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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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01-25-2013, 12:00 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I hope people are not changing their minds after 3 games. It's a small sample size in various ways.

After 25 games? Maybe.

Regardless, going for the playoffs and tanking require the same strategy through to the trade deadline anyway: play the vets. The former requires playing the vets to win, the latter to boost the trade value of whoever we want to discard.
If we end up selling I think people will be dissapointed with the returns our vets would get. None of the good ones are UFA and with the cap going down the contenders can't afford a 4 or 5m salary that isn't going to expire.

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01-25-2013, 12:10 PM
  #402
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Markov looks better than I could have hoped so far, but that just makes you wonder: why would you trade him at this point? There is so much experience and skill there from which players like Diaz and Subban can learn for years to come, and a defensive presence that Emelin and Gorges can take note of.
The reasons have been provided for you. You don't agree that the reasons are compelling enough to do it that's fair enough. But it's silly to sit there and pretend like there's no reason to do it. And it's even worse when you come in here and say that people are stupid for suggesting it.
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I hope people are not changing their minds after 3 games. It's a small sample size in various ways.

After 25 games? Maybe.

Regardless, going for the playoffs and tanking require the same strategy through to the trade deadline anyway: play the vets. The former requires playing the vets to win, the latter to boost the trade value of whoever we want to discard.
People who argue against dealing Markov or Plecs always start pointiing to how good they are or how we can't win anything without them right now.

It's missing the point. Of course they're good. That's why they have trade value. You have to give to get. And if we arent' winning right now, then it doesn't really matter anyway. I know that's a tough pill to swallow and a lot of people don't like it but it's reality.

Some people need to realize that there's a difference between 'giving up' and 'moving on.'
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
No that's not it at all. I think this team won't do very well this season... but I'm against trading away our core vets for futures when we are pretty close to being a playoff contender.

Pleks, Markov, Cole, gorges... these guys should not be traded if we want to contend in the next few seasons. Some think we should entertain offers for pleks and gio and whatever at the deadline if we are not in a playoff position... but that would be unwise because playoff teams trying to get vets won't trade players who are NHL ready anytime soon, but rather picks and prospects, which would be a backwards move. We already have a lot of picks and prospects
A playoff contender doesn't really mean that much though. We were playoff contenders back when we let Souray go for nothing. Rather than deal him for a good return we went for 8th. We missed, got a mid round pick and then Souray left for nothing.

It's not about this year's playoffs. Its about building towards a cup. We should be single minded in that pursuit. I know you'll say there's a benefit to our kids getting some playoff experience and that's true. But its not nearly as important as getting the best talent to build with for the future.

If you change your perspecitive from 'we need to make the playoffs' to 'we need to win a cup' you'll see that the way you go about these two things aren't necessarily the same. In fact, they can come into direct conflict from one another. And that's one of the biggest disconnects on this board. We have folks who are only focused on THIS year and making the playoffs no matter what. If you change your perspective to the long term and winning cups, you'll see things differently.
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Originally Posted by blarneylad View Post
I agree with you. Nobody will continue to pull sleepers in the draft anymore. That formula has been successful and the other 29 teams have wised up.

Draft can be a bit of crap shoot anyways.

I however do not agree with your point that Detroit didn't have good management. What is good is when you innovate, not copy. Detroit innovated their drafting and development team long before the rest of the league took notice and followed suit.

and i need a new avatar
Nobody denies that the Wings have had good management. Their ownership though has consistently pointed to the hiring of Jimmy Devellano as the turning point. He was hired in '82 and he was a huge reason the team built the way they did. Very next season they held onto the pick and got Yzerman.

You can't just refer to recent years, say you want to emulate them and ignore how the team got turned around in the first place.

"I guess we look at our team like family. We've been together since 1982. And we've been through some very, very rough times, as you know. We all grew up together, and I thank God for Jimmy Devellano. He told us that we have to build through the draft. That's what he told us.

