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#4: Pittsburgh Penguins VS Winnipeg Jets @ MTS Centre|Jan.25.2013|8:00PM EST

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01-25-2013, 03:51 PM
  #201
Kesid
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Oh and while were at it, another brilliant decision of management was to give Tangradi an average of 8:27 TOI/G so far. I mean what forward DOESN'T develop with tons of ice time like that? I know if I was developing a young player the first thing I would do would be to put him with players he doesn't have chemistry with, and then yank him off of that line the very instant he messes up. You don't want him not being held accountable for his mistakes now would you? Oh don't mind the fact that just about every other player up and down the lineup has made plenty of mistakes in every game. We aren't trying to develop those players into top-6ers.
I agree.

Also one great example of similar "developing" is Nino from Isles, who played last year an average of 10:06 TOI/G and scored 1 goal in 55 games.

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01-25-2013, 03:54 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Wolf357 View Post
Jets fan comming in peace...
Good luck tonight guys looking forward to a hard grinding game tonight..
Dont get too ofended guys when the Boo birds come out tonight everytime Crosby touches the puck.. Its a Winnipeg Thing, everytime a star player is out there we try to rattle him...sometime it works...sometimes they score a hat trick..
Anyways...Crosby is incredibly popular out here, and we love the guy...just not when he's playing against us...
Malkin is not gonna get some boo birds? I guess he's not that good as they say ...

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01-25-2013, 03:58 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
First off I'm not sure why you are grouping Tangradi and Despres together since they are entirely different players, age, position, and pedigree. Secondly, the last paragraph is laughable. You have basically written off a prospect that has looked very promising in the few NHL games he has gotten because of what? I would love to hear what evidence (stats driven or not) that you have to support this claim. Your labeling of Despres as "an offensive dman" shows you don't know a damn thing about him or the player he is projected to become. Carry on stats man.
Depres has "looked promising" due to his very favorable zone starts and very weak opposition. It is a way to prop up a player you don't have much confidence in. I did not write him off, but I think he is not NHL ready on a contending team. I don't know anyone who would consider him a defensive D man or whatever you think he is. 2 way D man is about the closest you could come in the labeling of him. Funny how he was never used on the PK and only on the PP last year, wasn't it? I know nothing though.

Please see pg52
http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf

I don't have any stats for this year until behindthenet provides them...usually 10 games in. I wouldn't want to base a decision only on 3 games of data anyways. His junior pt production would certainly put him as a offensive D man.

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01-25-2013, 04:00 PM
  #204
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I always thought the fans were saying "BRRRRRR!" Heh, just some humor to brighten your day.

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01-25-2013, 04:05 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Tangridi played the first 3 games with Evgeni Malkin and James Neal and didn't do jack. Think about that, he played with the best player in the game and one of the best scorers in the game and couldn't elevate his play. Most players of his caliber will never get that much of a chance.
Tangradi played 11:24, 9:32 and 4:27 with 2 shots and +1.

And I believe we've seen Pascal Dupuis with Sidney Crosby, who actually didn't score too much at first seasons and I believe most of fans were dissapointed with him playing 1st line.

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01-25-2013, 04:13 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Kesid View Post
Tangradi played 11:24, 9:32 and 4:27 with 2 shots and +1.

And I believe we've seen Pascal Dupuis with Sidney Crosby, who actually didn't score too much at first seasons and I believe most of fans were dissapointed with him playing 1st line.
People are still disappointed with Dupuis playing on the 1st line and rightly so. At least Dupuis brings other aspects to his game, which so far Tangradi hasn't shown.

Just cause DB and Shero have rode out one questionable decision (permanently attaching Dupuis to Sid's hip) to questionable results doesn't mean they should do it again. If Tangradi shows something playing on the 4th line, he'll likely get another chance sometime later. Tangradi could have forced DB's hand if he played well with Geno and Neal, but he didn't. He's still got a chance to make an impression on the 4th line and he better make the most of it.

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01-25-2013, 04:14 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Depres has "looked promising" due to his very favorable zone starts and very weak opposition. It is a way to prop up a player you don't have much confidence in. I did not write him off, but I think he is not NHL ready on a contending team. I don't know anyone who would consider him a defensive D man or whatever you think he is. 2 way D man is about the closest you could come in the labeling of him. Funny how he was never used on the PK and only on the PP last year, wasn't it? I know nothing though.

