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01-25-2013, 01:37 AM
  #101
kuick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Lots of the Blues picks were in the 14 to 20 range -- hardly blue chip territory.
Then you have a guy like Patrick Berglund. Drafted in 2006 25th overall.
313 games to his credit.
David Perron -- 26th overall in 2007 -- 295 games to his name.
vs
Brendan Smith -- 27th overall in 2006 -- 17 games to his name.

So it's not just about draft position.
Defensemen do take longer to develop than forwards, but I do agree with you.

For the sake of argument, we can all agree Detroit's first round drafting has been poor. If Detroit landed a 'blue chip' Perron in 2006, would his time table really have been much different than Nyquist's? Maybe by a year but that's the difference between the 1st and 4th round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan
Meanwhile, the Red Wings have spent the past 21 years winning and making the playoffs. They've had every reason to keep prospect development at a steady and slow pace so as to reload when time need be. They've been able to afford that luxury. What you see now are the effects of having that luxury overlapping to a time when we can't afford that luxury.
I think Jman nails the point right here. Detroit's picks may have sucked, but the reason Perron is making the jump almost instantly is because St. Louis is busy at the bottom of the pool in 2008 and picking up Pietrangelo.

Rebuilding on the fly isn't an easy feat. In fact, I don't believe it's been successfully done in the past decade. Every current contender has had a bottom 10 finish in the last 10 years. That's the point of a full rebuild, allowing a youth movement for a team. Detroit obviously hasn't had that opportunity, and in order to stay competitive they've moved a huge portion of that youth in favor of veterans.

Is it the best route? Probably not. Pens/Hawks proved the tanking model works and without heading that route soon, Detroit ends up in the same boat Calgary and Toronto have been in for a while. It was fun while it lasted but when the organization finally does realize a full rebuild is necessary, it'll unfortunately be a long one.

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01-25-2013, 01:48 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Have you interviewed? Are you close chums so that you share each other's thoughts with one another? No? I didn't think so. No, the prospects have most definitely NOT spoken. Keep your ignorant comments to yourself.
Yeah, you're probably right- Gus and Tatar have likely lobbied Kenny for another 2 seasons minimum in the AHL (this is me speculating, NOT the result of an interview I have conducted with actual NHL players or prospects). It is my belief that both guys are aiming to become 3 ppg players at that level and possibly get some time in at goalie to further round out their games before ascending to Detroit.

I'm sure that those 2 have never looked at their own great play in the AHL, watched the plugs like Cleary and Bert blocking their road to the Wings, and noticed guys younger than them with similar or lesser skill sets succeeding on other NHL teams without questioning what they have to do to make the big club. Heck, they may have even noticed the downward trend the Wings have been on the last few seasons and further questioned having their NHL careers put on hold for guys whose best years are well in the rearview mirror.

Thanks for the advice, but I decided not to keep my more-than-likely-spot-on comments to myself.

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01-25-2013, 05:55 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Lots of the Blues picks were in the 14 to 20 range -- hardly blue chip territory.
Then you have a guy like Patrick Berglund. Drafted in 2006 25th overall.
313 games to his credit.
David Perron -- 26th overall in 2007 -- 295 games to his name.
vs
Brendan Smith -- 27th overall in 2006 -- 17 games to his name.

So it's not just about draft position.
I'm just nitpicking here but Smith was drafted in 2007. He went the college route too. And let's be honest, before last year (realistically), Smith wouldn't have cracked the lineup.

A better comparison would be McDonagh who not only went the college route, but was Smith's teamate. McDonagh has played a season and a half in the NHL. IMO, Smith should've played in the NHL last year.

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01-25-2013, 08:12 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Good on the Blues for giving a young guy like Vladimir Tarasenko a chance to make their team! He's off to a great start. If he was drafted by the Red Wings he'd still be in the KHL.

If Nyquist and Tatar were anywhere near as good as Tarasenko, they would be with the big club right now.

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01-25-2013, 09:20 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by TCNorthstars View Post
If Nyquist and Tatar were anywhere near as good as Tarasenko, they would be with the big club right now.
Tarasenko's also 21 yo 200lbs - not exactly 19, 175lbs. Nyquist at 21 was what, 170 lbs? Ferraro is 21 right now and 170lbs. Tatar just turned 22 and he is ready this year, but wasn't last year. Nyquist and Tatar are stuck one year too long while Ferraro, Sheahan deserve their chance next season but probably will be stuck one year too long in the minors aswell.

There's no reason to deny Wings are babying their prospects too much right now, but you cannot compare them to a top5 prospect in the world well-grown like Tarasenko. Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Ferraro, Pulkkinen, Sheahan etc. have simply not been of that calibre or been bulked enough. If you want impact at 20, you have to draft for it. If they ever draft a forward in the 1st round who progress in an elite way from the get go, I'd like to believe they would be fine giving the kid a chance. But then you have to find a talent who's at least 185lbs at draft day.

