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Ryan O'Reilly's KHL contract terminated

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Old
01-24-2013, 08:33 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Dude, supposedly "comparable" players to EJ (according to Avs fans, not me), like Pronger or Chara, are already Norris candidates at this stage of their career (mid 20s). Pronger would have won the MVP the next season, you think EJ is going to be in sniffing distance of the Hart next year, are some avs fans really that delusional???

EJ is an above average D, probably a #3 on a contender, could probably fill in as a #1 on a bottom 25% D-corps of the league. You really think that you can be a contender with EJ as your #1 D, seriously, think about what you are saying. EJ's career high was 39 points, which was 3 years ago, and hasn't since come close. His career +/- high is a grand total of "1", and more often than not in the negative. You seriously think that he can go head to head with the likes of Chara and Weber. Surpassing EJ up in the depth chart is not that difficult of a feat, for an elite D prospect. The D that you traded away for him, Shattenkirk, is actually a signficantly more accomplished player at this point in time, despite being in the league far fewer years; EJ has been in the league since 18, and his stats has hardly improved at all from his rookie year (33 pts, -9). He is a resounding and abject failure, if you are measuring him according to the #1 overall billing that he was drafted at.

Gormley is already probably the best D that's not playing in the NHL right now, and is a complete player. He easily has the potential to be a all around #2 D on a contender eventually. It's very likely that he will become a top 15 D in the NHL in the next 2/3 years, given the right circumstances (where he is given the right role, but not too much pressure).
What? First of all, I've not seen any Avs fans making that comparison, and how does EJ not being the next Pronger have anything to do with EJ and Gormley Way to get of topic. No one ever mentioned EJ and the hart. What is wrong with you. You're bringing up completely unrelated things. I'm actually concerned for your health now. We were discussing EJ and Gormley, and now you bring up Pronger, Chara, the Norris trophy, and the hart, even though no one here has mentioned any of those guys. Judging from your posts, you're the delusional one.



I now move on to your second paragraph...wow. The guy you replied to did NOT say we are a contender with EJ as our #1, he did NOT compare him to Chara or say he can go head to head with him, and yet you are acting like he did.
Quote:
You really think that you can be a contender with EJ as your #1 D, seriously, think about what you are saying
What are you on about. HE DIDN'T SAY THAT. Wow..learn to read. EJ is our #1 defenseman right now, and we are happy to have him as that. How your EJ bashing has anything to do with Gormley is beyond me btw. Unless somehow this makes you feel better. We really don't care where he was drafted at, and it does not change his value at all. You think he is a failure? Great. Trust me, I don't think any Avs fan really cares about your opinion. You've clearly never watched EJ play.



On to the next paragraph. Well at least you're no longer bringing up the hart and norris trophies, as well as guys like Weber and Chara, even though no Avs fan mentioned them let along the guy you replied too. So...you bash EJ for what he has done in the NHL, say guys like Shattenkirk have done more than him...than say Gormley will be better than EJ...even though Gormely has done NOTHING?? I understand potential and all, but first you bash EJ for what he has done in the NHL, then hype Gormley for doing nothing in the NHL? You don't make a lot of sense, do you. Very likely Gormely will become a top 15 defensman? I'm going to keep this thread for future reference. If you think Gormley will be that good, by all means, KEEP HIM. It's not Avs fans trying to pawn off O'Reilly for Gormley here, its the other way around.



As for EJ being a #3 on most contenders...look no further than last years cup winner to see a team he would certainly be a #2 on. Also see teams like Pittsburgh and Boston.

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01-24-2013, 08:41 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
I think they would match then trade him once its allowed (the next summer?) or let him walk. He's not a 5M$ player.
I'd be willing to give him $5M given our need, and hope he becomes a steal towards the end of the deal (in year 6/7)

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01-24-2013, 08:43 PM
  #128
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I'd be willing to give him $5M given our need, and hope he becomes a steal towards the end of the deal (in year 6/7)
I highly doubt O'Reilly will get near 5m if Benn only got 5.25. Benn is easily the better player.

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01-24-2013, 08:48 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
I highly doubt O'Reilly will get near 5m if Benn only got 5.25. Benn is easily the better player.
Personally, I value ROR more because of:

1) His ability to play shut down defence
2) His younger age

Also, Benn signed a 5 year deal, I would want 6-7 years on any deal we gave ROR. Like I said, in year 6 and 7, when he is 27-28, he could be a top flight center signed under market by quite a bit.