Please see pg52
http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf

I don't have any stats for this year until behindthenet provides them...usually 10 games in. I wouldn't want to base a decision only on 3 games of data anyways. His junior pt production would certainly put him as a offensive D man.
He is absolutely a 2 way dman and his path to the NHL is exactly what you expect from a prospect like him. You start out with time in the AHL then 3rd pairing NHL minutes. I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Also, it's not funny that he was used on the PP and not the PK. We had one of the best PK's and plenty of D to fill that role. Conversely, outside of Letang and possibly Nisky, we don't have any dmen with PP potential so he was given some time on the 2nd pairing. It's also VERY common for young dmen to need work on their defensive game. This is true of nearly all types of dmen, not just offensive ones. There is an adjustment period to the pros, the system, etc. You need to be far more patient with him.

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01-25-2013, 04:20 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Depres has "looked promising" due to his very favorable zone starts and very weak opposition. It is a way to prop up a player you don't have much confidence in. I did not write him off, but I think he is not NHL ready on a contending team. I don't know anyone who would consider him a defensive D man or whatever you think he is. 2 way D man is about the closest you could come in the labeling of him. Funny how he was never used on the PK and only on the PP last year, wasn't it? I know nothing though.

Please see pg52
http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf

I don't have any stats for this year until behindthenet provides them...usually 10 games in. I wouldn't want to base a decision only on 3 games of data anyways. His junior pt production would certainly put him as a offensive D man.
He has a weird game. Not overly offensive and not overly defensive. I've always thought he plays like Jovo, without the big hits, for good and bad reasons.

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01-25-2013, 04:20 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by deakka View Post
Pesonen had 82 points 70 games in the AHL. And while called up had 0 points in 7 games
Oh God you had to bring that up. That was Tangradi before there was a Tangradi.

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01-25-2013, 04:23 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
He is absolutely a 2 way dman and his path to the NHL is exactly what you expect from a prospect like him. You start out with time in the AHL then 3rd pairing NHL minutes. I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Also, it's not funny that he was used on the PP and not the PK. We had one of the best PK's and plenty of D to fill that role. Conversely, outside of Letang and possibly Nisky, we don't have any dmen with PP potential so he was given some time on the 2nd pairing. It's also VERY common for young dmen to need work on their defensive game. This is true of nearly all types of dmen, not just offensive ones. There is an adjustment period to the pros, the system, etc. You need to be far more patient with him.
Agreed.
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
He has a weird game. Not overly offensive and not overly defensive. I've always thought he plays like Jovo, without the big hits, for good and bad reasons.
He does have a weird game. TSN compared him to Bouwmeester when he was drafted.

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01-25-2013, 04:28 PM
  #211
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Disagree with whomever thinks that Despres needs to go back down. At this point he needs to stay here and adjust to the NHL game.

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01-25-2013, 04:34 PM
  #212
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When I see kids playing a blah game I always wonder how some players just pick up that power/ meaner game at a late age.

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01-25-2013, 04:36 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
When I see kids playing a blah game I always wonder how some players just pick up that power/ meaner game at a late age.
Knowledge of how the game is played at the elite level and lack of nerves.

And they have gotten time to fill out body-wise.

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01-25-2013, 04:41 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits View Post
Disagree with whomever thinks that Despres needs to go back down. At this point he needs to stay here and adjust to the NHL game.
I'm not sure where I fall on this. More mins in the A or less time in the NHL. One things for sure is that I do not want to see him get top 4 NHL mins.

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01-25-2013, 04:42 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
People are still disappointed with Dupuis playing on the 1st line and rightly so. At least Dupuis brings other aspects to his game, which so far Tangradi hasn't shown.

Just cause DB and Shero have rode out one questionable decision (permanently attaching Dupuis to Sid's hip) to questionable results doesn't mean they should do it again. If Tangradi shows something playing on the 4th line, he'll likely get another chance sometime later. Tangradi could have forced DB's hand if he played well with Geno and Neal, but he didn't. He's still got a chance to make an impression on the 4th line and he better make the most of it.
Well, he had only 2 games with limited ice time and he did some good and bad moves, but who didn't? It's the start of the season! And yes, I said 2 games, because 6 shifts is not enough to prove anything. Also he played less minutes than 3rd and 4th liners (except Glass in NY and Jeffrey in PHI).

