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Peter Bondra, hockey hall of fame?

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01-23-2013, 01:43 PM
  #126
jepjepjoo
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Do you realize I'm comparing their primes during dead puck era?
No, you just compared Bondra's best stretch of hockey to random years of hockey for Selanne and Bure.

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01-23-2013, 02:17 PM
  #127
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No, you just compared Bondra's best stretch of hockey to random years of hockey for Selanne and Bure.
Well, I would say Selanne's prime was definitely in mid-to-late 90s, Bure had something like 2 primes - agree.

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01-23-2013, 02:35 PM
  #128
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You compare him to bunch of centers who if for nothing else had many assists as well. Shanahan is interesting though, although i totally agree with the induction commitee that he was not a first-ballot guy. Better than Bondra though.

Edit: Let me rephrase that come to think of it. Bondra might very well have had a petter peak than Shanny. Certainly a better goalscorer.
Bondra's peak wasn't even close to Shanny's. Bondra brought nothing but offense and still never finished top 10 in scoring.

Anyway, I'm merging this thread with an older Bondra for HHOF thread.

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01-23-2013, 03:22 PM
  #129
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Reached 500 goals faster than:

(Bold are Hall of Famers)

Jean Beliveau
Brendan Shanahan
Mike Modano
Mats Sundin
Jarome Iginla

And was less than 10 games within these players when he reached 500:

Gordie Howe
Mark Messier

Joe Sakic


What do you guys think about this travesty?
Well let's look at this under a microscope. I think even the biggest Bondra supporters can agree that the guy was a one trick pony who brought nothing more than scoring goals. He didn't even get assists if you want to know the extent of it.

Beliveau was a playmaker before a goal scorer. He also played in a low scoring era his entire career. So this will lead to his lower GPG than Bondra. Modano and Sundin were centers and goal scoring was secondary to them. They both also brought more to the table than Bondra. Modano has the playoff record and the defensive prescence and Sundin aged well and was a model of consistency his whole career. Not to mention, while we're at it, he scored more goals than Bondra overall. The other two are Iginla and Shanahan and do we even need to bring up how much more valuable they were than Bondra?

I don't see a case for him at all. Yes he played in much of the dead puck era but he also played in the early to mid 1990s and racked up his share of goals there too. Also had some strange "off" years in the middle of his career that stick out like a sore thumb. I've said it before, if you are a one trick pony you'd better ensure you do it as good as anyone else in the game, and Bondra didnt. Bure at least had more elite seasons coupled with a better playoff portfolio and a lovely run in 1994.

One other thing about Bondra, he is very much below a point per game in his career.

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01-23-2013, 03:57 PM
  #130
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Well, I would say Selanne's prime was definitely in mid-to-late 90s, Bure had something like 2 primes - agree.
Sure, but in 94-95 he was coming back from career threathening cut achilles tendon injury and 00-02 he had his knee problems. His prime was from 96-97 to 99-00.

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01-23-2013, 05:26 PM
  #131
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Bondra's peak wasn't even close to Shanny's. Bondra brought nothing but offense and still never finished top 10 in scoring.

Anyway, I'm merging this thread with an older Bondra for HHOF thread.
Yes you're right, i should'nt have rephrased that one simply remembering his mid to late nineties. I also have a lot of frustration left from when the debate against Sundin was going on after the HoF-induction. At a different level here obviously, but Bondra was good offensively back then.

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01-24-2013, 10:47 AM
  #132
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I think Alexander Mogilny has a much better HOF case than Bondra, or at least he should have, and Mogilny's case is a pretty weak one although he scored 1000+ points in less than 1000 games, led the league in goals one year, was a top 10 scorer twice, won a cup, and is a triple gold club member, Mogilny's two best season in 92–93 and 95–96 are easily better than any season by Bondra

Bondra played 1081 games and didn't even hit 900 points, that's weak for someone who's all about offense to be in the HOF, and Bondra played many seasons in the early 90s when the game was super open and all about offense, so the DPE is not really an argument here

