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Does Manning have the biggest drop off in the playoffs than any other all-time great?

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01-21-2013, 01:42 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
They've played the last 11 seasons in a division with Miami, Buffalo, and the Jets. That's historically lucky by itself, everything else be damned. Those three teams have combined for exactly 11 winning seasons in the last 11 years, and 6 playoff appearances.
I doubt much would've changed, but you definitely can wonder if or how things might've been different if the Colts stayed in the AFC East instead of the lowly Dolphins, and they went to the AFC South.

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01-21-2013, 02:57 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
His QB rating the last two AFC championships is around 60, but nobody probably cares.
No one ever should about the QB rating.

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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Just thinking of some of the bizarre breaks...
- "The Tuck Rule", followed by Adam Vinatieri hitting a 45-yarder in a snowstorm
- Brady getting hurt, and Drew Bledsoe (one of the worst playoff QBs in history) somehow not screwing things up
- Playing against a Mike Martz-coached team in a Super Bowl
- John Kasay forgetting how to kick off into the field of play
- Marlon McCree trying to return an INT instead of just going down
- Lee Evans greasing up his hands before trying to pull in the winning TD
Some bad ones too like Reeche Caldwell, Bernard Pollard, David Tyree

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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
They've played the last 11 seasons in a division with Miami, Buffalo, and the Jets. That's historically lucky by itself, everything else be damned. Those three teams have combined for exactly 11 winning seasons in the last 11 years, and 6 playoff appearances.
Have you had a look at the NFC West when Montana played?

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01-21-2013, 11:06 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
No one ever should about the QB rating.
Ok, he's played like garbage the last two AFC championship games. Better?

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01-21-2013, 11:19 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Most would, but it's not the country mile comparison it once was. Their stats are very similar and ever since the team's defense fell Brady's been as much of a playoff disappointment as Manning. Hell, since Manning won in 07, he's probably been the better playoff QB.
I don't know, it's hard to say. I think both Manning and Brady had a few stinkers in the playoffs since 2007 as well. Last night's may have been one of the worst but it wasn't really any sort of meltdown either.

Manning did play the Ravens better than Brady did this year, but then Brady did play great vs. the vaunted Texans. Sometimes it's just a matter of how the day goes.

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01-21-2013, 11:57 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post

Some bad ones too like Reeche Caldwell, Bernard Pollard, David Tyree

Doesn't work that way. The Patriots always get the calls and always have all the luck. Other teams never get a call and never have a lucky play go their way.

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01-21-2013, 04:05 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
Some bad ones too like Reeche Caldwell, Bernard Pollard, David Tyree
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Doesn't work that way. The Patriots always get the calls and always have all the luck. Other teams never get a call and never have a lucky play go their way.
During their run earlier in the decade, it is impossible to say that New England did not receive what seemed to be a simply improbable number of bizarre breaks. The fact that in several of those games, they were actually outplayed and somehow still came out on top underscored this.

And in some of the breaks that went against them (like the Tyree helmet catch), that was what was needed for a team that had outplayed New England to actually secure a victory.

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01-21-2013, 04:11 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Don't forget Cundiff...
I was just going to throw that one in there. Or McNabb with terrible clock management during the Pats last Superbowl right at the end of the game. Look, if you win three Super Bowls in 4 years in the NFL and continue to play at a very elite level then your hat is off to them. But man, they do have some breaks that always seemed to go their way

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01-21-2013, 04:20 PM
  #108
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Look, anyway some good discussion here guys keep it up. This is what football is all about and why we love it. I guess one thing I will reiterate especially after the game yesterday is that Brady does seem to have more poor performances in the postseason than Montana. It isn't that Montana was God or anything, because for some reason he had a couple really bad postseason games against the Giants, but I think if you were going to pick one QB to play in a big game it still goes to Joe Cool. Am I right?

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01-21-2013, 05:05 PM
  #109
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It's a discussion that normally leads nowhere so I won't continue after this post.

