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Mark Scheifele sent back to Barrie Colts (OHL)

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Old
01-25-2013, 03:25 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Not sure what is so wrong with running with...
Ladd - Little - Wheeler
Kane - Jokinen - Scheifele
Ponikarovsky - Antropov - Burmistrov

For at least a game or two and get a real chance to play games.
What's wrong with that is Kane - Jokinen - Wheeler were pretty dominant against Washington whereas LLW haven't had much of anything going for the time where they play together. I think KJW need to stay together. If you really want to do trial by fire, you throw Scheifele in with Ladd and Little (either centre or right wing) and see how he hangs with that group.

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01-25-2013, 03:27 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by StronGeer View Post
What's wrong with that is Kane - Jokinen - Wheeler were pretty dominant against Washington whereas LLW haven't had much of anything going for the time where they play together. I think KJW need to stay together. If you really want to do trial by fire, you throw Scheifele in with Ladd and Little (either centre or right wing) and see how he hangs with that group.
Agree.

Kane - Jokinen - Wheeler
Ladd - Scheifele - Little
Ponikarovsky - Antropov - Burmistrov


As the top 9. Perhaps we see that combination soon. I really hope so.

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01-25-2013, 03:30 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
I don't think Scheifele has been clearly better than Wellwood or anybody else in the top 9 and I really don't think he has a chance of cracking the top 6 this year.

Never did.

The "didn't get a fair chance" thing is silly when you don't know what parameters he was given or what the team wants from him. You are stacking assumptions on top of opinions. Many here are.
What's your assertion? That the Jets want Scheifele to be a 4th line grinder? That will help the team now and later? That will best for Scheifele? Really?

Scheifele has to be "clearly" better than Wellwood, well has Wellwood be "clearly" better than Scheifele? Or Burmistrov? etc, etc.

If their definition of a fair chance is sticking him on the fourth line with some garbage PP time, then the team has "defined their parameters" completely wrong, IMO. And the whole organization needs a review, since it is quite clearly wrong. Scheifele is not going be grinder, a bottom line player. His skill set clearly does not belong on an energy line (which is what Noel is using that 4th line as). If that's the assumption you dislike, I quite frankly cannot understand it. It's the most basic of assumptions, anything else makes 0 sense.

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01-25-2013, 03:31 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by StronGeer View Post
What's wrong with that is Kane - Jokinen - Wheeler were pretty dominant against Washington whereas LLW haven't had much of anything going for the time where they play together. I think KJW need to stay together. If you really want to do trial by fire, you throw Scheifele in with Ladd and Little (either centre or right wing) and see how he hangs with that group.
Sure, whatever. So long as Scheifele gets some half decent offensive players to play with.

And it would be nice if Noel would stick with a lineup for more than one ******* period. Every period pretty much he is mixing and matching the lines. Go with something and stick with it. Sure you can rotate Wright/Thorburn in and out on the 4th line, but keep some lines together, changing so much does not help anybody. Particularly dismantling the USSR line is a bad move, IMO, leaves us without a line that can take the top defensive minutes.

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01-25-2013, 03:34 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Not sure what is so wrong with running with...
Ladd - Little - Wheeler
Kane - Jokinen - Scheifele
Ponikarovsky - Antropov - Burmistrov
There "could" be many issues with that lineup.

-An inexperienced rookie may not be able to handle 1st line checking matchups or opponents like Sidney Crosby.
-Disrupting the growth of chemistry is a short season.
-Irritating teammates by elevating a rookie who clearly isn't ready.

There are many reasons not to do it.

Nothing is cut and dry and this is as simple as you are making it sound.

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01-25-2013, 03:35 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Agree.

Kane - Jokinen - Wheeler
Ladd - Scheifele - Little
Ponikarovsky - Antropov - Burmistrov


As the top 9. Perhaps we see that combination soon. I really hope so.
Careful. I'm not sure you're allowed to have a "top 9" on a hockey team in this day & age. Apparently you can only dress six forwards who know where the opponent's net is. Otherwise, they can't play.

Top six, bottom six. What bs.

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01-25-2013, 03:36 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
There "could" be many issues with that lineup.

-An inexperienced rookie may not be able to handle 1st line checking matchups or opponents like Sidney Crosby.
-Disrupting the growth of chemistry is a short season.
-Irritating teammates by elevating a rookie who clearly isn't ready.

There are many reasons not to do it.

Nothing is cut and dry and this is as simple as you are making it sound.
1) USSR line should be facing 1st line checking matchups
2) That's the lineup they should be "growing the chemistry" with, IMO.
3) Says you. Many here feel like me he is ready.