Let's be honest, he can bring something too, but you have to support him and give him a real chance in second line. Playing 2-3 shifts with G and Neal, then playing with different guys, then back to G and Neal is not very helpful too.

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01-25-2013, 04:45 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by nhindian View Post
Interesting. So we picked up Iginla and Kulemin while only subtracting Tangradi and Adams. And I'm assuming a bountiful collection of picks and prospects.
Well, what's Shero been accumulating them for all these years. It's certainly not to play with the Pens, not under Bylsma's tutelage.

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01-25-2013, 04:51 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Fact: Name ONE forward in the Pens system since the lockout - I'm giving you a span of 8 years to find a single name - that was lighting up the AHL, then came up to the big club and did nothing. The fact is, you won't find a single one.
Colin McDonald.

But it depends on what is your criteria for "nothing", because there are other candidates.

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01-25-2013, 04:53 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Said it before, this Despres benching reminds me alot of 4 years ago. DB benched Letang and he came back into the lineup as a top 4 guy with Eaton and Whitney was moved.

I don't agree with the decision, but I'm seeing a similar path for Despres as Letang had a few years back.
I really, really hope you're right, because the alternative explanation is that Bylsma is **** when it comes to developing young players.

You have a higher end talent like Despres, and you're not seeing it. We've discussed Tangradi ad nauseum.

But, I'll even go one step further: Vitale on this team reminds me a lot of Talbot circa 2007-2008. Hard working. Great role player. Great character guy. But, has a little more to his game than your run of the mill Adams like fourth liner. Therrien would throw Talbot up there from time to time, especially when he earned it. Outside of the 16 games where Bylsma had no choice but to move Talbot to a second line (and at that point, Talbot did have a little track record), have you ever seen Bylsma say 'you know, I really like the way Vitale is playing . . . let's see what he can do with Geno and Neal tonight'. Or, have you ever seen him say, with all of that line juggling on a night like Tuesday, where everyone including the concession guy gets a try in the top six, 'well, Joe was one of the few guys bringing it every shift and nothing else was working, so I thought he earned it".

Letang seems like a good example, but the day Bylsma got Letang, he was far more along than any of the young kids we've been discussing.

Higher end prospect like Despres. Middle prospect like Tangradi was in 2009. Low end prospect like Vitale. Are you really impressed-- or anything but unimpressed-- with how Bylsma has treated guys like this?

It really does scare me to think what's in store for Bennett, Morrow, etc. Yeah, Bylsma is a good guy. Yeah, Bylsma was a pig in **** in 2009. From the day he's put his exclusive stamp on this team in the summer of 2009, it has underachieved where it counts, including the development of young players.

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01-25-2013, 04:54 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Depres has "looked promising" due to his very favorable zone starts and very weak opposition. It is a way to prop up a player you don't have much confidence in. I did not write him off, but I think he is not NHL ready on a contending team. I don't know anyone who would consider him a defensive D man or whatever you think he is. 2 way D man is about the closest you could come in the labeling of him. Funny how he was never used on the PK and only on the PP last year, wasn't it? I know nothing though.

Please see pg52
http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...harts_2012.pdf

I don't have any stats for this year until behindthenet provides them...usually 10 games in. I wouldn't want to base a decision only on 3 games of data anyways. His junior pt production would certainly put him as a offensive D man.
So we're supposed to look at pg52 where they mention Despres briefly in passing? Are you for real?

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01-25-2013, 04:55 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Sitting a young player for one game isn't the end of the world. Could be as simple as wanting to keep the bench-sitters fresh with a little game action.

To be honest, Despres is the first excellent prospect we've tried to incorporate under Bylsma, so we should give it a little time. The fact that he made the team over tenured guys is a pretty good omen.
It seems that having faith is better than looking at the body of evidence.

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01-25-2013, 04:59 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
People are still disappointed with Dupuis playing on the 1st line and rightly so. At least Dupuis brings other aspects to his game, which so far Tangradi hasn't shown.