But let me say this. The Patriots record over the past decade speaks for itself. They have won multiple Super Bowl titles, division titles and have made many deep runs into the playoffs. They have had a perfect regular and broken tons of records. People hate BB so I think a lot of the hate towards the team comes from that. Brady has had one of the greatest careers ever by a QB. Whether he is better than Montana/Manning/etc is highly subjective IMO. Everyone seems to have a different opinion and it can be argued in any direction. They are all amazing players.

Brady and Belichick have absolutely nothing left to prove to anyone and whoever believes that a team/players/coaches can have this much success over the past decade based purely on luck or "spygate" is IMO completely out to lunch. I think the overused "haters gonna hate" actually fits in this case.

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01-21-2013, 05:24 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I don't know, it's hard to say. I think both Manning and Brady had a few stinkers in the playoffs since 2007 as well. Last night's may have been one of the worst but it wasn't really any sort of meltdown either.

Manning did play the Ravens better than Brady did this year, but then Brady did play great vs. the vaunted Texans. Sometimes it's just a matter of how the day goes.
Since his win, I really couldn't look at any one playoff game of Manning's and say it was overall a bad one. He's had some crushing blunders(SB pick 6, pick last week), but in every game he's been pretty efficient and has done some pretty good things. QB rating isn't everything, but his lowest QBR since his win is 87.9. Regardless of what you think of the stat, that's pretty telling.

As for the last part, it's funny, because Manning had a lot of those as well earlier in his career. Play great against the Chiefs and Broncos, has a bad game against the Patriots. Hell, Peyton's three non-Patriot playoff games in 2003 and 2004 were all amazing, easily comparable to any of Brady's best, but he lost to the Patriots, so he was never given credit for them. Fast forward to today, and there's clearly a double standard when it comes to Papa Tom.

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01-21-2013, 09:15 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Ok, he's played like garbage the last two AFC championship games. Better?
He wasn't bad last year. Clearly he ran for a Touchdown which doesn't exist much like any other scoring drive that didn't include a passing TD.

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01-21-2013, 11:00 PM
  #112
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He wasn't bad last year. Clearly he ran for a Touchdown which doesn't exist much like any other scoring drive that didn't include a passing TD.
Wow you keep grasping at straws. No, a running TD wouldn't count towards his QB rating. But he was dreadful as a passer, and sorry, a QB sneak TD doesn't make up for that. If Brady last year wasn't bad, then Peyton Manning hasn't had many bad playoff games either.

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01-21-2013, 11:22 PM
  #113
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Really? I thought both of those counted for six points?

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01-21-2013, 11:32 PM
  #114
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Really? I thought both of those counted for six points?


So if a running back gets 40 yards on 20 carries, but squeaks in a one yarder, he had a good game? Maybe in fantasy football, but not out there where it matters. It's pretty sad when literally the only impressive thing a QB does is a 1 yard sneak for a TD. As far as passing the ball goes, you know, that thing the quarterback is supposed to do, he was brutal, and your refusal to admit as much is downright hilarious.

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01-21-2013, 11:51 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post


So if a running back gets 40 yards on 20 carries, but squeaks in a one yarder, he had a good game?
Depends. Say he runs for 10 first downs and that TD. You really disatisfied with that performence?
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Maybe in fantasy football, but not out there where it matters. It's pretty sad when literally the only impressive thing a QB does is a 1 yard sneak for a TD. As far as passing the ball goes, you know, that thing the quarterback is supposed to do, he was brutal, and your refusal to admit as much is downright hilarious.
Really I thought they were suppossed to score points.

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01-22-2013, 05:20 PM
  #116
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Depends. Say he runs for 10 first downs and that TD. You really disatisfied with that performence?
Is that a serious question? Who cares if he gets 10 first downs, if he only has 2 yards a carry, him getting first downs has more to do with his offense giving him easy first down opportunities. And that's before addressing how basically impossible that scenario is.

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Really I thought they were supposed to score points.
Again, hilarious. I would love to hear an actual explanation, other than "it's still 6 points!" how a 1-yard QB sneak for a TD is the difference maker between good and bad game. Almost anyone on the team could have taken that snap and scored that TD, it required next to no special skills of Brady's own, yet all he needs is that one play and it's good game for him. Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself.