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01-25-2013, 11:07 AM
  #106
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Wow that Yakupov celebration was a bit overboard. I'd be embarrassed if one of our guys did that. Guy would fit in perfectly on a soccer pitch. On an NHL ice surface? Not so much.

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01-25-2013, 12:28 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Wow that Yakupov celebration was a bit overboard. I'd be embarrassed if one of our guys did that. Guy would fit in perfectly on a soccer pitch. On an NHL ice surface? Not so much.
It was a big goal, I like the enthusiasm and think the "sliding on the ice" celebration is kinda cool, but I'm not a fan of him weaving thru his teammates who were coming to celebrate with him so he could pull off the slide (that part was definitely soccer...er, "futball," sorry Euro posters ). Kinda left them all hanging there.

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01-25-2013, 12:34 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Wow that Yakupov celebration was a bit overboard. I'd be embarrassed if one of our guys did that. Guy would fit in perfectly on a soccer pitch. On an NHL ice surface? Not so much.
Ya it was a bit much. He did the exact same celebration as Theo Fleury when he scored the OT winner in game 6 to take the series to a 7th game. Only difference is that Yak's was the tying goal in the 3rd game of the season.
I'm all for a huge, passionate celebration but I think it should be for a huge goal.

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01-25-2013, 12:39 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by optimuspaul View Post
Ya it was a bit much. He did the exact same celebration as Theo Fleury when he scored the OT winner in game 6 to take the series to a 7th game. Only difference is that Yak's was the tying goal in the 3rd game of the season.
I'm all for a huge, passionate celebration but I think it should be for a huge goal.
It is probably a huge goal for him. His third NHL game and scoring with 4 seconds left to send the game to OT against the defending Cup champions probably seems huge to a 19 year old.

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01-25-2013, 12:54 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by TCNorthstars View Post
It is probably a huge goal for him. His third NHL game and scoring with 4 seconds left to send the game to OT against the defending Cup champions probably seems huge to a 19 year old.
A first goal is huge for every NHL'er. That's why your teammate fishes the puck out of the net for you so you have it as a keepsake. I just think it was overboard. I understand during international tournaments or even playoff games where there's something significant on the line. I do like the passion, he just brushes off his teammates to go do his soccer thing. If it's a one-time thing it's no big deal.

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01-25-2013, 12:56 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
A first goal is huge for every NHL'er. That's why your teammate fishes the puck out of the net for you so you have it as a keepsake. I just think it was overboard. I understand during international tournaments or even playoff games where there's something significant on the line. I do like the passion, he just brushes off his teammates to go do his soccer thing. If it's a one-time thing it's no big deal.
It actually wasn't his first goal, he scored his first against SJ

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01-25-2013, 01:05 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by optimuspaul View Post
It actually wasn't his first goal, he scored his first against SJ
I had no idea. Scoring late to tie a game is nice but wow what an over-reaction. He's not going to be popular among opposing teams. Hope he can hold his own if this is how he's going to react whenever he scores a goal.

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Old
01-25-2013, 01:18 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by kuick View Post
Defensemen do take longer to develop than forwards, but I do agree with you.

For the sake of argument, we can all agree Detroit's first round drafting has been poor. If Detroit landed a 'blue chip' Perron in 2006, would his time table really have been much different than Nyquist's? Maybe by a year but that's the difference between the 1st and 4th round.
Defensemen do take longer -- in some cases. But even then, I don't know that they arrive in the NHL later -- they just take longer to hit their stride, even in the NHL.

I don't know that our first round drafting has been bad.

Sheahan/McCollum/Smith/Kindl/Kronwall/Fischer since 1998 -- McCollum looks like the worst of the bunch.

Kindl is interesting, because I think we've likely ruined this guy with our boneheaded development strategy.

To expect defensemen to be ready for the NHL -- which is supposedly what our league is all about -- is absolutely stupid.

It's like not letting anyone go to law school until they pass the bar exam.

The NHL, contrary to what some people say,is still a league where players learn.

If you ask someone to repeat 12th grade for three years, does that help them when they get to college? My guess is no.

And that's our development policy.

So back to Kindl, he was drafted in 05 and has played 106 games. Matt Niskanen was taken 28th overall that year.. went to college for two years... started in the AHL for 13 games and was called up to the NHL. Is he a great defensemen? No. But he's established himself with 373 games to his name. How about Mark Eduard Vlasic, called up to the NHL as a 19 year old, has played 474 games and 68 playoff games.

What do we do? We sign Ruslan Salei and trade for Kyle ****ing Quincey -- A guy who we lost because of our stupid policies -- and Carolo Colaiacovo -- and all these moves prevent us from ever giving kindl a chance to secure a job in the NHL.

Bottom line is, there are better teams in the NHL than Detroit giving young players REAL opportunities to develop on the job.