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01-24-2013, 09:08 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
I'd be willing to give him $5M given our need, and hope he becomes a steal towards the end of the deal (in year 6/7)
Unless it changed in the CBA and I missed it, the compensation for a 6 or 7 year offer sheet isn't what you think it is.

Under the old CBA offer sheets capped at 5 years for compensation, so a six year offer sheet at $5M would compensate for $6M AAV (30M/5) and a seven year would compensate for $7M (35M/5) - which I believe, would add the second round pick and second first round pick respectively...

all hypothetical but something to keep in mind.

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01-24-2013, 09:09 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
I highly doubt O'Reilly will get near 5m if Benn only got 5.25. Benn is easily the better player.
Have to agree.... Benn hit 20 goals every year in the league (3times) 41, 56 and 63 points in those season

RoR has yet to hit 20 goals, with 26, 26 and 55 being the points

If Benn got 5.25, RoR should get 2 years at 3.5ish... if there is longer term(no 2nd contract") I could see 4-5million for 4-6 years.

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01-24-2013, 09:53 PM
  #132
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Gardiner has an injury, yes. That doesn't mean he's damaged goods. If anything, your golden boy Duchene is damaged goods, and then some.
Looks like it.

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01-24-2013, 09:57 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
That is the most hilarious statement in this thread.

Yeah, so Gormley, who put up good points in junior being a solid, two-way d-man, is struggling to do the same at the AHL level.

2012-13 Portland Pirates AHL 37gp 4g 9a 13pts 22pim -5+/-

Apart from your own personal opinion, exactly WHAT is pointing to this player being better than EJ at this point and time? His draft position??

Clearly, the value of Ryan O'Reilly, a player that has shown the ability to PLAY IN THE NHL since the age of 18 and EXCEL is close to the value of a guy that has never played ONE game in the league.

This is like an Avs fan trying to tell you that Tyson Barrie has close to the same value as Martin Hanzal or Mikkel Boedker.
Which would be silly because Tyson Barrie has way more value than Hanzal.


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01-25-2013, 04:12 AM
  #134
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go get him tallon!

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01-25-2013, 05:14 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Dude, supposedly "comparable" players to EJ (according to Avs fans, not me), like Pronger or Chara, are already Norris candidates at this stage of their career (mid 20s). Pronger would have won the MVP the next season, you think EJ is going to be in sniffing distance of the Hart next year, are some avs fans really that delusional???
Not that I've seen anyone compare EJ to a guy like Chara, but Chara had a whopping 52 points combined in his first 5 NHL seasons. This is now EJ's 5th full season. There's no reason to write off any defenseman that soon.

And just for your notes, he didn't enter the NHL at 18.

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01-25-2013, 07:10 AM
  #136
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Not in Hanzal's current role, which is absolutely crucial to the Coyotes and the reason they've made the playoffs in consecutive years. You can't coach 6'6. Considering the Avs already have 2 top 6 centers, they should absolutely be interested in a Hanzal for ROR swap. The Coyotes wouldn't be, however, because of how crucial he is. He is a stat monster, apart from points:


I know it's hard to explain Hanzal's value in normal HF terms (points, contract, intangibles) but he is very, very valuable and the Avs would be silly to not want him. Having him gives one of your top 2 lines a guaranteed mismatch against lesser competition.
It's really not hard to explain to me, I appreciate Hanzal as much as any non-Yotes fan probably could. I love underrated 2nd/3rd line defensive types. Like Backes pre-breakout.

But Hanzal is simply not at the same level as O'Reilly. O'Reilly can perform Hanzal's defensive functions and maintain a high level of offensive functionality. I have not a doubt in my mind if a 1 for 1 were to occur and O'Reilly signed you would look back on the trade as a steal.

Hanzal is great, he has things you can't teach a player in his size and natural feel for the game defensively. There was a hockeyprospectus link floating around somewhere in here which was an amazing glimpse into O'Reilly's career and detailed things using statistical support that really help explain what I'm trying to say here.

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01-25-2013, 09:36 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
I highly doubt O'Reilly will get near 5m if Benn only got 5.25. Benn is easily the better player.
I'd assume he'll top out around $3.75... If he gets more, I'd be surprised.

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01-25-2013, 10:09 AM
  #138
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to Col : J. Blum , 1st

to Nsh: ROR

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01-25-2013, 10:13 AM
  #139
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to Col : J. Blum , 1st

to Nsh: ROR
That's easily bested by several teams.

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01-25-2013, 10:47 AM
  #140
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what about

Legwand, Watson, Kostistyn, and a 1st

for ROR and Sgarbossa

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01-25-2013, 10:57 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
what about

Legwand, Watson, Kostistyn, and a 1st

for ROR and Sgarbossa
Is Watson a prospect or current player?

