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Old
01-25-2013, 12:02 PM
  #501
Ference the Finger
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Newsflash for you, it's not my thumb...
It's not your pinkie, either, but it might feel like it...

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01-25-2013, 12:03 PM
  #502
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It's not your pinkie, either, but it might feel like it...
OH!. nu-uh

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01-25-2013, 12:17 PM
  #503
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Newsflash for you, it's not my thumb...
You're...uh.. bragging a/b this?

Don't worry, they make that cream for guys hung like light switches.

But it makes your hands bigger, too.

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01-25-2013, 12:20 PM
  #504
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Just got offered two seats to tonights game.

My brother.

Kind of thing he does when he's a/b to ask me for a lot of money.

Thinking...

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01-25-2013, 12:26 PM
  #505
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Let me clarify those numbers. The 4% vs 1% are the percentages of people who contract the flu. 4% of the population who haven't had a flu shot will contract the flu vs 1% who have had a flu shot. It's from a study that you can read here if you want:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...A1B5776.d03t02

And keep in mind that it's only a 3% difference if it's a matching strain. If the strain doesn't match, it's a 1% difference. Not really a large swing in the odds that make it worth exposing yourself to needless chemicals, IMO.

Some anecdotal evidence for you as well. I was in Boston at MGH during the height of the flu pandemic a few weeks ago. We were there for 4 days, exposed to the virus constantly going up and down in the elevators, interacting with countless health care professionals who were assisting flu victims, and eating in the cafeteria where all the families of the sick and the workers were. Yet my wife, my daughters, and myself haven't had so much as a sniffle since that visit. The odds are just not that high you're going to get it.

The irony is that they spread fear and panic about it, but the numbers just don't back it up. Especially since the groups it hits the hardest (under 2 and over 65) have the least positive results from the flu shot. The group that doesn't contract the disease the most (IE healthy people age 18-54) don't really need it, yet they want you to get it. The only group that should really be getting it are those with underlying health concerns.
Besides the fact that I can only read the abstract of that article, because I don't have a society membership, I have concerns about the bias of the authors. When their abstract contains this quote
Quote:
The review showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies.
in their conclusions section, and it's set off with a big "WARNING" header, I am left with the feeling that they set out to come up with conclusions that counter the manufacturer-funded studies. Just because the manufacturer-funded studies are biased, does not mean that other studies (or meta-analysis in this case) are free from their own bias.

I'd be much more willing to accept the findings of the CDC, which show that based on this year's data, being vaccinated reduces your risk of having to go to the doctor by 60% over those who are unvaccinated.

Not only that, if 4% of unvaccinated people get the flu, and 1% of vaccinated people also get the flu, that's not a difference of 3%, that's adifference of 400%. The big factor really seems to be exposure to the infecting agent. Most (and by most, I mean the VAST majority) of us won't be exposed in a manner that is likely to lead to flu infection. But for those who are, you're 4 times more likely to get the flu if you don't get the flu shot than if you do.

I also don't buy your premise about spreading fear and panic. Epidemiological studies have shown that the best way to reduce the spread of an infectious agent through a population is widespread vaccination. Healthy adults are not asked to be vaccinated just to prevent them from contracting the infection, but to help prevent them from spreading it. Again, you say that the number don't back it up, but I don't know to what numbers you are referring.

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Old
01-25-2013, 12:27 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Ference the Finger View Post
It's not your pinkie, either, but it might feel like it...
Well, in fairness to me, it only feels like a pinky because parts on Lou are a little stretched out...

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01-25-2013, 12:30 PM
  #507
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Snape???
Men...




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01-25-2013, 12:30 PM
  #508
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Well, in fairness to me, it only feels like a pinky because parts on Lou are a little stretched out...
Touche'!

Or is it tushie?

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01-25-2013, 12:32 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Ference the Finger View Post
Besides the fact that I can only read the abstract of that article, because I don't have a society membership, I have concerns about the bias of the authors. When their abstract contains this quote in their conclusions section, and it's set off with a big "WARNING" header, I am left with the feeling that they set out to come up with conclusions that counter the manufacturer-funded studies. Just because the manufacturer-funded studies are biased, does not mean that other studies (or meta-analysis in this case) are free from their own bias.

I'd be much more willing to accept the findings of the CDC, which show that based on this year's data, being vaccinated reduces your risk of having to go to the doctor by 60% over those who are unvaccinated.

Not only that, if 4% of unvaccinated people get the flu, and 1% of vaccinated people also get the flu, that's not a difference of 3%, that's adifference of 400%. The big factor really seems to be exposure to the infecting agent. Most (and by most, I mean the VAST majority) of us won't be exposed in a manner that is likely to lead to flu infection. But for those who are, you're 4 times more likely to get the flu if you don't get the flu shot than if you do.

