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01-25-2013, 03:56 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You realize that even if we get the worst team's pick, there's still a chance we pick 5th (considering they stick to the same draft rules).
And after drafting whoever, there's still no guarantee they become better, or even just as good, as PK.
Actually, a team can only move down one spot in the draft.

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01-25-2013, 03:56 PM
  #327
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Yes, but there has been no news...this is good, I think...
Sounds like the meeting has been really long then, wasn't last week's meeting fairly short because neither side moved from their positions?

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01-25-2013, 04:02 PM
  #328
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Would you guys accept Couturier and a 1st for Subbie-doo ??????
Depends on if the Flyers keep playing the way they have this year so far or if they start playing the way they did last year again.. dependning on which way they go that 1st can look very different

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01-25-2013, 04:06 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Vinny Bombatz View Post
I've concluded that 17 defensemen are undeniably better than Subban, while 28 are debatably as good. Personally I think he falls in top 25 in NHL…

Here is a list of defensemen that are debatably better than Subban in the present (no potential being considered) solely current talent.

Debatably better than Subban
Nashville – Blum
Not a fan of your second list. The first list is pretty good, might put OEL or Enstrom up or blend them a bit more, because I'd be good to debate a few of those guys in the 17 as well, but it's all "close enough". There are some weird names on the 2nd list? Larsson? Blum? Blum can't even crack the Preds atm? Larsson is also a healthy scratch... he's young and will get better, but you can't compare to what Subban has done yet.

I'd probably pick more like 10 guys who are definitely better, then 30 debateable. Then if it was me doing the debating, I'd end up concluding Subban is "top 25" too, so no worries overall. He's not top-10 and he's not worse than about 25th. The rest is subjective.

Interestingly, there are 24 defensemen today with a $5M or more cap hit. There are 50 at $4M or more. So yeah, anything under $4M would be a ridiculous bargain for the Habs. Something at about $5M is probably "fair market value". All present tense. I'd pay a little premium above "fair market value" to buy UFA years from Subban and have faith in his ascension towards that top-10 elite.

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01-25-2013, 04:08 PM
  #330
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Depends on if the Flyers keep playing the way they have this year so far or if they start playing the way they did last year again.. dependning on which way they go that 1st can look very different
You can't trade on conditionals. Only using what's there.

Now, ask yourself what will happen with the Flyers this year.


Also, let's ask ourselves this:

Subban for Couturier and a 1st. This means we have a NHL-ready big centre who proved more than Eller at this point. He could even potentially take over Plekanek's duties in case of injuries.

This means Galchenyuk could easily be sent back down in the Juniors, we can afford to trade Eller, DD or Plekanek to a team who could send us a solid D.


I love Subban. He's the 1st player whose name I ever put on a jersey. But picturing Galchenyuk/Couturier as our top 2 centres in the mid-long future... well, you gotta admit, that's sexy.

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01-25-2013, 04:10 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Not a fan of your second list. The first list is pretty good, might put OEL or Enstrom up or blend them a bit more, because I'd be good to debate a few of those guys in the 17 as well, but it's all "close enough". There are some weird names on the 2nd list? Larsson? Blum? Blum can't even crack the Preds atm? Larsson is also a healthy scratch... he's young and will get better, but you can't compare to what Subban has done yet.

I'd probably pick more like 10 guys who are definitely better, then 30 debateable. Then if it was me doing the debating, I'd end up concluding Subban is "top 25" too, so no worries overall. He's not top-10 and he's not worse than about 25th. The rest is subjective.

Interestingly, there are 24 defensemen today with a $5M or more cap hit. There are 50 at $4M or more. So yeah, anything under $4M would be a ridiculous bargain for the Habs. Something at about $5M is probably "fair market value". All present tense. I'd pay a little premium above "fair market value" to buy UFA years from Subban and have faith in his ascension towards that top-10 elite.
I agree with everything you said...In the '17' there were a few that I thought would be debateable but I did not wanna seem like a homer. Some of the debateable were potential based as well

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01-25-2013, 04:10 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Franked View Post
Actually, a team can only move down one spot in the draft.
True, forgot about that.