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01-25-2013, 03:43 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
What's your assertion? That the Jets want Scheifele to be a 4th line grinder? That will help the team now and later? That will best for Scheifele? Really?

Scheifele has to be "clearly" better than Wellwood, well has Wellwood be "clearly" better than Scheifele? Or Burmistrov? etc, etc.

If their definition of a fair chance is sticking him on the fourth line with some garbage PP time, then the team has "defined their parameters" completely wrong, IMO. And the whole organization needs a review, since it is quite clearly wrong. Scheifele is not going be grinder, a bottom line player. His skill set clearly does not belong on an energy line (which is what Noel is using that 4th line as). If that's the assumption you dislike, I quite frankly cannot understand it. It's the most basic of assumptions, anything else makes 0 sense.
My assertion is:

I don't know why they put him there or what they want him to show. You don't either, so pretending we know the greater plan or what he has shown relative to TNSE expectations is fruitless.

Maybe their biggest concern is physicality. Maybe they put him there to see how he handled himself. Maybe he hasn't met their expectations. I don't know. You don't know.

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01-25-2013, 03:50 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
1) USSR line should be facing 1st line checking matchups
2) That's the lineup they should be "growing the chemistry" with, IMO.
3) Says you. Many here feel like me he is ready.
I didn't say he wasn't ready, because I don't know. I could be wrong, so could you and anybody else on here. I said it may be apparent to his coaches and teammates that he isn't ready, in which case it would be very very stupid to put him on the top line.

Thus far, Olli and Kane have been getting pretty tough matchups.

My point was, any claim that Mark has been mistreated should be prefaced with a number of IMOs and IFs because nobody here knows the whole everything.

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01-25-2013, 03:58 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
I didn't say he wasn't ready, because I don't know. I could be wrong, so could you and anybody else on here. I said it may be apparent to his coaches and teammates that he isn't ready, in which case it would be very very stupid to put him on the top line.

Thus far, Olli and Kane have been getting pretty tough matchups.

My point was, any claim that Mark has been mistreated should be prefaced with a number of IMOs and IFs because nobody here knows the whole everything.
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Urgh...yet that only applies to rookies and youngsters it seems.

Scheifele should be in the lineup, IMO. Scheifele has not gotten a fair shake at all, IMO.


And I've already stated many times I have pretty much zero faith in Noel, which is basically the whole point. And the whole point of the Poni-Antro-Burmi 3rd line is that they should be shutdown line, the fact that Kane-Joki is getting the tough minutes just sinks my faith even lower in Noel. He is not using his improved roster any better than last year, not adapting to having a 3rd line to shutdown other teams.

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01-25-2013, 04:03 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post


And I've already stated many times I have pretty much zero faith in Noel, which is basically the whole point. And the whole point of the Poni-Antro-Burmi 3rd line is that they should be shutdown line, the fact that Kane-Joki is getting the tough minutes just sinks my faith even lower in Noel. He is not using his improved roster any better than last year, not adapting to having a 3rd line to shutdown other teams.
Really...didn't notice I am just funnin with ya.

I think it is great that the kid is here, and soaking up the NHL. Are there 9 better forwards than him right now....eh, who knows - but I say yes. Are Slater and Thorburn that horrible that Mark is withering away into a low skill journeyman? I say too early to tell...give me another couple of games and I will write him off then!

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01-25-2013, 04:05 PM
  #287
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To be clear, I would like to see what Scheifele can do with top 6 minutes. I have proposed a number of lineups that slide him into the top 6 and for purely selfish purposes I would like to watch him develop here. I just don't get the claims that he has or hasn't earned top 6 minutes without knowing everything there is to know about Scheifele or the TNSE thought process.

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01-25-2013, 04:08 PM
  #288
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I think he's a tweener. Nothing to gain from playing in Barrie, but not ready to play meaningful minutes on a night in night out basis here.

This is one of those cases when the age rule for the AHL doesn't work. Teams should be allowed at least one exemption. Scheifele could get the experience of playing, training, living like a pro and playing against men. Learning the org's systems. All without compromising the Jets ability to win.

Before people jump on me I am not saying that Scheifele hurts our chances to win when he is in the lineup. I am saying that rookies make mistakes, more mistakes than vets, and the coach seems to agree with this. You have to ice the best lineup possible, and if that is minus Scheifele right now, then so be it.

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01-25-2013, 04:11 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post


And I've already stated many times I have pretty much zero faith in Noel, which is basically the whole point. And the whole point of the Poni-Antro-Burmi 3rd line is that they should be shutdown line, the fact that Kane-Joki is getting the tough minutes just sinks my faith even lower in Noel. He is not using his improved roster any better than last year, not adapting to having a 3rd line to shutdown other teams.
Kane and Olli have received tough matchups, but much of that is due to opposing coaches and being on the road.