I also don't buy your premise about spreading fear and panic. Epidemiological studies have shown that the best way to reduce the spread of an infectious agent through a population is widespread vaccination. Healthy adults are not asked to be vaccinated just to prevent them from contracting the infection, but to help prevent them from spreading it. Again, you say that the number don't back it up, but I don't know to what numbers you are referring.
Sure, I get the whole good for the herd mentality, but I don't subscribe...

To me, it comes down to risk. As I rarely get the flu, and when I do, I don't require hospital care, it seems senseless to expose myself to unneeded chemicals. Also, the whole narcolepsy case going on right now shows how a vaccine can trigger a negative effect because you have a chromosomal difference than most. Since you can't see if you have a DNA variant that could potentially be impacted negatively, is it really worth it? To me the answer is no.

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Old
01-25-2013, 12:42 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Sure, I get the whole good for the herd mentality, but I don't subscribe...

To me, it comes down to risk. As I rarely get the flu, and when I do, I don't require hospital care, it seems senseless to expose myself to unneeded chemicals. Also, the whole narcolepsy case going on right now shows how a vaccine can trigger a negative effect because you have a chromosomal difference than most. Since you can't see if you have a DNA variant that could potentially be impacted negatively, is it really worth it? To me the answer is no.
Sure, I get that. And I can completely understand your reasoning. I've come to a different conclusion. But The thing that bothers me is how much disinformation is out there about the flu vaccine. And not to pick on DarrenBanks, but to me even the thought that there's a belief that there are different immunizations for different types of people is frightening. (And angering, frankly.)

You should be able to make decisions for what you believe is best for you and your family, but you should do it with good, valid information.

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01-25-2013, 01:00 PM
  #511
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I'm going to wade into this softly.

First and foremost there arent special vaccines for special groups, specifically when it comes to annual flu. I work for the company that produces most of the supply.

Next, any medication and all medications may have side effects depending on the recipient. From harsh chemo drugs all the way down to a simple aspirin.

It's the risk/reward of taking any of these.
Its a personal decision.

The fact is more often than not the reward outweighs the risk in the general population.

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BOSTON STRONG !!!
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Old
01-25-2013, 01:11 PM
  #512
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Hello all. Quick question - iphone or android? And why?

It's time pie entered the new decade, albeit kicking and screaming.

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Old
01-25-2013, 01:13 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
I'm going to wade into this softly.

First and foremost there arent special vaccines for special groups, specifically when it comes to annual flu. I work for the company that produces most of the supply.

Next, any medication and all medications may have side effects depending on the recipient. From harsh chemo drugs all the way down to a simple aspirin.

It's the risk/reward of taking any of these.
Its a personal decision.

The fact is more often than not the reward outweighs the risk in the general population.
Everything that is wrong with the world can be traced back to big pharma, IMO....




And yes, I'm just trying to get a rise out of you, GW...

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Old
01-25-2013, 01:17 PM
  #514
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Everything that is wrong with the world can be traced back to big pharma, IMO....




And yes, I'm just trying to get a rise out of you, GW...
I didnt realize big pharma was a religion.

Imagine....that John Lennon....smart man,



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Old
01-25-2013, 01:20 PM
  #515
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Everything that is wrong with the world can be traced back to big pharma, IMO....




And yes, I'm just trying to get a rise out of you, GW...
Wifey works for big pharma and based on the stories she tells it's a wonder any drug ever comes to market.

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Old
01-25-2013, 01:20 PM
  #516
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for those that are interested in the behind-the-scenes and pipelining of pharma, there's an absolutely terrific blog maintained by a pharmaceutical chemist that is always worth a read

http://pipeline.corante.com/

he gets a lot into the chemistry of reactions but will often go through the process and gates and trials in a way that is understandable to laymen like myself; it's a wonderful resource

his "things i won't work with" is a seminal work that anyone who deals with chemicals, pressure, or things that can harm should read; "how not to do it" is a derivative work that is also wonderful

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01-25-2013, 01:21 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
I didnt realize big pharma was a religion.

Imagine....that John Lennon....smart man,


You must know the lyrics very well:

Imagine there's no prescriptions. It's easy if you try. No meds for people to rob for, and use to only get high. Imagine all the people, living healthy today...you-oooooh-oooh, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one....

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01-25-2013, 01:22 PM
  #518
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Are people getting the white text I included? Wally works at a pharma company, which is why I said it. Not because I believe it.

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Old
01-25-2013, 01:22 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Sure, I get the whole good for the herd mentality, but I don't subscribe...