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01-25-2013, 11:36 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
what about

Legwand, Watson, Kostistyn, and a 1st

for ROR and Sgarbossa
While I really like Watson and Legwand is a nice replacement for O'Reilly... Avs won't be moving Sgarbossa anytime soon.

Josi + Watson + 1st for O'Reilly + 2nd would be where I personally would start the negotiations with Nashville. Mitchell seems to be ok at our 3rd line role and we could acquire a guy from somewhere else if we had to. But I'd want Josi + Watson from Nashville, other Avs fans probably wouldn't want Watson as much as I.

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01-25-2013, 12:13 PM
  #143
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Soooooo whats the asking price? whats his value?

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01-25-2013, 12:20 PM
  #144
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Soooooo whats the asking price? whats his value?
We want a top 2 (or the potential of) defenseman for him.

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01-25-2013, 12:36 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
what about

Legwand, Watson, Kostistyn, and a 1st

for ROR and Sgarbossa
Adding Sgarbossa makes that a huge no.



I would want Josi+ from Nashville. Not much else that interests me.

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01-25-2013, 08:04 PM
  #146
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What? First of all, I've not seen any Avs fans making that comparison, and how does EJ not being the next Pronger have anything to do with EJ and Gormley Way to get of topic. No one ever mentioned EJ and the hart. What is wrong with you. You're bringing up completely unrelated things. I'm actually concerned for your health now. We were discussing EJ and Gormley, and now you bring up Pronger, Chara, the Norris trophy, and the hart, even though no one here has mentioned any of those guys. Judging from your posts, you're the delusional one.



I now move on to your second paragraph...wow. The guy you replied to did NOT say we are a contender with EJ as our #1, he did NOT compare him to Chara or say he can go head to head with him, and yet you are acting like he did. What are you on about. HE DIDN'T SAY THAT. Wow..learn to read. EJ is our #1 defenseman right now, and we are happy to have him as that. How your EJ bashing has anything to do with Gormley is beyond me btw. Unless somehow this makes you feel better. We really don't care where he was drafted at, and it does not change his value at all. You think he is a failure? Great. Trust me, I don't think any Avs fan really cares about your opinion. You've clearly never watched EJ play.
Who can't read, I think that would clearly be you. This is clearly stated by an avs fan that :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
EJ is only 24, its going to be another 3-4 years before he hits his prime. Defense don't his their prime until Mid-late 20's.

Look at Pronger and Chara, who are 2 very comparable players to EJ. Not that EJ is anything close to either of them, but similar size big hitters and extremely good Defensively with some offense as well. Chara and Pronger were both in the league for a solid 4-5 years before they became what they are/were. EJ still has a tonne of time to develop.

And yes OEL has developed a lot already, but he also probably wont develop too much further, as has been said he's already a good #1 palying 25 mins a night. He really cant get a whole lot better.

I also don't see how Duchene is less likely to become a Top 10 Center then OEL is to become a Top 10 Dman, Duchene has just as much of a chance as OEL, 1 off year that was injury plagued doesn't change the amount of potential Duchene has. I wouldn't trade Duchene for OEL at this point, like wise Yotes fans wouldn't trade OEL for Duchene.
So now who brought up Pronger and Chara? Seriously, I have no idea where you are getting these bizarre ideas from, I didn't say that. What I said was actually:

Quote:
Originally Posted by letowskie
Dude, supposedly "comparable" players to EJ (according to Avs fans, not me), like Pronger or Chara, are already Norris candidates at this stage of their career (mid 20s). Pronger would have won the MVP the next season, you think EJ is going to be in sniffing distance of the Hart next year, are some avs fans really that delusional???
I clearly didn't refer to the poster that I quoted as saying things about EJ's comparison to Pronger and Chara. I clearly said "some avs fans" said these things. Now who has the reading comprehension problem?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44
On to the next paragraph. Well at least you're no longer bringing up the hart and norris trophies, as well as guys like Weber and Chara, even though no Avs fan mentioned them let along the guy you replied too. So...you bash EJ for what he has done in the NHL, say guys like Shattenkirk have done more than him...than say Gormley will be better than EJ...even though Gormely has done NOTHING?? I understand potential and all, but first you bash EJ for what he has done in the NHL, then hype Gormley for doing nothing in the NHL? You don't make a lot of sense, do you. Very likely Gormely will become a top 15 defensman? I'm going to keep this thread for future reference. If you think Gormley will be that good, by all means, KEEP HIM. It's not Avs fans trying to pawn off O'Reilly for Gormley here, its the other way around.
Gormley also has not wasted the 1st third of his career to "improve" from 33 points and -9 during his rookie campaign, to 26 points and -7 in his sixth season (with almost identical PIM to boot). If the avs fans are willing to face the facts, Johnson has already failed to become a true #1 that he was billed to be. He actually has demonstrated literally zero improvement over all these years that he had been given NHL ice time and facing world class opponents. If you weren't the cool-aid chugging type, you would realize that the Avs, in the long run, needs to look for someone with truly #1 potential again, if they hope to become a perennial contender for the cup once more. His career has Chris Phillips part II written all over it, if you are able to view what actually has happened with him objectively.