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For the good amount of time like 1995 - 2002 he was the best goalscorer in the NHL not named Jaromir. Yes, better than Bure or Selanne in terms of goals totals. I don't doubt lack of points, Bondra was a sniper. But man, what a sniper! I read a lot on HFboards calling him poor man's Bure. No. In terms of goalscoring he was on par with him and Selanne. And also at the time he was the fastest skater out there, even better than Bure. During mentioned period Bure won Richard Trophy three times, Bondra twice but scored way more goals...
I don't know why he is bashed here so much. It reminds me Hossa - Elias - Alfredsson case where Elias and Alfredsson will be inducted in HOF by HFboars standards and Hossa not. Bure and Selanne are praised here but during their primes (!) Bondra was better scorer. Bure barely hit 90 points during prime why he is not bashed and Bondra is with his 80. Give Selanne Kristich, Pivonka or Nikolishin (Bondra's centers) instead of Kariya and he wouldn't crack 100 too.
Bure and Selänne were top 5 in points three times each, Bondra was top 10 in points zero times, that's everything you need to know about that

Selänne and Bure were "slightly" better goal scorers than Bondra but much better hockey players, Selänne and Bure could actually make plays for teammates, create offense from nowhere, and carry a teams offense alone, and both played with an edge, you would never see Bondra crash the goalie or try to "Shane Churla" anyone

also Michal Pivonka was a good player, not great of course but good enough, both Bure and Selänne would have said thank you very much playing with Pivonka, you know Bure scored 60 goals in a season playing on a line with the great center Murray Craven? and won back to back Maurice Richard's with Viktor Kozlov as his set up man?

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01-24-2013, 04:07 PM
  #133
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I am not trying to make a case for Bondra's HHOF induction, but people saying that he was only about offense are under-selling him a little. During his prime he was a regular on the Caps penalty kill. They would not play him there, if he sucked defensively. For what it is worth, he is 14th all-time in career short-handed goals.

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01-24-2013, 11:59 PM
  #134
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I'd just like to say how much I enjoy this thread. This is what the HOH should be about not just the usual comparing big names (Messier vs Yzerman, Leetch vs Niedermayer, Esposito vs whomever etc). I like hearing more about the less mentioned stars like Bondra.

The real interesting question would be how he compares to similar scorers during his era who aren't in the HOF. Namely Tony Amonte and John Leclair plus other players like Mogilny. I'd say quite a few of those guys who've been eligible for 1+ season are ahead of him. Theo Fleury and Kariya being the big two imo, and Lindros.

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01-25-2013, 04:02 AM
  #135
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also Michal Pivonka was a good player, not great of course but good enough, both Bure and Selänne would have said thank you very much playing with Pivonka, you know Bure scored 60 goals in a season playing on a line with the great center Murray Craven? and won back to back Maurice Richard's with Viktor Kozlov as his set up man?
I don't deny Bure was scorer on his own, but again - he scored comparable amount of points during his second prime in DPE like Bondra. There was no 100 point season with Kozlov or Niedermayer, barely 90. Unlike Selanne, he had no Kariya on his wing who scores 40+ with or without Selanne and was probably the TOP3 player on the world at the moment.
To who should Bondra pass his passes? To the great Keith Jones? Or magnificent scorers Adam Oates and Richard Zednik? Or very well known snipers Konowalchuk and Halpern? He was scorer on that team and Caps relied on him to score. He was not there to make play etc. Good amount of his goals came on power play or penalty kill - special situations: pass it to Bondra. Yeah, his longevity was not the same as Selanne's with arguably three prime stretches or Bure with two. He hit his prime which lasted for good 7 years during which he was comparable to them and not just comparable but maybe even the better (well, probably not better than Bure but not by much). EDIT: in goals scoring

So at the end of the days, Bondra will be probably the only player with two scoring titles who is not in HOF.


Last edited by begbeee: 01-25-2013 at 04:08 AM.
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01-25-2013, 04:23 AM
  #136
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I don't deny Bure was scorer on his own, but again - he scored comparable amount of points during his second prime in DPE like Bondra. There was no 100 point season with Kozlov or Niedermayer, barely 90. Unlike Selanne, he had no Kariya on his wing who scores 40+ with or without Selanne and was probably the TOP3 player on the world at the moment.
To who should Bondra pass his passes? To the great Keith Jones? Or magnificent scorers Adam Oates and Richard Zednik? Or very well known snipers Konowalchuk and Halpern? He was scorer on that team and Caps relied on him to score. He was not there to make play etc. Good amount of his goals came on power play or penalty kill - special situations: pass it to Bondra. Yeah, his longevity was not the same as Selanne's with arguably three prime stretches or Bure with two. He hit his prime which lasted for good 7 years during which he was comparable to them and not just comparable but maybe even the better (well, probably not better than Bure but not by much). EDIT: in goals scoring

So at the end of the days, Bondra will be probably the only player with two scoring titles who is not in HOF.
You are on track here with Bondra's scoring ability. He was indeed a very capable scorer.