Still, no guarantee we would end up with the worst team's pick. They would have to finish last first. Banking on that isn't much of a strategy.

And again, this is assuming the rules remain identical.

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Old
01-25-2013, 04:12 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Vinny Bombatz View Post
Here is a list of defensemen that are guaranteed better than Subban in the present (no potential being considered) solely current talent.

I've concluded that 17 defensemen are undeniably better than Subban, while 28 are debatably as good. Personally I think he falls in top 25 in NHL…

He also would be staring or min top 2 on most of the teams in the league. Looking at this list will open a TON of eyes. IMO Anything under 4mil per is an insult to Subban and anything over 5.5per is complete overpayment.

Here is the list, by team.

100% guaranteed better than Subban

Ducks – 0
Boston – Chara
Buffalo – 0
Calgary – 0
Carolina – 0
Chicago – Keith, Seabrook
Colorado – 0
Columbus – J. Johnson
Dallas – 0
Detroit – Kronwall
Edmonton - 0
Florida – Cambell
Los Angeles – Doughty
Minnesota - Suter
Montreal – Markov
Nashville – Weber
New Jersey – 0
New York Islanders – 0
New York Rangers – Staal
Ottawa – Karlsson
Philly – 0
Phoenix – 0
Pittsburgh – Letang
San Jose – Boyle
St-Louis – Pietrangelo
Tampa – 0
Toronto – 0
Vancouver - Edler
Washington – 0
Winnipeg - Byfuglien


Here is a list of defensemen that are debatably better than Subban in the present (no potential being considered) solely current talent.

Debatably better than Subban

Ducks – Fowler
Buffalo – Myers
Chicago – Hjalmarsson
Colorado – Johnson
Dallas – Goligoski
Florida – Kulikov, Gudbranson
Nashville – Blum
New Jersey – Volchenkov, Larrson
New York Rangers – McDonagh, Del Zotto
Phoenix – Yandle, Larrson
San Jose – Burns, Vlasic, Stuart
St-Louis - Shattenkirk
Tampa – Hedman, Carle
Toronto – Phaneuf, Gunnarson
Vancouver – Bieska
Washington – Green, Alzner, Carlson
Winnipeg – Enstrom, Bogosian


After looking at this list, wow in San Jose scary good this year.
Jack Johnson, Campbell, Byfuglien and Marc Staal "100% guaranteed" better than Subban?

Volchenkov, Blum, Goligoski, Kulikov, Del Zotto, Gunnarson, Green, Carle, Shattenkirk debatable? WTF

And people say Habs fans overrate their own players. Wow.

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Old
01-25-2013, 04:14 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Sounds like the meeting has been really long then, wasn't last week's meeting fairly short because neither side moved from their positions?
Kinda reminds me of the lockout...

I really think no news as of now, is good news...Meehan and PK must be talking about whatever the offer is......so.............let's hope!!

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01-25-2013, 04:15 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
True, forgot about that.

Still, no guarantee we would end up with the worst team's pick. They would have to finish last first. Banking on that isn't much of a strategy.

And again, this is assuming the rules remain identical.
What happens now is that any of the 14 non-playoff teams can "win the lottery" and move straight to #1. Any teams they jump over in the order drop by 1 spot.

I wouldn't gamble on the Flyers getting a really high pick. There are a few too many other teams right now that look pretty weak on paper, and others looking weak on the ice.

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01-25-2013, 04:16 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by BobbyFischer View Post
Would you guys accept Couturier and a 1st for Subbie-doo ??????
Nope.. I'd rather get a blue chip dman back in any trade for Subban instead of a forward. IMO Eller can fill a similar role as to what Couturier would here.

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01-25-2013, 04:17 PM
  #337
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Debatables...

Ducks – Fowler - no
Buffalo – Myers
Chicago – Hjalmarsson - no
Colorado – Johnson
Dallas – Goligoski - no
Florida – Kulikov, Gudbranson
Nashville – Blum - no
New Jersey – Volchenkov, Larrson
New York Rangers – McDonagh, Del Zotto - no
Phoenix – Yandle, Larrson
San Jose – Burns, Vlasic, Stuart - no
St-Louis - Shattenkirk
Tampa – Hedman, Carle
Toronto – Phaneuf - no , Gunnarson - no
Vancouver – Bieska
Washington – Green - eff no, Alzner, Carlson - no
Winnipeg – Enstrom, Bogosian

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01-25-2013, 04:18 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
What happens now is that any of the 14 non-playoff teams can "win the lottery" and move straight to #1. Any teams they jump over in the order drop by 1 spot.

