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Senators vs Maple leafs(Honest discussion)

View Poll Results: Choose one.
Sens now and later 239 85.05%
Leafs now and later 13 4.63%
Sens now, Leafs later 23 8.19%
Leafs now, Sens later 6 2.14%
Voters: 281. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-25-2013, 04:14 PM
  #126
QuattroFTW
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Sens now and in future, but honestly all the Leafs need are a good #1 goaltender and reliable consistent defense to be a legitimate playoff team. They have no trouble scoring, it's just keeping them out of the net that's been an issue for so long.

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Old
01-25-2013, 05:19 PM
  #127
saskriders
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RollTheBones109 View Post
How is that the most important stat in a thread half-dedicated to future seasons?
The future is being built around current pieces. Ottawa's current pieces win more. Simple as that

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Old
01-25-2013, 05:37 PM
  #128
RollTheBones109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskriders View Post
The future is being built around current pieces. Ottawa's current pieces win more. Simple as that
Edmonton now and in the future or San Jose now and in the future? San Jose's pieces win more, so you would have to choose them. There isn't a single team that doesn't build its future around current pieces (ask Doug Wilson if the acquisitions for his team's future are shaped by the current pieces), so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Ottawa has a better core? Sure, no argument here. Is that the end of the discussion? Absolutely not, unless you're a fan of black-and-white oversimplification.

You haven't expressed much in terms of actually wanting to discuss this, though, so I'm gonna end this here.

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01-25-2013, 05:43 PM
  #129
saskriders
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Originally Posted by RollTheBones109 View Post
Edmonton now and in the future or San Jose now and in the future? San Jose's pieces win more, so you would have to choose them. There isn't a single team that doesn't build its future around current pieces (ask Doug Wilson if the acquisitions for his team's future are shaped by the current pieces), so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Ottawa has a better core? Sure, no argument here. Is that the end of the discussion? Absolutely not, unless you're a fan of black-and-white oversimplification.

You haven't expressed much in terms of actually wanting to discuss this, though, so I'm gonna end this here.
San Jose-Edmonton isn't a fair comparison. San Jose is declining while Edmonton is rising. Ottawa and Toronto are both in a rebuild right now. And Ottawa's better core gives them a huge advantage in building towards the future, considering they will be the role players. Hence the term "core"

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Old
01-25-2013, 05:51 PM
  #130
RollTheBones109
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Originally Posted by saskriders View Post
San Jose-Edmonton isn't a fair comparison. San Jose is declining while Edmonton is rising. Ottawa and Toronto are both in a rebuild right now. And Ottawa's better core gives them a huge advantage in building towards the future, considering they will be the role players. Hence the term "core"
Rebuilds can occur at different paces. Teams can be 'rebuilding' and still in different situations, so just because two teams are ostensibly rebuilding does not automatically make the comparison logical.

Now, why do you assume the core of either team is static? Various prospects can step up. Individuals can have off years. Alfie's decline could accelerate. Anderson could regress to his 2010-2011 Colorado form. To assume that the only future changes will be role players does not make any sense to me. No Toronto fan would assume our 'core' is going to stay the same, so just looking at last year is insufficient in my eyes.

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01-25-2013, 06:03 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by RollTheBones109 View Post
Rebuilds can occur at different paces. Teams can be 'rebuilding' and still in different situations, so just because two teams are ostensibly rebuilding does not automatically make the comparison logical.

Now, why do you assume the core of either team is static? Various prospects can step up. Individuals can have off years. Alfie's decline could accelerate. Anderson could regress to his 2010-2011 Colorado form. To assume that the only future changes will be role players does not make any sense to me. No Toronto fan would assume our 'core' is going to stay the same, so just looking at last year is insufficient in my eyes.
Of course people can decline, but if we are looking at the future we have to speculate on what is likely to happen, and I don't think it is very likely that the under 30s Spezza, Karlsson, and Turris are all going to go into a big decline in the next 2-3 years. And yes cores change, but good core players don't come easy. If you aren't going to draft them then you are going to have to give up other valuable assets for them.