And he finally convinced Mike and I and here we are. Thank you, Jimmy."
Marian Illitch


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Old
01-25-2013, 12:34 PM
  #403
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Exactement. I think the debate here is really between fans who actually think we are good, and have a chance at a cup, and those, including me, who from experience, know that we are not good, and have very little chance at a cup. All the rest is blather really.

The anger seems to come from fans who are offended at me calling the Habs a bad team. I have been aware of this of course. And I know why there is anger: I am removing hope with my negative statements. No one likes to have their hopes dashed. Me included. But I must be realistic, or perish.
With Price, Galchneyuk, Max and Subban... it really might actually be enough. That's some great talent to work with. Then again, maybe not.

All I'm saying is I'd like to stack the deck. If we do this with what we already have, I have a hard time seeing how we don't become contenders. Some folks say its needless to do this but I don't think so. I'd much rather we pack the system with the best we can get. And if we do become contenders and our system is still packed (which would be really nice) then we can look at adding FAs or even trading some of the prospects.
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If we end up selling I think people will be dissapointed with the returns our vets would get. None of the good ones are UFA and with the cap going down the contenders can't afford a 4 or 5m salary that isn't going to expire.
If we don't get the returns that we've suggested then... don't make the deals. Nobody is suggesting we dump these guys for no reason. The whole purpose of trading them would be the returns. If there's not a decent return then we shouldn't make the deal.

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01-25-2013, 12:35 PM
  #404
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If we end up selling I think people will be dissapointed with the returns our vets would get. None of the good ones are UFA and with the cap going down the contenders can't afford a 4 or 5m salary that isn't going to expire.
obviously.

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01-25-2013, 12:35 PM
  #405
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A playoff contender doesn't really mean that much though. We were playoff contenders back when we let Souray go for nothing. Rather than deal him for a good return we went for 8th. We missed, got a mid round pick and then Souray left for nothing.
And with that pick we drafted a potential #1 D. So even when we are in the "Try to make the playoffs" mode we are still able to pick up really good players.

Also you've claimed that Kopitar a number 10 overall is a rebuilding pick, and yet #12 is a mid round pick. I didn't realize 2 spots is such a big dropoff.

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01-25-2013, 12:44 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If we don't get the returns that we've suggested then... don't make the deals. Nobody is suggesting we dump these guys for no reason. The whole purpose of trading them would be the returns. If there's not a decent return then we shouldn't make the deal.
And when we decide to not trade them because the value isn't there people will still blame management just like everyone blames Gainey for not trading Souray. We have no idea what was offered for Souray people just assume it must be really high. Maybe Gainey didn't get any good deals and so passed and decided to try to sign him instead

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01-25-2013, 01:29 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
And with that pick we drafted a potential #1 D. So even when we are in the "Try to make the playoffs" mode we are still able to pick up really good players.
You can get decent players in the mid rounds. But its hard to find superstars there. That's always been our problem. We ice 8th place clubs and then perpetuate the medicority with mid round picks. That's how we've built our teams over the years. Mid 1st round picks are great... but if that's all you have, you're making things hard for yourself.
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Also you've claimed that Kopitar a number 10 overall is a rebuilding pick, and yet #12 is a mid round pick. I didn't realize 2 spots is such a big dropoff.
The draft is linear. The first overall usually results in a better player than the 2nd, the 3rd better than the 4th and so on. A huge dropoff from 10 to 12? Maybe not. But if we had dealt some vets that season we would've gotten a return on those trades plus we would've sunk in the standings. And Logan Couture was drafted 9th that year.

You can cherry pick stars anywhere in the draft (just like I did with Couture.) It doesn't change the fact that superstars are found higher in the draft. So when you ask me is a 10th overall a rebuild pick, I'd say... sure it is to a lesser extent. You can get some very good players around 10th and you might luck out on a superstar there. But it's uncommon. Better to have a 10th than a 16th though and you still have to miss the playoffs to get the 10th.