I wouldn't gamble on the Flyers getting a really high pick. There are a few too many other teams right now that look pretty weak on paper, and others looking weak on the ice.
Was this made official?? I heard about it but wasn't sure if it's actually official.

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01-25-2013, 04:18 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
What happens now is that any of the 14 non-playoff teams can "win the lottery" and move straight to #1. Any teams they jump over in the order drop by 1 spot.

I wouldn't gamble on the Flyers getting a really high pick. There are a few too many other teams right now that look pretty weak on paper, and others looking weak on the ice.
Still. Think of it:

Paciorety-Galchenyuk-???
???-Couturier-???

With the potential of Collberg, Kristo and maybe others like this in our top 6.

This could, potentially, settle our forwards for years.

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01-25-2013, 04:19 PM
  #340
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The big problem most see with trading Subban, is that we'd all want P.K. Subban in return.

WTF, just sign the kid already.

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01-25-2013, 04:20 PM
  #341
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The big problem most see with trading Subban, is that we'd all want P.K. Subban in return.

WTF, just sign the kid already.
lol good one.

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01-25-2013, 04:38 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
Debatables...

Ducks – Fowler - no
Buffalo – Myers
Chicago – Hjalmarsson - no
Colorado – Johnson
Dallas – Goligoski - no
Florida – Kulikov, Gudbranson
Nashville – Blum - no
New Jersey – Volchenkov, Larrson
New York Rangers – McDonagh, Del Zotto - no
Phoenix – Yandle, Larrson
San Jose – Burns, Vlasic, Stuart - no
St-Louis - Shattenkirk
Tampa – Hedman, Carle
Toronto – Phaneuf - no , Gunnarson - no
Vancouver – Bieska
Washington – Green - eff no, Alzner, Carlson - no
Winnipeg – Enstrom, Bogosian
Bieksa better than subban? So you're saying you'd trade Subban straight up for one of the most overated players in the league? Bieksa is so average and had little upside. That list is as laughable as saying bieksa is better than subban

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01-25-2013, 04:39 PM
  #343
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problem with dealing pk is we'd need at least a top 4 d man back.preferably a top 2 d man.all our other prospects are a ways off from where pk is now.we need a young d man to grow with price ,max pac etc.3 years from now price, pk, and max will be hitting they re prime and should be dominant players in the nhl.what is mb waiting for????

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01-25-2013, 04:39 PM
  #344
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Was this made official?? I heard about it but wasn't sure if it's actually official.
See Page 19 here:

http://nbcprohockeytalk.files.wordpr...an-12-2013.pdf

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01-25-2013, 04:45 PM
  #345
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problem with dealing pk is we'd need at least a top 4 d man back.preferably a top 2 d man.all our other prospects are a ways off from where pk is now.we need a young d man to grow with price ,max pac etc.3 years from now price, pk, and max will be hitting they re prime and should be dominant players in the nhl.what is mb waiting for????
Were we to acquire Couturier, we could afford to deal any of our centre (except maybe Turtleneck and Galchy) + scrap metal for a reliable D.

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01-25-2013, 04:51 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
Josh Rimer is tweeting that 3 teams have contacted the Habs over Subban

including the Flyers. He is presuming that Couturier would be the piece coming back.

Me no likey
Can he speak French?

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01-25-2013, 04:51 PM
  #347
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Were we to acquire Couturier, we could afford to deal any of our centre (except maybe Turtleneck and Galchy) + scrap metal for a reliable D.
And we'll just try to get another Subban. And frankly other than maybe Gally, not one of our C's or forwards for that matter would get us another Subban by themselves so we would probably need to make a package deal... So we then trade Subban for Courturier, then trade some others to get another Subban... Or we could just keep Subban. Frankly, I'll take the latter.