Sure, if you would like to stay in the bottom half of the league indefinitely, Johnson will do just fine as a #1 D. If that's your goal, then other D such as Smid, Bowemeester, Wisniewski, Kronwall, Carle, etc, will also just do fine as your "#1 D".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsare1
As for EJ being a #3 on most contenders...look no further than last years cup winner to see a team he would certainly be a #2 on. Also see teams like Pittsburgh and Boston.
Sure, there are teams like Pitt that do not have a #1, or even a true #2 competing for the cup, but that is due to their overwhelming advantage in terms of forwards against the opposition. They now actually have much better depth at the blue line in the coming seasons than the Avs now that Morrow, Despres, etc are ready for prime time. Boston has arguably the best D in the league in Chara, may not have a true #2, but had tremendous depth in forward positions as well the year they won. And with Hamilton dominating the OHL and about to become a dominant D in the NHL, they will get their #2 in short order.

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01-25-2013, 08:12 PM
  #147
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Not that I've seen anyone compare EJ to a guy like Chara, but Chara had a whopping 52 points combined in his first 5 NHL seasons. This is now EJ's 5th full season. There's no reason to write off any defenseman that soon.

And just for your notes, he didn't enter the NHL at 18.
I never said that he did; but this IS his sixth season since he entered the NHL. He has been in the league as long as anyone that I can remember has taken to "develop", with just about zero improvement to show for. His career high was actually 39 pts, which was 3 seasons ago.

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01-25-2013, 08:21 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Who can't read, I think that would clearly be you. This is clearly stated by an avs fan that :



So now who brought up Pronger and Chara? Seriously, I have no idea where you are getting these bizarre ideas from, I didn't say that. What I said was actually:

I clearly didn't refer to the poster that I quoted as saying things about EJ's comparison to Pronger and Chara. I clearly said "some avs fans" said these things. Now who has the reading comprehension problem?????
Still you. Did you even read anything after that??
Quote:
Not that EJ is anything close to either of them,
He clearly states EJ is not even close to those guys. Yup, you're the one with the reading comprehension problem. Nice try though. Oh, and how is one Avs fan now "Avs fans" as you stated.


Quote:
Gormley also has not wasted the 1st third of his career to "improve" from 33 points and -9 during his rookie campaign, to 26 points and -7 in his sixth season (with almost identical PIM to boot). If the avs fans are willing to face the facts, Johnson has already failed to become a true #1 that he was billed to be. He actually has demonstrated literally zero improvement over all these years that he had been given NHL ice time and facing world class opponents. If you weren't the cool-aid chugging type, you would realize that the Avs, in the long run, needs to look for someone with truly #1 potential again, if they hope to become a perennial contender for the cup once more. His career has Chris Phillips part II written all over it, if you are able to view what actually has happened with him objectively.
Really? Did I just see you compare EJ to Phillips? good work. Keep making yourself look like an idiot. How is it relevant that EJ is not what he was billed to be? And look at you, running around here stating your opinion as if its a fact. What you think is completely irrelvant to how EJ plays. The fact that your using +- to back up your point makes me laugh. You think we need to look for a #1 D? Great. Who are you offering? Its certainly not Gormley. Go ahead, by all means, keep him. If he was actually as great as you're making out, you wouldn't be trying to convince Avs fans we need him. Go watch EJ play before making assumptions about him.
Quote:
Sure, if you would like to stay in the bottom half of the league indefinitely, Johnson will do just fine as a #1 D. If that's your goal, then other D such as Smid, Bowemeester, Wisniewski, Kronwall, Carle, etc, will also just do fine as your "#1 D".
Thank you for your concern about the Avs welfare. Its really not needed. Bye. If you think Carle and EJ are even comparable you are even more ignorant that I thought. Thank you for concerning yourself about our team. Thank you for proving you have never watched EJ. Now...go sell Gormley to someone else, thanks.