Resident stats expert Seventieslord created a statistical study that examined the effectiveness of the draft several years back. I've posted it now and then on the rebuild threads because it's compelling. Basically if you have multiple top five picks, odds are you're going to land at least one if not multiple superstars. In fact, you have a better chance at a superstar with one pick in the top five than if you had five picks outside the top ten. The odds at getting a superstar are exponentially higher.
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And when we decide to not trade them because the value isn't there people will still blame management just like everyone blames Gainey for not trading Souray. We have no idea what was offered for Souray people just assume it must be really high. Maybe Gainey didn't get any good deals and so passed and decided to try to sign him instead
Gainey at least tried to build through the draft. I didn't feel like he tried to rebuild aggressively enough but at least he tried to go via the draft route. Problem is we were always drafting mid rounds which is where good but not great players are usually found so you wind up with good but not great players to build with and good but not great teams. His real problem was asset management and not trading away vets but letting them leave for nothing...

Look at the 4 core players we keep talking about. 2 were got via top five picks, another was gotten via a rebuild trade. 3 out of 4 ain't bad. Like I said, we do finally have some top end talent in the system. Price is as good as it gets, PK (a 2nd rounder) is amazing and Galchenyuk looks like he could be great too. Factor in Max and some of the prospects we have and things don't look so bad.

But how much better do they look if we add another top five this year? Or some prospects and mid round picks to go with whatever we get? We could accelerate the rebuild considerably.

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01-25-2013, 01:39 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
A playoff contender doesn't really mean that much though. We were playoff contenders back when we let Souray go for nothing. Rather than deal him for a good return we went for 8th. We missed, got a mid round pick and then Souray left for nothing.

It's not about this year's playoffs. Its about building towards a cup. We should be single minded in that pursuit. I know you'll say there's a benefit to our kids getting some playoff experience and that's true. But its not nearly as important as getting the best talent to build with for the future.

If you change your perspecitive from 'we need to make the playoffs' to 'we need to win a cup' you'll see that the way you go about these two things aren't necessarily the same. In fact, they can come into direct conflict from one another. And that's one of the biggest disconnects on this board. We have folks who are only focused on THIS year and making the playoffs no matter what. If you change your perspective to the long term and winning cups, you'll see things differently.
I get what you are saying, but it is not an exact science. Tanking has only worked for Pittsburgh really. The blackhawks drafted 1st and 3rd to get kane and toews, but without signing hossa, stealing sharp from philly and drafting the likes of keith, byfuglien, versteeg, bolland etc in the later rounds, the blackhawks wouldn't have won.

Boston didn't tank... detroit didn't tank, edmonton did tank and look how long its taking them to even make the playoffs! It's not an exact science, although the odds are better for sure. I would not sacrifice a few ****** years for a chance of getting better.

No one expected the habs to draft 3rd overall last season, and now that they did (and they will probably get another high end prospect in this draft), there is no need to tank further by trading away proven vets. The cupboard is full (and will be fuller after this draft)... its time for the upswing! The pieces are in place.

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01-25-2013, 01:52 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I hope people are not changing their minds after 3 games. It's a small sample size in various ways.

After 25 games? Maybe.

Regardless, going for the playoffs and tanking require the same strategy through to the trade deadline anyway: play the vets. The former requires playing the vets to win, the latter to boost the trade value of whoever we want to discard.
How is that "tank" idea going? Still want to dump everyone over 27 on the team for picks?

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01-25-2013, 01:58 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You can get decent players in the mid rounds. But its hard to find superstars there. That's always been our problem. We ice 8th place clubs and then perpetuate the medicority with mid round picks. That's how we've built our teams over the years. Mid 1st round picks are great... but if that's all you have, you're making things hard for yourself.