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01-25-2013, 04:53 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
You can't trade on conditionals. Only using what's there.

Now, ask yourself what will happen with the Flyers this year.


Also, let's ask ourselves this:

Subban for Couturier and a 1st. This means we have a NHL-ready big centre who proved more than Eller at this point. He could even potentially take over Plekanek's duties in case of injuries.

This means Galchenyuk could easily be sent back down in the Juniors, we can afford to trade Eller, DD or Plekanek to a team who could send us a solid D.


I love Subban. He's the 1st player whose name I ever put on a jersey. But picturing Galchenyuk/Couturier as our top 2 centres in the mid-long future... well, you gotta admit, that's sexy.
I never said to trade on "conditionals" but i highly doubt that MB is going to trade Subban right now if he is going to trade him at all. He will mostly likely wait to see how the season plays out a bit before doing anything rash, and you would get way more for him later in the season when teams are more desperate from injuries and unexpected situations . Really I simply was stating that Couterier plus the Flyers 1st (being something in the mid 20's as I dont really believe that they are going to be a bad team all year) isnt really an attractive deal for Subban ... at least not to me as I dont realy see the hype for Couturier.

...and more so I was just making a jab at the Flyers start to this year lol

But while what you proposed next (trading one of our current centers away for a top d man) could very well work out in the future.. I tend to believe that thats alot of uncertainty to trade Subban away on. we would have Couturier who might work out to be better or worse than he his right now.. still too early to tell exactly where his potential will settle and thus a big gamble. we would then propbaly have to trade away Plecks to get a good d man in return .. and thats would mean we would have to gamble on another trade to even make the first deal worth it.. we would also be gambling on a low first round pick to work out as well. really, we already know what we have in Subban and Plecks.. and its pretty damn awesome if you ask me.. so its like the old saying goes the devil you know is better than the devil you dont.

and lastly the only really sexy thing about Gally and Couturier as our 1st and 2nd centers is having Gally as our 1st ... Imho.

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01-25-2013, 04:55 PM
  #349
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Can he speak French?
Allegedly, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
And we'll just try to get another Subban. And frankly other than maybe Gally, not one of our C's or forwards for that matter would get us another Subban by themselves so we would probably need to make a package deal... So we then trade Subban for Courturier, then trade some others to get another Subban... Or we could just keep Subban. Frankly, I'll take the latter.
No, we don't need to get "another Subban". We just need to acquire a solid shutdown defenseman that can bolster our blueline.

I agree that losing Subban would suck. Big time. I'm a huge fan... BUT..

But having the chance of 2 big solid Centres as forward and a potential juicy 1st pick in this year's draft.. That would be a bold, yet not bad move.

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01-25-2013, 04:58 PM
  #350
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I never said to trade on "conditionals" but i highly doubt that MB is going to trade Subban right now if he is going to trade him at all. He will mostly likely wait to see how the season plays out a bit before doing anything rash, and you would get way more for him later in the season when teams are more desperate from injuries and unexpected situations . Really I simply was stating that Couterier plus the Flyers 1st (being something in the mid 20's as I dont really believe that they are going to be a bad team all year) isnt really an attractive deal for Subban ... at least not to me as I dont realy see the hype for Couturier.

...and more so I was just making a jab at the Flyers start to this year lol

But while what you proposed next (trading one of our current centers away for a top d man) could very well work out in the future.. I tend to believe that thats alot of uncertainty to trade Subban away on. we would have Couturier who might work out to be better or worse than he his right now.. still too early to tell exactly where his potential will settle and thus a big gamble. we would then propbaly have to trade away Plecks to get a good d man in return .. and thats would mean we would have to gamble on another trade to even make the first deal worth it.. we would also be gambling on a low first round pick to work out as well. really, we already know what we have in Subban and Plecks.. and its pretty damn awesome if you ask me.. so its like the old saying goes the devil you know is better than the devil you dont.

and lastly the only really sexy thing about Gally and Couturier as our 1st and 2nd centers is having Gally as our 1st ... Imho.
That is entirely a matter of personal assessment of Couturier's talent. Which, to be honest, I only have second-hand. You think Couturier would be an underwhelming 2nd centre?

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