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01-22-2013, 05:48 PM
  #117
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So on a 3rd & 1 are you pissed if the RB only runs for 2?

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01-22-2013, 06:00 PM
  #118
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So on a 3rd & 1 are you pissed if the RB only runs for 2?
On that certain play, no. But you don't have a good game because of one good play. A hockey player can have the worst game of his life yet score an easy goal, and it's still a bad game. It's not rocket science, just logic.

Great pick for a hill to die on, though. That Brady had a good game because of that one easy TD he scored, as long as you ignore the other 95% of the game.

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01-22-2013, 11:54 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
On that certain play, no. But you don't have a good game because of one good play.
So it would be possible to have a good game if you were succssfuly running the ball for scores and conversions, while having a stat line that at first glance isn't impressive?

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Great pick for a hill to die on, though. That Brady had a good game because of that one easy TD he scored, as long as you ignore the other 95% of the game.
Had he got that by tossing the ball three feet his stat line would have looked better to the cursory glance at the stats that's become the gospel.

A 5 yard screen on third and long is more valueable than a scoring play. Career wise one particular victim was Troy Aikman.

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01-23-2013, 03:53 PM
  #120
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So it would be possible to have a good game if you were succssfuly running the ball for scores and conversions, while having a stat line that at first glance isn't impressive?
Not really. If you get lots of first downs as a running back, it's one thing, but if you're getting them because there's a lot of 2nd and 1s or 3rd and 1s or 3rd and 2s and so forth, and those are set up by the passing offense, then it's more about his opportunities than anything. No matter which way you slice it, 40 yards on 20 carries isn't very good. I'll take a back who's effective throughout the game establishing the run and doesn't score over one who can't do anything except get a couple yards and gets fortunate that he has so many short yardage conversion opportunities.

Quote:
Had he got that by tossing the ball three feet his stat line would have looked better to the cursory glance at the stats that's become the gospel.

A 5 yard screen on third and long is more valueable than a scoring play. Career wise one particular victim was Troy Aikman.
Better, obviously, but still poor. Even adding his running totals, without adding attempts, and the TD, his QB rating is still quite low. His rating was 57.5 from that game, adding his running yards and running TD, it bumps it up to a sterling 67. Or, his best in an AFC championship game since the one in Indy.

And a 5-yard screen on third and long is not only brutal in every sense(terrible example you picked there), but it's also a hell of a lot easier from your own 20 than from their 5. That's completely ignoring the points factor.

You act like other than not getting throwing TDs, Brady was good that game. Absolutely false. Brady didn't do a great job of marching the ball and turned it over twice, once in the endzone. Even the most biased Patriot fans wouldn't argue that was a good game for him, but for some reason, you are.

I also find it funny that in your first statement, you argue how stats like yardage aren't important, it's all situational. Then in the next, you argue that scoring situations greatly inflate other stats.


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01-25-2013, 10:34 AM
  #121
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Manning hasn't actually played on many good teams though, that's what people seem to forget. Plus he played pretty much all of his career in a dome, which is a huge disadvantage. Those Colts teams were basically 1 player teams, with no defence. I've never seen receivers drop so many balls as those Colts teams. We all saw how well the Colts did when they lost Manning, and its not a stretch to think Manning was turning 5 or 6 win teams into 13 and 14 win teams.
actually thats a huge stretch.....the idea that Manning took bad teams and lead them to 13-14 win seasons is not accurate at all IMO

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01-25-2013, 02:53 PM
  #122
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actually thats a huge stretch.....the idea that Manning took bad teams and lead them to 13-14 win seasons is not accurate at all IMO
That's exactly what people said in 2011 when he went down, that there was no way the Colts would be a bottom feeder just because one player isn't out there. Curtis Painter sucked, but it turned out to be quite true.

A lot of people questioned firing Polian after one bad season despite putting together a team that set the record for wins in a decade, but it was very justified. No Manning exposed a lot of holes on that team, and Grigson's done a pretty good job of fixing a few of them. I mean, this was a team that built it's defense and special teams around their QB, and somehow it worked so nobody really realized it.

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