The draft is linear. The first overall usually results in a better player than the 2nd, the 3rd better than the 4th and so on. A huge dropoff from 10 to 12? Maybe not. But if we had dealt some vets that season we would've gotten a return on those trades plus we would've sunk in the standings. And Logan Couture was drafted 9th that year.

You can cherry pick stars anywhere in the draft (just like I did with Couture.) It doesn't change the fact that superstars are found higher in the draft. So when you ask me is a 10th overall a rebuild pick, I'd say... sure it is to a lesser extent. You can get some very good players around 10th and you might luck out on a superstar there. But it's uncommon. Better to have a 10th than a 16th though and you still have to miss the playoffs to get the 10th.

Resident stats expert Seventieslord created a statistical study that examined the effectiveness of the draft several years back. I've posted it now and then on the rebuild threads because it's compelling. Basically if you have multiple top five picks, odds are you're going to land at least one if not multiple superstars. In fact, you have a better chance at a superstar with one pick in the top five than if you had five picks outside the top ten. The odds at getting a superstar are exponentially higher.

Gainey at least tried to build through the draft. I didn't feel like he tried to rebuild aggressively enough but at least he tried to go via the draft route. Problem is we were always drafting mid rounds which is where good but not great players are usually found so you wind up with good but not great players to build with and good but not great teams. His real problem was asset management and not trading away vets but letting them leave for nothing...

Look at the 4 core players we keep talking about. 2 were got via top five picks, another was gotten via a rebuild trade. 3 out of 4 ain't bad. Like I said, we do finally have some top end talent in the system. Price is as good as it gets, PK (a 2nd rounder) is amazing and Galchenyuk looks like he could be great too. Factor in Max and some of the prospects we have and things don't look so bad.

But how much better do they look if we add another top five this year? Or some prospects and mid round picks to go with whatever we get? We could accelerate the rebuild considerably.
No one is disputing that the higher the draft pick the better chance of getting a great player. Though I seem to recall we tried to move up into 7th to draft McDonagh because we didn't think we would last to 12th. So no Logan Couture anyways

I don't think anyone is suggesting we trade our picks for vets like the leafs have been doing. The point is that even though we've spent the past 10-15 years just trying to make 8th we've still managed to build a team with 4-5 elite players (Markov, Subban, Price, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk) if we hadn't traded McDonagh that would be 6. Not too mention some great but not quite elite players like Plekanec and Gorges. How many more do we really need, there will always be one more guy that would improve our chances just a little more.

We've been going for the playoffs every year and have been rebuilding at the same time. I prefer that to dismantling the team and sitting at the bottom for several years collecting "super-stars"

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01-25-2013, 01:59 PM
  #411
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I get what you are saying, but it is not an exact science. Tanking has only worked for Pittsburgh really. The blackhawks drafted 1st and 3rd to get kane and toews, but without signing hossa, stealing sharp from philly and drafting the likes of keith, byfuglien, versteeg, bolland etc in the later rounds, the blackhawks wouldn't have won.

Boston didn't tank... detroit didn't tank, edmonton did tank and look how long its taking them to even make the playoffs! It's not an exact science, although the odds are better for sure. I would not sacrifice a few ****** years for a chance of getting better.

No one expected the habs to draft 3rd overall last season, and now that they did (and they will probably get another high end prospect in this draft), there is no need to tank further by trading away proven vets. The cupboard is full (and will be fuller after this draft)... its time for the upswing! The pieces are in place.
Tons of teams tanked and won. Detroit were the Dead Thngs, the Avs drafted low forever, NJ tanked... Please don't say Chicago didn't tank because it's not true.

And dude, the purpose of rebuilding is to get superstars. If you don't have them, you're not going to win. Even in the very few cases where you could argue there wasn't a superstar on the team there was a player playing like a superstar that year. The Hurricanes who had Staal are probably the closest to a team without a superstar. Tampa wasn't great either. Other than that, most clubs had more than one.

The purpose of rebuilding is not to tank for the sake of it. And finishing at the bottom of the standings doesn't mean squat if you keep trading away picks (Toronto, Islanders)... its the means to an end.