I have no idea how Noel plans to match lines.

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01-25-2013, 04:15 PM
  #290
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I think he's a tweener. Nothing to gain from playing in Barrie, but not ready to play meaningful minutes on a night in night out basis here.

This is one of those cases when the age rule for the AHL doesn't work. Teams should be allowed at least one exemption. Scheifele could get the experience of playing, training, living like a pro and playing against men. Learning the org's systems. All without compromising the Jets ability to win.

Before people jump on me I am not saying that Scheifele hurts our chances to win when he is in the lineup. I am saying that rookies make mistakes, more mistakes than vets, and the coach seems to agree with this. You have to ice the best lineup possible, and if that is minus Scheifele right now, then so be it.
I like multi position players.

If Scheifele makes the team it gives the Jets a ton of options when injuries happen. Antro, Little, Welly, Burmi, Scheifele would make for interesting flexibility.

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01-25-2013, 04:15 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
To be clear, I would like to see what Scheifele can do with top 6 minutes. I have proposed a number of lineups that slide him into the top 6 and for purely selfish purposes I would like to watch him develop here. I just don't get the claims that he has or hasn't earned top 6 minutes without knowing everything there is to know about Scheifele or the TNSE thought process.
If we needed to know everything about what Chevy, Noel and the rest of the team was thinking before commenting, we might as well shut down these boards. There'd be nothing to talk about.

I have said based on his play here and in Barrie he has earned a CHANCE. That's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
I think he's a tweener. Nothing to gain from playing in Barrie, but not ready to play meaningful minutes on a night in night out basis here.

This is one of those cases when the age rule for the AHL doesn't work. Teams should be allowed at least one exemption. Scheifele could get the experience of playing, training, living like a pro and playing against men. Learning the org's systems. All without compromising the Jets ability to win.

Before people jump on me I am not saying that Scheifele hurts our chances to win when he is in the lineup. I am saying that rookies make mistakes, more mistakes than vets, and the coach seems to agree with this. You have to ice the best lineup possible, and if that is minus Scheifele right now, then so be it.
Agreed on icing the best possible lineup. But how would anybody ever break into the league if you held by these standards so strictly? You need to take Scheifele's talent with the possible mistakes he makes. And it's not like the veterans don't make mistakes. I just don't get why he needs to be picked on since he is a rookie, his every mistake is amplified. I'd argue he has made less mistakes than plenty of veterans on this team. Some of the top teams in the league are using rookies in key roles, ie Dougie Hamilton playing top 4 in Boston.

Coaches are there to put the best roster on the ice. I think Noel amplifies rookies mistakes and unfairly makes a big deal out of them. It's not that Scheifele makes more mistakes, but that Noel judges them harsher since he is a rookie. He has shown a pattern of doing this over his time here. He will even go useless guys he knows rather than going with the best players, IMO.

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01-25-2013, 04:21 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
If we needed to know everything about what Chevy, Noel and the rest of the team was thinking before commenting, we might as well shut down these boards. There'd be nothing to talk about.

I have said based on his play here and in Barrie he has earned a CHANCE. That's it.



Agreed on icing the best possible lineup. But how would anybody ever break into the league if you held by these standards so strictly? You need to take Scheifele's talent with the possible mistakes he makes. And it's not like the veterans don't make mistakes. I just don't get why he needs to be picked on since he is a rookie, his every mistake is amplified. I'd argue he has made less mistakes than plenty of veterans on this team. Some of the top teams in the league are using rookies in key roles, ie Dougie Hamilton playing top 4 in Boston.

Coaches are there to put the best roster on the ice. I think Noel amplifies rookies mistakes and unfairly makes a big deal out of them. It's not that Scheifele makes more mistakes, but that Noel judges them harsher since he is a rookie. He has shown a pattern of doing this over his time here. He will even go useless guys he knows rather than going with the best players, IMO.
I understand opinions and speculation. I just don't get outrage, especially outrage based on false premises or assumptions.

That is a generality, not about any one person, take or comment.

Shrug.

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01-25-2013, 04:22 PM
  #293
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Agreed. My only thought is that perhaps they've decided that Scheif will be sticking around, in which case I would expect him to be an occasional healthy scratch over the course of the year.
Sure, but make sure its for the right reasons. Don't scratch him because you didn't like his game. Scratch him because its part of the plan for his all around development, I.e. different game perspective, want to get his strength up so you limit games to build muscle etc. Just don't scratch him for making mistakes, he's young and it will play with his confidence. Plus I didn't see any glaring mistakes by him last game.

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01-25-2013, 04:22 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
If we needed to know everything about what Chevy, Noel and the rest of the team was thinking before commenting, we might as well shut down these boards. There'd be nothing to talk about.

