne
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Might as well throw an offer from the Avs into this.

Oreilly + Elliott/Barrie + 1st

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