Nobody is saying that you rebuild ONLY with the draft and that's it. We're saying you start with the draft and build from there. Of course you add FAs to flesh out the roster and if you can pick up a Hossa to help put you over you do it. Hell, I'm okay dealing picks and prospects once you become a contender... because at that point it makes sense to do it. Not when you aren't contenders though...

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01-25-2013, 02:25 PM
  #412
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Tons of teams tanked and won. Detroit were the Dead Thngs, the Avs drafted low forever, NJ tanked... Please don't say Chicago didn't tank because it's not true.

And dude, the purpose of rebuilding is to get superstars. If you don't have them, you're not going to win. Even in the very few cases where you could argue there wasn't a superstar on the team there was a player playing like a superstar that year. The Hurricanes who had Staal are probably the closest to a team without a superstar. Tampa wasn't great either. Other than that, most clubs had more than one.

The purpose of rebuilding is not to tank for the sake of it. And finishing at the bottom of the standings doesn't mean squat if you keep trading away picks (Toronto, Islanders)... its the means to an end.

Nobody is saying that you rebuild ONLY with the draft and that's it. We're saying you start with the draft and build from there. Of course you add FAs to flesh out the roster and if you can pick up a Hossa to help put you over you do it. Hell, I'm okay dealing picks and prospects once you become a contender... because at that point it makes sense to do it. Not when you aren't contenders though...
even bottom feeders

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01-25-2013, 02:56 PM
  #413
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Tons of teams tanked and won. Detroit were the Dead Thngs, the Avs drafted low forever, NJ tanked... Please don't say Chicago didn't tank because it's not true.

And dude, the purpose of rebuilding is to get superstars. If you don't have them, you're not going to win. Even in the very few cases where you could argue there wasn't a superstar on the team there was a player playing like a superstar that year. The Hurricanes who had Staal are probably the closest to a team without a superstar. Tampa wasn't great either. Other than that, most clubs had more than one.

The purpose of rebuilding is not to tank for the sake of it. And finishing at the bottom of the standings doesn't mean squat if you keep trading away picks (Toronto, Islanders)... its the means to an end.

Nobody is saying that you rebuild ONLY with the draft and that's it. We're saying you start with the draft and build from there. Of course you add FAs to flesh out the roster and if you can pick up a Hossa to help put you over you do it. Hell, I'm okay dealing picks and prospects once you become a contender... because at that point it makes sense to do it. Not when you aren't contenders though...
"tanking" is intentionally losing. Very few teams have actually done that, the only one I can think of is Pittsburgh with Lemieux...and Rimouski with Crosby, but taht's another league.

Most of the teams you named did not choose to suck, they sucked because they did their best and their best was not good. Pittsburgh had a ****** rink and they couldn't keep players. Chicago had a similar situation with their old owner.

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01-25-2013, 02:59 PM
  #414
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"tanking" is intentionally losing. Very few teams have actually done that, the only one I can think of is Pittsburgh with Lemieux...and Rimouski with Crosby, but taht's another league.

Most of the teams you named did not choose to suck, they sucked because they did their best and their best was not good. Pittsburgh had a ****** rink and they couldn't keep players. Chicago had a similar situation with their old owner.
It doesn't matter if they chose to suck. Rebuilds can be unintentional. What matters is that getting high picks worked.

If you plan a rebuild, it's actually better because you can accelerate the process.

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01-25-2013, 03:40 PM
  #415
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With Price, Galchneyuk, Max and Subban... it really might actually be enough. That's some great talent to work with. Then again, maybe not.

All I'm saying is I'd like to stack the deck. If we do this with what we already have, I have a hard time seeing how we don't become contenders. Some folks say its needless to do this but I don't think so. I'd much rather we pack the system with the best we can get. And if we do become contenders and our system is still packed (which would be really nice) then we can look at adding FAs or even trading some of the prospects.