His GPG sinishes are:

1st, 2nd, 2nd, 6th, 8th, 9th which is pretty darn impressive.

For comparison's sake here is Selanne and Bure in GPG finishes.

Selanne: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 8th
I would venture and say that is more impressive than Bondra's

Bure: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th
I would also place this resume a bit better than Bondra's.

Now, one must remember that Bure and Selanne are not great ONLY due to the goal-scoring but the fact that they were elite offensively not just scoring goals. Albeit that was their biggest weapon. Both also had more aspects to their game than Bondra.
Bondra is close in terms of pure goal scoring, just a tad behind Selanne and Bure. Factor in the difference in overall offensive ability and you see how remarkably better players those two were compared to Bondra.

I really can't see any case for Peter in the Hall of Fame. Too one dimensional, albeit he did the one thing pretty darn good. But as you said, Bondra will probably be the only player with two goal scoring titles and won't make it to the hall, he is also the worst player with two goal scoring titles.

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01-25-2013, 10:40 AM
  #137
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Bure barely hit 90 points during prime why he is not bashed and Bondra is with his 80. Give Selanne Kristich, Pivonka or Nikolishin (Bondra's centers) instead of Kariya and he wouldn't crack 100 too.
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I don't deny Bure was scorer on his own, but again - he scored comparable amount of points during his second prime in DPE like Bondra. There was no 100 point season with Kozlov or Niedermayer, barely 90. Unlike Selanne, he had no Kariya on his wing who scores 40+ with or without Selanne and was probably the TOP3 player on the world at the moment.
you have to round down to say bure barely hit 90 points. you have to round up to say bondra is an 80 point scorer in the DPE.

best DPE seasons:

'98: 90 points, 3rd in the league
'00: 94 points, 2nd in the league
'01: 92 points, 7th in the league

'96: 77 points, 25th in the league
'97: 78 points, 11th in the league
'01: 81 points, 18th in the league

i don't think it's comparable.


now without kariya, this is DPE selanne:

86 points, 8th in the league (i'll leave it to the selanne fans to put an asterisk on that number and qualify if however they wish)

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01-25-2013, 10:44 AM
  #138
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i will say this about bondra though: he was so good at goal scoring that if you gave him even a half-decent playoff resume (say, mats sundin's playoff resume), i'd consider him as a borderline candidate.

but as it stands, i'd consider palffy before bondra.

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01-25-2013, 11:18 AM
  #139
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I don't deny Bure was scorer on his own, but again - he scored comparable amount of points during his second prime in DPE like Bondra. There was no 100 point season with Kozlov or Niedermayer, barely 90.
in 99–00 Bure scored 94 points in 74 games with Kozlov, that's about 104 points in 82 games, that's not "barely 90 points"

Bure and Selänne were players who competed for the Art Ross and were top 3 for the Hart Trophy, Peter Bondra was a great goal scorer in his own right but he wasn't close to Bure and Selänne, except for only as a goal scorer, but then a motivated Mogilny was too and more to that

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01-25-2013, 02:20 PM
  #140
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but as it stands, i'd consider palffy before bondra.
Uhm, I don't want turn it down to Palffy vs. Bondra (altough it would be interesting) but this is Bondra. Palffy had questionable motivation and was just very very good (like Demitra), Bondra was exceptional in some department. His career was better than Palffy's one - scoring titles, SC final..

I would be very very excited if history section will run All time list TOP 10-15-20 of slovak players like is running Swedish or Finnish poll now.

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01-25-2013, 02:37 PM
  #141
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Uhm, I don't want turn it down to Palffy vs. Bondra (altough it would be interesting) but this is Bondra. Palffy had questionable motivation and was just very very good (like Demitra), Bondra was exceptional in some department. His career was better than Palffy's one - scoring titles, SC final..

I would be very very excited if history section will run All time list TOP 10-15-20 of slovak players like is running Swedish or Finnish poll now.
I don't see why Jagorim wouldn't make poll's about Slovak players too. It would be interesting yes.

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01-25-2013, 03:43 PM
  #142
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Uhm, I don't want turn it down to Palffy vs. Bondra (altough it would be interesting) but this is Bondra. Palffy had questionable motivation and was just very very good (like Demitra), Bondra was exceptional in some department. His career was better than Palffy's one - scoring titles, SC final..