I have said based on his play here and in Barrie he has earned a CHANCE. That's it.



Agreed on icing the best possible lineup. But how would anybody ever break into the league if you held by these standards so strictly? You need to take Scheifele's talent with the possible mistakes he makes. And it's not like the veterans don't make mistakes. I just don't get why he needs to be picked on since he is a rookie, his every mistake is amplified. I'd argue he has made less mistakes than plenty of veterans on this team. Some of the top teams in the league are using rookies in key roles, ie Dougie Hamilton playing top 4 in Boston.

Coaches are there to put the best roster on the ice. I think Noel amplifies rookies mistakes and unfairly makes a big deal out of them. It's not that Scheifele makes more mistakes, but that Noel judges them harsher since he is a rookie. He has shown a pattern of doing this over his time here. He will even go useless guys he knows rather than going with the best players, IMO.
I have seen this argument made against several coaches. If it was just one guy there might be some merit, but since many coaches are accused of this it leads me to believe that it's more complex than that.

Unlike you, I like Noel. He's not perfect, but there aren't many coaches who are. I will trust his judgement when it comes to who to dress, who to play and when. He's there every day -- in practice, in games, off ice sessions and meetings.

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01-25-2013, 04:31 PM
  #295
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Quote:
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I understand opinions and speculation. I just don't get outrage, especially outrage based on false premises or assumptions.

That is a generality, not about any one person, take or comment.

Shrug.
I guess if you have absolute faith in the management team. I don't have that. I will never have that. With any management team. Every single hockey person, no matter how tuned in or smart, makes mistakes. We are free to be outraged when we feel they are making a mistake. Maybe we're wrong, maybe we're right.

The fact that's a false premise or assumption cannot be known. We cannot be in Chevy or Noel's mind. So if want to use that to cut somebodies argument, it doesn't make sense.

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I have seen this argument made against several coaches. If it was just one guy there might be some merit, but since many coaches are accused of this it leads me to believe that it's more complex than that.

Unlike you, I like Noel. He's not perfect, but there aren't many coaches who are. I will trust his judgement when it comes to who to dress, who to play and when. He's there every day -- in practice, in games, off ice sessions and meetings.
And more than several coaches get fired every year. By the same token you have a coach like Renney who trusted his rookies completely...and finished at the bottom of the league. You need balance, it's hard to do. But the best teams balance that. Sutter turned the Kings around with rookies.

If all it took was getting a head coaching job and being there all the time anybody could do it. Everybody makes mistakes. I don't agree with far too many of his decisions. And honestly, Noel does not have any results to back him up, he has done nothing to earn blind loyalty.

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01-25-2013, 05:02 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I guess if you have absolute faith in the management team. I don't have that. I will never have that. With any management team. Every single hockey person, no matter how tuned in or smart, makes mistakes. We are free to be outraged when we feel they are making a mistake. Maybe we're wrong, maybe we're right.

The fact that's a false premise or assumption cannot be known. We cannot be in Chevy or Noel's mind. So if want to use that to cut somebodies argument, it doesn't make sense.
Nobody is advocating blind faith. I have openly questioned decisions by both Noel and Chevy, but don't have near enough sample to know if either is good or bad at their job.

It takes years to to tell whether or not a GM is any good and there is very little you can learn about a coach who has no talent.

I understand pointing out what you or anybody else sees as an issue or running through possible scenarios, but I don't understand definites or outrage based on opinions or assumptions. Maybe that is just me.

Not telling anybody to stop, just saying that is how I think.

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01-25-2013, 05:23 PM
  #297
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Should be Schiefele in, Wright out

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01-25-2013, 05:30 PM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
I don't want Scheifele to make the Jets until Jim Slater is gone because I would rather see him wear 19 than 55. Why does anybody care if he stays or goes? Not a single person here KNOWS what will yield a better result.

If he goes back he goes back. If he stays he stays.
I care about keeping guys who can help the Jets win.

I'm not looking at it from a developmental standpoint. To me, having Scheifele in the Jets lineup makes them better, however slight that effect may be.

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01-25-2013, 06:14 PM
  #299
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I'd like to see Scheifele get some time for a few games on one of the top two lines before making a decision about his season. Appears at this point he could use more seasoning in the AHL. But it's early. And yeah, skating on the 4th line isn't going to help him playing up with the Jets. My two cents.

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01-25-2013, 06:16 PM
  #300
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Ladies and Germs,

We've been lucky in that we've not had any injuries so far up front. But we will. It's inevitable.

So those of you who want Scheifele sent back to play with the boys in Barrie - who do you feel is better than him on the farm to fill in?

My answer. NOBODY

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