So, to have a better future than Ottawa, Toronto either has to draft and develop some prospects that can equal or at least come close to Ottawa's core (which would take a few years, while Ottawa's planned future core is at least half in place depending on what you consider core). Or the Leafs can give up multiple assets and support players to get that core, but in turn lack the support and draft players to fill those roles.

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Old
01-25-2013, 10:26 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Top-25 Prospects, this year's stats:


D M.Rielly (18, WHL): 36gms, 7gls, 29pts, -3, 5pim (82gms, 16gls, 66pts, -2, 11pim)
G R.Lehner (21, AHL): 21gms, 14-5-1, 1.90gaa, 1so, .945sv%

C N.Kadri (22, NHL): 3gms, 2gls, 3pts, +1, 12:25 (82gms, 55gls, 82pts) - AHL: 27gms, 8gls, 26pts (82gms, 24gls, 79pts)
W J.Silfverberg (22, NHL): 2gms, 1gls, 1pts, +2, 16:05 (82gms, 41gls, 41pts) - AHL: 34gms, 13gls, 29pts (82gms, 31gls, 70pts)

W M.Frattin (24, AHL): 21gms, 9gls, 17pts, +14, 17pim (82gms, 35gls, 66pts, +55, 66pim)
C M.Zibanejad (19, AHL): 21gms, 4gls, 11pts, +2, 10pim (82gms, 16gls, 43pts, +8, 39pim)

C J.Colborne (22, AHL): 35gms, 5gls, 20pts, +6, 35pim (82gms, 12gls, 47pts, +14, 82pim)
W M.Stone (20, AHL): 33gms, 7gls, 18pts, +13, 8pim (82gms, 17gls, 45pts, +32, 20pim)

D M.Finn (18, OHL): 36gms, 11gls, 29pts, +0, 22pim (82gms, 25gls, 66pts, +0, 50pim)
D C.Ceci (19, OHL): 48gms, 12gls, 45pts, -12, 10pim (82gms, 21gls, 77pts, -21, 17pim)


W T.Biggs (19, OHL): 41gms, 17gls, 38pts, +7, 51pim (82gms, 34gls, 76pts, +14, 102pim)
W S.Noesen (19, OHL): 29gms, 17gls, 26pts, -3, 31pim (82gms, 48gls, 74pts, -9, 88pim)

D S.Percy (19, OHL): 45gms, 10gls, 28pts, -2, 26pim (82gms, 18gls, 51pts, -4, 47pim)
D P.Wiercioch (22, AHL): 32gms, 10gls, 19pts, +1, 2pim (82gms, 26gls, 49pts, +3, 5pim)

W C.Ashton (21, AHL): 37gms, 8gls, 14pts, +5, 40pim (82gms, 18gls, 31pts, +11, 89pim)
W M.Puempel (19, OHL): 28gms, 21gls, 28pts, +6, 21pim (82gms, 62gls, 82pts, +18, 62pim)

W J.D'Amigo (21, AHL): 33gms, 5gls, 12pts, +0, 17pim (82gms, 12gls, 30pts, +0, 42pim)
W S.Prince (20, AHL): 30gms, 7gls, 12pts, +4, 12pim (82gms, 19gls, 33pts, +11, 33pim)

C G.McKegg (20, AHL): 26gms, 5gls, 8pts, +0, 4pim (82gms, 16gls, 25pts, +0, 13pim)
C J.Pageau (20, AHL): 38gms, 2gls, 13pts, +5, 16pim (82gms, 4gls, 28pts, +11, 35pim)


W S.Abbott (24, AHL): 22gms, 4gls, 16pts, +7, 6pim (82gms, 15gls, 60pts, +26, 22pim)
W S.DaCosta (23, AHL): 27gms, 9gls, 23pts, +8, 10pim (82gms, 27gls, 70pts, +24, 30pim)