I would be very very excited if history section will run All time list TOP 10-15-20 of slovak players like is running Swedish or Finnish poll now.
Palffy was much better than Bondra at creating offense for his NHL teams. Bondra has better longevity though.

I value peak/prime most of all, so I would definitely induct Palffy over Bondra.

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01-25-2013, 04:57 PM
  #143
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Bondra has better longevity though.
If so, then only because Pálffy decided to quit the NHL at a younger age than Bondra. Remember, he was still a PPG player by the time he left Pittsburgh (aged 33). The last season Bondra was a PPG player was 2001-02 - when he was aged 33/34. After that, his numbers dropped. So the only difference is that Bondra choose to hang around longer. I don't think that's a significant advantage for him.

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01-25-2013, 05:30 PM
  #144
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Well let's look at this under a microscope. I think even the biggest Bondra supporters can agree that the guy was a one trick pony who brought nothing more than scoring goals. He didn't even get assists if you want to know the extent of it.

Beliveau was a playmaker before a goal scorer. He also played in a low scoring era his entire career. So this will lead to his lower GPG than Bondra. Modano and Sundin were centers and goal scoring was secondary to them. They both also brought more to the table than Bondra. Modano has the playoff record and the defensive prescence and Sundin aged well and was a model of consistency his whole career. Not to mention, while we're at it, he scored more goals than Bondra overall. The other two are Iginla and Shanahan and do we even need to bring up how much more valuable they were than Bondra?

I don't see a case for him at all. Yes he played in much of the dead puck era but he also played in the early to mid 1990s and racked up his share of goals there too. Also had some strange "off" years in the middle of his career that stick out like a sore thumb. I've said it before, if you are a one trick pony you'd better ensure you do it as good as anyone else in the game, and Bondra didnt. Bure at least had more elite seasons coupled with a better playoff portfolio and a lovely run in 1994.

One other thing about Bondra, he is very much below a point per game in his career.
I would tend to agree here.

One thing I like to do is see how nay player stacked up to all of his competion through out his entire career. I was generous and took out Bondras 1st and last partial seasons.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

He was 5th is goals which should put him in the mix for HHOF consideration but then we can also see that he was 24th in points.

His playoff and international career don't add much to his resume either.

Hall of very good but HHOF for me.

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01-25-2013, 05:45 PM
  #145
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I don't see why Jagorim wouldn't make poll's about Slovak players too. It would be interesting yes.
I was planning on waiting a year after the Swedes before I did the Finns polls but a similar topic came up so it seemed like the right time.

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01-25-2013, 11:39 PM
  #146
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palffy over bondra... easily.

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01-26-2013, 01:20 AM
  #147
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international career don't add much to his resume either.
By that logic, no Slovak player's international career adds anything to their resumes - as Bondra is pretty much Slovak Henderson.

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palffy over bondra... easily.
Accomplishment-wise? Close but Palffy. Skill-wise? Palffy. But if I were to start a team, the vast difference in attitude and intelligence level might just swing the choice to Bondra.

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01-26-2013, 01:42 AM
  #148
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By that logic, no Slovak player's international career adds anything to their resumes - as Bondra is pretty much Slovak Henderson.
Well maybe it does'nt, but slovak players cant blame poor teammates for not putting up the points internationally. That they hav'nt won much can be blamed on poor depth though. Lets take Jari Kurri who is a player that put up very poor numbers in the Canada Cups and the World Cup he played in. There we have a guy that maybe had too poor teammates to produce against such top-notch opponents, and certainly can blame his teams depth for not going deep in those tourneys.

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01-26-2013, 01:50 AM
  #149
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I was planning on waiting a year after the Swedes before I did the Finns polls but a similar topic came up so it seemed like the right time.
All right. I thought your pace was fast since you put the finnish poll up right after the Swedish.

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01-26-2013, 11:17 AM
  #150
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By that logic, no Slovak player's international career adds anything to their resumes - as Bondra is pretty much Slovak Henderson.
And Henderson has no business being in the Hall either. By international play I'm also including his time in the Czech league for team play or the totality of his non NHL time in which he doesn't add enough to his resume to by a HHOF player IMO.


Quote:
Accomplishment-wise? Close but Palffy. Skill-wise? Palffy. But if I were to start a team, the vast difference in attitude and intelligence level might just swing the choice to Bondra.

So even though you think that Plaffy accomplished more and was more skilled you would want Bondra on your team?

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