To me, it comes down to risk. As I rarely get the flu, and when I do, I don't require hospital care, it seems senseless to expose myself to unneeded chemicals. Also, the whole narcolepsy case going on right now shows how a vaccine can trigger a negative effect because you have a chromosomal difference than most. Since you can't see if you have a DNA variant that could potentially be impacted negatively, is it really worth it? To me the answer is no.
I was like you, rarely got sick, never felt the need. Then my 3 lil bio-hazards came along, and I got nailed w/ the swine flu that year. It was BRUTAL, all the gals are thinking "man-cold", no, this was really bad, kicked my ass. Further complicating things, I crushed a sinus as a teen. Making me prone to horrible sinus infections. Exacerbated the whole thing. Ever since that, I get the shot, and haven't been sick since. But, for some of the reasons you're citing, I don't get the kids shots, either. But I'm beginning to change my mind. I watched the flu go through my house 2 years in a row, and I was the only one who didn't get sick. Makes you feel guilty. If it's genuinely going to keep them from getting sick, why not?

Remember that steroid used for back pain that gave 80+ people meningitis? I get that medication monthly in my back. Lucked out only b/c my MD doesn't buy that medication from that particular lab. Which, btw, is also in Mass. Frightened **** outta me. This is the first month I've been back for injections since, and I was scared ****less. Way, way too close for comfort. There's always a risk, why they have you sign your life away anytime you receive treatment like that.

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01-25-2013, 01:24 PM
  #520
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Are people getting the white text I included? Wally works at a pharma company, which is why I said it. Not because I believe it.
yeah i saw and i tried to help you out in your endeavor.

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01-25-2013, 01:28 PM
  #521
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I was like you, rarely got sick, never felt the need. Then my 3 lil bio-hazards came along, and I got nailed w/ the swine flu that year. It was BRUTAL, all the gals are thinking "man-cold", no, this was really bad, kicked my ass. Further complicating things, I crushed a sinus as a teen. Making me prone to horrible sinus infections. Exacerbated the whole thing. Ever since that, I get the shot, and haven't been sick since. But, for some of the reasons you're citing, I don't get the kids shots, either. But I'm beginning to change my mind. I watched the flu go through my house 2 years in a row, and I was the only one who didn't get sick. Makes you feel guilty. If it's genuinely going to keep them from getting sick, why not?

Remember that steroid used for back pain that gave 80+ people meningitis? I get that medication monthly in my back. Lucked out only b/c my MD doesn't buy that medication from that particular lab. Which, btw, is also in Mass. Frightened **** outta me. This is the first month I've been back for injections since, and I was scared ****less. Way, way too close for comfort. There's always a risk, why they have you sign your life away anytime you receive treatment like that.
Wow. That's some scary ***** right there.

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01-25-2013, 01:30 PM
  #522
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yeah let's regulate that stuff less because then the *invisible hand* can just, you know, legally rectify the issue by suing the company into the ground

because that makes a lot of difference after you're in the ground

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01-25-2013, 01:35 PM
  #523
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I've been in the field my entire career dating back to the late 70s. It has many interesting facets. Most drugs never see the light of day from development to actaul approval. Also need to figure about 10 years to reach launch too and could cost millions to billion depending on the drug.

Sure there's ups and downs. Side effects and many, mnay trials.

The thing that always disturbs me the most though is the facination the FDA has with blind tests utilizing placebos in clinicals for prople known to be terminally ill. Its a death sentence for some part of the population. When its kids involved, it breaks my heart.

I fully understand the need to keep snake oil off the pharmacy shelves....but for crying out loud dont do that to the terminally ill. Give them a shot at least..
Anyway, said more than I should. It's close to my heart for those that have viewed my video will know.

(gets off his soapbox)

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01-25-2013, 01:35 PM
  #524
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Wifey works for big pharma and based on the stories she tells it's a wonder any drug ever comes to market.
I believe it.

I am all for safe, effective medications don't get me wrong. But I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of promising drugs get bogged down in FDA testing/regulations etc. to the point where it is a waste of money for the company to continue developing it.

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01-25-2013, 01:39 PM
  #525
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I was like you, rarely got sick, never felt the need. Then my 3 lil bio-hazards came along, and I got nailed w/ the swine flu that year. It was BRUTAL, all the gals are thinking "man-cold", no, this was really bad, kicked my ass. Further complicating things, I crushed a sinus as a teen. Making me prone to horrible sinus infections. Exacerbated the whole thing. Ever since that, I get the shot, and haven't been sick since. But, for some of the reasons you're citing, I don't get the kids shots, either. But I'm beginning to change my mind. I watched the flu go through my house 2 years in a row, and I was the only one who didn't get sick. Makes you feel guilty. If it's genuinely going to keep them from getting sick, why not?

Remember that steroid used for back pain that gave 80+ people meningitis? I get that medication monthly in my back. Lucked out only b/c my MD doesn't buy that medication from that particular lab. Which, btw, is also in Mass. Frightened **** outta me. This is the first month I've been back for injections since, and I was scared ****less. Way, way too close for comfort. There's always a risk, why they have you sign your life away anytime you receive treatment like that.
State of Mass. dropped the ball as they legally had governance over monitoring that site.
FDA dropped the ball not following up on Warning Letter set on comapny years ago. Follow up should have been Consent Decree with 3rd party governance established.
FDA big black eye on this.

It was no surprise. That is the sin in all this.

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