G J.Rynnas (25, AHL): 11gms, 6-4-1, 2.07gaa, 3so, .933sv%
C M.Hoffman (23, AHL): 36gms, 11gls, 23pts, +7, 34pim (82gms, 25gls, 52pts, +16, 77pim)

W N.Deschamps (22, AHL): 34gms, 5gls, 10pts, +2, 22pim (82gms, 12gls, 25pts, +5, 53pim)
W A.Petersson (22, AHL): 17gms, 2gls, 5pts, -7, 16pim (82gms, 10gls, 24pts, -34, 77pim)

D K.Holzer (24, AHL): 30gms, 1gls, 8pts, +12, 26pim (82gms, 3gls, 22pts, +33, 71pim)
D M.Borowiecki (23, AHL): 26gms, 2gls, 6pts, +12, 96pim (82gms, 6gls, 19pts, +38, 303pim)

W J.Leivo (19, OHL): 41gms, 21gls, 52pts, +15, 40pim (82gms, 42gls, 104pts, +30, 80pim)
D M.Wikstrand (19, SEL): 33gms, 11gls, 22pts, +5, 6pim (82gms, 27gls, 55pts, +6, 12pim)


G M.Owuya (23, AHL): 5gms, 3-2-0, 3.37gaa, 0so, .845sv%
X

W C.Brown (18, OHL): 47gms, 25gls, 59pts, -1, 31pim (82gms, 44gls, 103pts, -2, 54pim)
X

C K.Ryan (21, AHL): 23gms, 4gls, 9pts, +1, 14pim (82gms, 14gls, 32pts, +4, 50pim)
C D.Grant (22, AHL): 39gms, 13gls, 18pts, +6, 19pim (82gms, 27gls, 38pts, +14, 40pim)

D J.Blacker (21, AHL): 29gms, 0gls, 3pts, +0, 17pim (82gms, 0gls, 9pts, +0, 48pim)
D F.Claesson (20, AHL): 33gms, 0gls, 6pts, +4, 32pim (82gms, 0gls, 15pts, +10, 80pim)

W B.Ross (20, AHL): 16gms, 1gls, 1pts, +2, 9pim (82gms, 5gls, 5pts, +10, 46pim)
X


G G.Sparks (19, OHL): 38gms, 23-8-4, 2.62gaa, 5so, .918sv%
G C.Driedger (18, WHL): 37gms, 25-9-3, 2.26gaa, 1so, .921sv%

C R.Rupert (18, CHL): 35gms, 8gls, 32pts, +11, 54pim (82gms, 19gls, 75pts, +26, 127pim)
C J.Maidens (18, CHL): ---

D T.Nilsson (19, SEL): 30gms, 1gls, 3pgs, -8, 16pim (82gms, 3gls, 8pts, -22, 44pim)
D J.Fransoo (19, WHL): 40gms, 3gls, 12pts, -8, 55pim (82gms, 6gls, 24pts, -16, 113pim)

W D.Broll (19, OHL): 47gms, 14gls, 41pts, +8, 48pim (82gms, 24gls, 72pts, +14, 84pim)
G F.Brassard (18, QHL): 39gms, 20-14-3, 2.91gaa, 2so, .900sv%

X
X
Not that this post is worth quoting, but why do you not put in the same amount of players for both teams? Why would you leave out the NCAA guys?

Where is a guy like Gryba? He just played as an alternate in the AHL all star game. Where is Cole Schneider? Michael Sdao? Dzingel? McCormick?

Admittedly these guys are unlikely to become more than bottom pairing defencemen or bottom 6 forwards but nevertheless, it seems misleading to leave blank "x" comparisons when you could put in a guy who is playing great hockey and just played in the AHL all star game.

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Old
01-26-2013, 01:25 AM
  #133
ReginKarlssonLehner
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Senators now and future AINEC. They have all the core pieces and future pieces in place to be a powerhouse in all facets of the game for years to come.

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