If we don't get the returns that we've suggested then... don't make the deals. Nobody is suggesting we dump these guys for no reason. The whole purpose of trading them would be the returns. If there's not a decent return then we shouldn't make the deal.
I can agree with this post. We have a great young core with huge talent, and if everyone plays to their potential there really is a possibility this team can make some noise come playoff time.

I just don't agree with trading Markov, even if there is a good return, because thinking back he was always the main reason this team had such success. He could control this team, carry us in all situations from powerplay to penalty kill... he WAS the Montreal Canadiens. Now he has started to show that he hasn't lost his touch, his intelligence is astonishing and at this rate, he could turn this team into a contender if he keeps it up.

I could agree with trading some of the other vets for a good enough return, but I say let's give Markov more time and see what he can do. If he can carry this team to a great record around the trade-deadline, I see no reason for trading him. He can be a top defenseman in this league for years to come, which can be nothing but good news for the younger defense on the team.

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01-25-2013, 04:25 PM
  #416
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How is that "tank" idea going? Still want to dump everyone over 27 on the team for picks?
I don't support dumping everyone over.

And the tank idea is going fine. Some tradeable players are padding their stats against weak teams like Washington and Florida.

I wish Cole would score more goals, and that Kaberle would be useful.


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01-25-2013, 04:34 PM
  #417
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I can agree with this post. We have a great young core with huge talent, and if everyone plays to their potential there really is a possibility this team can make some noise come playoff time.

I just don't agree with trading Markov, even if there is a good return, because thinking back he was always the main reason this team had such success. He could control this team, carry us in all situations from powerplay to penalty kill... he WAS the Montreal Canadiens. Now he has started to show that he hasn't lost his touch, his intelligence is astonishing and at this rate, he could turn this team into a contender if he keeps it up.

I could agree with trading some of the other vets for a good enough return, but I say let's give Markov more time and see what he can do. If he can carry this team to a great record around the trade-deadline, I see no reason for trading him. He can be a top defenseman in this league for years to come, which can be nothing but good news for the younger defense on the team.
Trading all the veterans would be a bad move.

At the end of the day it depends on their relative abilities and trade values. If the best offer for Markov is a 2nd rounder, then keep Markov.

The good thing about Markov is that he just missed three years of play due to injuries. Whereas most fans think that's bad, that's actually good for the Habs. It means he avoided three years of wear and tear on his body, and so it's more conceivable he could be productive through to 2016 or so. He is 34 now, I can see him being useful up to 38, maybe 39.

Bergevin needs to assess his value to the organization, whether or not he thinks we might win a cup before 2016/2017, and then evaluate the best offers available.

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01-25-2013, 07:07 PM
  #418
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I can agree with this post. We have a great young core with huge talent, and if everyone plays to their potential there really is a possibility this team can make some noise come playoff time.

I just don't agree with trading Markov, even if there is a good return, because thinking back he was always the main reason this team had such success. He could control this team, carry us in all situations from powerplay to penalty kill... he WAS the Montreal Canadiens. Now he has started to show that he hasn't lost his touch, his intelligence is astonishing and at this rate, he could turn this team into a contender if he keeps it up.

I could agree with trading some of the other vets for a good enough return, but I say let's give Markov more time and see what he can do. If he can carry this team to a great record around the trade-deadline, I see no reason for trading him. He can be a top defenseman in this league for years to come, which can be nothing but good news for the younger defense on the team.
Nobody would deny that he was the heart of the team for a long time. And I don't expect us to trade him. It goes against the grain to deal away players who are loved and of course the guy has value.

If he plays like his now for the rest of the year he'll be worth even more than a late 1st. Then again if he plays like he is now for the rest of the year and we get back Subban we might make the playoffs....