Quote:
Rebuilding on the fly isn't an easy feat. In fact, I don't believe it's been successfully done in the past decade.
Red Wings did it. Some would argue that New Jersey did it. Philly has been a pretty solid team (one under 500 team since 95).

The point isn't that it's hard or easy.
The point is that we aren't even trying.

Nobody knows if Nyquist and Jarkrok and Tatar and Smith and Sheahan and Ferraro are going to keep the Red Wings at the top of the NHL the way Datsyuk and Zetterberg did when replacing Yzerman and Zetterberg.

But in the meantime, let's see if they can replace Hudler and Holmstrom and not sign Modano, and Bertuzzi and Samuelsson.


Quote:
Every current contender has had a bottom 10 finish in the last 10 years. That's the point of a full rebuild, allowing a youth movement for a team. Detroit obviously hasn't had that opportunity, and in order to stay competitive they've moved a huge portion of that youth in favor of veterans.

Is it the best route? Probably not. Pens/Hawks proved the tanking model works and without heading that route soon, Detroit ends up in the same boat Calgary and Toronto have been in for a while. It was fun while it lasted but when the organization finally does realize a full rebuild is necessary, it'll unfortunately be a long one.[/QUOTe]

That's kind of BS.
Because the flyers had two 3 top 10 picks --- one from a trade. One who never amounted to anything on Philly, and one whose still a young and fairly unproven player.
The Flyers have hit a homers with picks all over the draft (though not lately).

I don't like the idea of resigning one's self to a full rebuild.

The other dubious point here is that Pittsburgh and the Hawks tanked as a "model."
They tanked because they owners didn't want/couldn't afford to spend money.

They let Jagr --28 -- for peanuts. They moved Kovalev -- 27 -- for nothing. They let Robert Lang -- 29 -- walk in free agency. All salary cutting moves.

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Old
01-25-2013, 01:26 PM
  #114
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T
Tatar's first goal celebration

Personally, I love Yakupov's reaction. Don't want to see it all the time. But whatever.

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01-25-2013, 01:29 PM
  #115
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Hossa scored the game winner last night in OT on a great pass from Kane.

5+1 for Hossa in 4 games.

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01-25-2013, 01:29 PM
  #116
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That was Yakupov's second goal.

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01-25-2013, 01:30 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Hossa scored the game winner last night in OT on a great pass from Kane.

5+1 for Hossa in 4 games.
Franzen got paid and no longer has any work ethic. Sucks that Ken Holland got fleeced so badly.

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01-25-2013, 01:41 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Hossa scored the game winner last night in OT on a great pass from Kane.

5+1 for Hossa in 4 games.


I can't believe they didn't find a way to sign him.

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01-25-2013, 02:08 PM
  #119
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I can't believe they didn't find a way to sign him.
I like the way Hossa plays. I'm glad to see he's back after taking that hard hit from Torres. That looked like the kind of hit you don't come back from.

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01-25-2013, 02:09 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Red Wings did it. Some would argue that New Jersey did it. Philly has been a pretty solid team (one under 500 team since 95).

The point isn't that it's hard or easy.
The point is that we aren't even trying.
Forgot about NJ but that's a strange case.

The sooner Holland realizes this, the faster we can become a real contender again. He just wants one real last shot while Datsyuk is still 'in his prime', although the holes elsewhere put us too far back to actually compete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
I don't like the idea of resigning one's self to a full rebuild.
I'm not encouraging them to tank. A full youth movement where we have a bunch of promising young players take over this team and grow together is probably the direction we need to head. The problem is, we don't have the prospects we need. Pens, Hawks, LA, STL, EDM, Col have taken these steps, maybe a few others. Rangers too but they've had some free agent help since.

The longer we drag out the idea that we are a real contender and keep signing vets, the longer this youth movement will take. We're headed for Calgary status and it's gonna be a long process.

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01-25-2013, 02:41 PM
  #121
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I think if we used our youth, it will help us long term .. But here's the thing:

I think the youth helps us in the short term, too.
I'll take a young, hungry player with speed and enthusiasm at the expense of experience.

It's about balance.

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01-25-2013, 02:50 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
I think if we used our youth, it will help us long term .. But here's the thing:

I think the youth helps us in the short term, too.
I'll take a young, hungry player with speed and enthusiasm at the expense of experience.

It's about balance.
It's ****ed up that KH doesn't realize this though.

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01-25-2013, 03:05 PM
  #123
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It's ****ed up that KH doesn't realize this though.
Ken Holland still thinks this team is a contender. There is no other logical explanation.

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01-25-2013, 04:48 PM
  #124
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Have a friend that is from Chicago, everytime Hossa scores I text him you're welcome for that gift. Guy doesn't leave anything on the ice.

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01-25-2013, 05:35 PM
  #125
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Sucks man, franzen got paid and pulled a disappearing act hossa did the opposite.

Wrong kid died!

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