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01-25-2013, 08:37 PM
  #149
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Still you. Did you even read anything after that?? He clearly states EJ is not even close to those guys. Yup, you're the one with the reading comprehension problem. Nice try though. Oh, and how is one Avs fan now "Avs fans" as you stated.
He said EJ IS not close to them, but yet still compared him to those guys; saying that :
Quote:
Chara and Pronger were both in the league for a solid 4-5 years before they became what they are/were. EJ still has a tonne of time to develop.
Implying that EJ might still become one of those guys. Are you actually blind to what you read? Seriously, his reasoning was clearly that EJ is not yet as good as Pronger and Chara, because Pronger/Chara were still similar to what EJ is now at the same stage of their careers.

Quote:
Really? Did I just see you compare EJ to Phillips? good work. Keep making yourself look like an idiot. How is it relevant that EJ is not what he was billed to be? And look at you, running around here stating your opinion as if its a fact. What you think is completely irrelvant to how EJ plays. The fact that your using +- to back up your point makes me laugh. You think we need to look for a #1 D? Great. Who are you offering? Its certainly not Gormley. Go ahead, by all means, keep him. If he was actually as great as you're making out, you wouldn't be trying to convince Avs fans we need him. Go watch EJ play before making assumptions about him.

Thank you for your concern about the Avs welfare. Its really not needed. Bye. If you think Carle and EJ are even comparable you are even more ignorant that I thought. Thank you for concerning yourself about our team. Thank you for proving you have never watched EJ. Now...go sell Gormley to someone else, thanks.
EJ's career is the most similar to Phillips, of all the #1 overall D drafted in the last several decades. There is no way around it.

No it doesn't matter what his original bill was WRT how he plays now. He is a good player, which I have always said that he is, but clearly not a #1 D material on a contender, and doubtful that he would become one, given the development trajectory since his rookie season. His development is basically non-existent; so projecting that out, he would likely be as good as he is now, not much more, period.

You can make all the allowances of how "stats don't matter", or only rely on purely subjective measures of "seeing how he plays", etc. The fact is that stats do matter. While they are not accurate, they are far more objective that "seeing him play", which the fans of many teams seem to trot out as an excuse when the stats of their favorite players do not back up their claims. Saying that stats don't matter, but only how a player "seems" on ice is a garbage argument, and is a tried and true cop-out for ppl who have no objective evidence in backing their claims up.

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01-25-2013, 08:47 PM
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Avs44
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
He said EJ IS not close to them, but yet still compared him to those guys; saying that :

Implying that EJ might still become one of those guys. Are you actually blind to what you read? Seriously, his reasoning was clearly that EJ is not yet as good as Pronger and Chara, because Pronger/Chara were still similar to what EJ is now at the same stage of their careers.



EJ's career is the most similar to Phillips, of all the #1 overall D drafted in the last several decades. There is no way around it.

No it doesn't matter what his original bill was WRT how he plays now. He is a good player, which I have always said that he is, but clearly not a #1 D material on a contender, and doubtful that he would become one, given the development trajectory since his rookie season. His development is basically non-existent; so projecting that out, he would likely be as good as he is now, not much more, period.

You can make all the allowances of how "stats don't matter", or only rely on purely subjective measures of "seeing how he plays", etc. The fact is that stats do matter. While they are not accurate, they are far more objective that "seeing him play", which the fans of many teams seem to trot out as an excuse when the stats of their favorite players do not back up their claims. Saying that stats don't matter, but only how a player "seems" on ice is a garbage argument, and is a tried and true cop-out for ppl who have no objective evidence in backing their claims up.
Wait...so one Avs fan saying EJ is close to those guys when they were at the same point in their careers suddenly makes Avs fans delusional? (That's you what implied we were)



Yes, clearly EJ and Phillips are comparable because they are both defensman(wow!!) and both drafted 1st overall(AMAZING!! They are literally the same player!!) So you're saying he can't become a legit #1. Great. Tell me, how does this have anything to do with Gormley. Or do you think he will be a legit #1 and solve all the Avs issues



Tell me, how many Avs games have you watched? Love to know. Seems to me the people who never watch a player play then judge said player, are the ones who throw the importance of actually watching a player before judging that player out the window. You think EJ has plateaued and cannot become a #1 D? For instance, did you watch the game last night? EJ was a beast. He absolutely played like a #1 defensman. He certainly has the potential to be one. But no, I'm sure, you, after browsing hockeydb, can say with complete confidence he will never become one. Gotta love the internet experts who pull up some stats on NHL.com and suddenly know everything about a player and how good he is, as well as his potential.

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