Just cause DB and Shero have rode out one questionable decision (permanently attaching Dupuis to Sid's hip) to questionable results doesn't mean they should do it again. If Tangradi shows something playing on the 4th line, he'll likely get another chance sometime later. Tangradi could have forced DB's hand if he played well with Geno and Neal, but he didn't. He's still got a chance to make an impression on the 4th line and he better make the most of it.
I don't mind Dupuis with Sid at all, in fact I've loved Dupuis style of play since he first joined the pens. (As a side note I try to model myself after his kind of play). He chases the puck and does the little things to help. I really have like his forechecking and has been a rock on the PK. He doesn't hold sid back. and even without Sid dupuis has been able to produce points, see his 27 game point streak last season and his career year overall.

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01-25-2013, 05:00 PM
  #222
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Any corrections I need to do to the GDT, or anything anyone knows of that I should add to it?

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01-25-2013, 05:01 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I really, really hope you're right, because the alternative explanation is that Bylsma is **** when it comes to developing young players.

You have a higher end talent like Despres, and you're not seeing it. We've discussed Tangradi ad nauseum.

But, I'll even go one step further: Vitale on this team reminds me a lot of Talbot circa 2007-2008. Hard working. Great role player. Great character guy. But, has a little more to his game than your run of the mill Adams like fourth liner. Therrien would throw Talbot up there from time to time, especially when he earned it. Outside of the 16 games where Bylsma had no choice but to move Talbot to a second line (and at that point, Talbot did have a little track record), have you ever seen Bylsma say 'you know, I really like the way Vitale is playing . . . let's see what he can do with Geno and Neal tonight'. Or, have you ever seen him say, with all of that line juggling on a night like Tuesday, where everyone including the concession guy gets a try in the top six, 'well, Joe was one of the few guys bringing it every shift and nothing else was working, so I thought he earned it".

Letang seems like a good example, but the day Bylsma got Letang, he was far more along than any of the young kids we've been discussing.

Higher end prospect like Despres. Middle prospect like Tangradi was in 2009. Low end prospect like Vitale. Are you really impressed-- or anything but unimpressed-- with how Bylsma has treated guys like this?

It really does scare me to think what's in store for Bennett, Morrow, etc. Yeah, Bylsma is a good guy. Yeah, Bylsma was a pig in **** in 2009. From the day he's put his exclusive stamp on this team in the summer of 2009, it has underachieved where it counts, including the development of young players.
It's funny, I forget what it was on, maybe the last Road to the Winter Classic? When Bylsma ran into the now-Flyer-Talbot outside the locker rooms and said something like, "So, you're scoring goals now!" You could tell Talbot was thinking, "No ****, of course I'm scoring now!"

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01-25-2013, 05:02 PM
  #224
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I actually thought Despres had his best game against the Leafs. He made a real nice back handed clear that a lot of players wouldn't have been able to do.

I don't care if they keep him up, I don't care if they send him down. I do care that they bench him where he learns nothing. For Ben Lovejoy none the less. I just don't get what games Bylsma is watching.

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01-25-2013, 05:02 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I personally think one of management's best decisions was to keep Despres with the big club so he could play an average of 9:57 TOI/G. I mean clearly that's helping him become a better defender than just sending him back down to the minors to log big minutes in a top pairing role. At the very least it allowed us to rid ourselves of that worthless defender Brian Strait who had to clear waivers, unlike Despres. Strait sucked so much he's been picked up by the Islanders, and has even been put with Mark Streit. You only do that with players that have no future in the league. Hell even Islander fans have been saying he's playing well, and you know how dubious their opinions are.

Oh and while were at it, another brilliant decision of management was to give Tangradi an average of 8:27 TOI/G so far. I mean what forward DOESN'T develop with tons of ice time like that? I know if I was developing a young player the first thing I would do would be to put him with players he doesn't have chemistry with, and then yank him off of that line the very instant he messes up. You don't want him not being held accountable for his mistakes now would you? Oh don't mind the fact that just about every other player up and down the lineup has made plenty of mistakes in every game. We aren't trying to develop those players into top-6ers.

One last thing. I think it's a brilliant idea to put a guy who only shoots every time he touches the puck and never passes with 2 of the top 10 goal scorers in the league from a season ago. Brilliant coaching decision. I'm sure it will work out.
Shirley, you can't be serious.

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