One other point worth noting here though. Emelin probably doesn't develop last year if Markov is in the lineup, ditto with Diaz. Subban only took on the role he did because there was nobody else. You could make a pretty strong argument that Markov's abscence (while not good for the standings) actually benefited some of the younger prospects looking to crack the lineup and make names for themselves. No way do they get the ice time they did if Markov was around.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-25-2013 at 07:30 PM.
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01-25-2013, 07:57 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

One other point worth noting here though. Emelin probably doesn't develop last year if Markov is in the lineup, ditto with Diaz. Subban only took on the role he did because there was nobody else. You could make a pretty strong argument that Markov's abscence (while not good for the standings) actually benefited some of the younger prospects looking to crack the lineup and make names for themselves. No way do they get the ice time they did if Markov was around.
Agreed.

You need veteran presence on the team to help the young players, but you also can't develop youngsters if each of the 19 starting roster spots are taken up by veterans, something a lot of people fail to realize.

In terms of the long-term road to contention, I'm in favor of clearing out 1 vet on forward and 1 on defense by the summer of 2013. The latter can be either of Kaberle/Bouillon or both. The former... well, there are lots of choices.

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01-25-2013, 08:45 PM
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For all our talk about which veteran should be traded, the decision will ultimately be made by the other GMs and who they're interested in.

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01-25-2013, 08:56 PM
  #421
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For all our talk about which veteran should be traded, the decision will ultimately be made by the other GMs and who they're interested in.
Our GM has to be willing to pull the trigger though. Maybe MB will be different from the Gms we've had over recent years and be more willing to listen.

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01-25-2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
One other point worth noting here though. Emelin probably doesn't develop last year if Markov is in the lineup, ditto with Diaz. Subban only took on the role he did because there was nobody else. You could make a pretty strong argument that Markov's abscence (while not good for the standings) actually benefited some of the younger prospects looking to crack the lineup and make names for themselves. No way do they get the ice time they did if Markov was around.
More ice-time is not always better, as DAChampion pointed out earlier, humans learn best when they are challenged so long as it's not overwhelming. I think it's pretty easy to make the case that last year when Emelin and Diaz were used on the 2nd pairing they struggled and were somewhat overwhelmed. On the 3rd pairing they looked very solid. Did they learn more failing on the second pairing or succeeding on the 3rd pair? That's a hard question to answer.

Subban is a special player and is the exception not the rule

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01-25-2013, 09:26 PM
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I get what you are saying, but it is not an exact science. Tanking has only worked for Pittsburgh really. The blackhawks drafted 1st and 3rd to get kane and toews, but without signing hossa, stealing sharp from philly and drafting the likes of keith, byfuglien, versteeg, bolland etc in the later rounds, the blackhawks wouldn't have won.

Boston didn't tank... detroit didn't tank, edmonton did tank and look how long its taking them to even make the playoffs! It's not an exact science, although the odds are better for sure. I would not sacrifice a few ****** years for a chance of getting better.

No one expected the habs to draft 3rd overall last season, and now that they did (and they will probably get another high end prospect in this draft), there is no need to tank further by trading away proven vets. The cupboard is full (and will be fuller after this draft)... its time for the upswing! The pieces are in place.
What are you talking about? The cupboard is not full, at all. Name me one sure fire no 1 line star wing prospect we have. Zero.

For people to actually think this club plus our current prospects will be a contender next year or the year after is absurd. We need one more Gally level forward prospect, without question.

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01-25-2013, 09:28 PM
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More ice-time is not always better, as DAChampion pointed out earlier, humans learn best when they are challenged so long as it's not overwhelming. I think it's pretty easy to make the case that last year when Emelin and Diaz were used on the 2nd pairing they struggled and were somewhat overwhelmed. On the 3rd pairing they looked very solid. Did they learn more failing on the second pairing or succeeding on the 3rd pair? That's a hard question to answer.

Subban is a special player and is the exception not the rule
Some of these guys might not have even been on the roster.

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01-25-2013, 09:33 PM
  #425
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We are ninth in the league.

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