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01-25-2013, 07:08 PM
  #601
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Why he did it is irrelevant. There was no valid excuse to dump Koivu and move valuable assets for one of the worst contracts in the league. While this is pure conjecture, I have long believed Gainey panicked following the horrendous centennial season and blew up the core in order to save his job. His early departure in December, when the new era managed to perform worse, only adds credence to the theory.
potato, poTAto....

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01-25-2013, 07:08 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
I don't understand.

PK hasn't really proven anything at this point. I want my top offensive defenceman getting more than 40 pts per year. Subban hasn't shown that he can do that.

There's also been questions about chemistry with others on the team and he's had some disagreements with the coaches in the past.

There are still some holes in his game and some improvements to be made on his end. He's young and that makes sense. Perfectly normal.

I don't want to be paying Subban $5.5-6m a year for 6 years as the player he is now. Can he be worth that money? Yes and in my opinion, he probably would be over 6 years.
But he can also stop progressing, and he could even regress. It's happened to great players (especially ones that rely on their physical ability to stand out - see Mike Green who's had 56, 73, and 76 point seasons and who has pretty much fallen off the earth since).

Last thing you want is to be stuck with an overpaid contract for that long. The 2-yr bridge is so that they can get a better sense of how Subban will play for the next two years. If he shows he's one of the top d-men in the league, give him $6.5m long term. If he stalls, we can re-sign him to another more realistic contract.

It's a perfectly logical line of thought to want to give him another 2 years before signing him to a big long-term contract. I can see the benefit of a long-term contract as well, especially if that's what PK really wants, but you guys are the morons if you can't understand why MB could want to stick to his guns at 2 years, especially when PK is a RFA and has no real leverage.
that's absurd...

Subban, were he a UFA this year, would EASILY get over 5M$ on the open market.

Garrison (who has fewer points in a 3 year career, at 27 years old, not too mention is significantly worse all-around than Subban at 23) signed a 6 year deal just under 5M$, Dennis Wideman a 5.25M$ cap hit on a 5 year deal... as a one-dimensional offensive dman.

to say your worried about Subban progressing enough to be "worth" 5.5-6M$ in 4-5 years from now is just silly.

the only reason there is any discussion of Subban getting a deal under 6M$ a year is based on his age/RFA status. His level of play AS IT IS RIGHT NOW, in the current NHL environment (even with the cap roll back), is easily in the 5.5-6M$ range.

Subban knows it... that's why he's not even considering the Habs (rumored) low ball offer.
MB either doubts it, or has some other hidden agenda we don't know about.

either way, the bottom line is that this situation sucks for us fans

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01-25-2013, 07:09 PM
  #603
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Which clearly indicates that the Habs management is brain dead.
yeah okay, i'm done talking to you for today....

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01-25-2013, 07:09 PM
  #604
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Great sensationalism work, Stubbs.

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01-25-2013, 07:09 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
Well looking at his point totals, at this rate of progression, he'd be scoring 26 points in 5 years.

I want Subban signed as much as anybody. I'm sure if Subban agreed to $4m/yr over 6 years, MB would sign.

The issue is Subban thinks he's worth a certain amount over 6 years and MB doesn't believe he's shown that he's worth that much yet.
That's the point of a bridge contract, to allow the player to get rid of any doubts management might have about their worth.

I want Subban signed and I'd love to him signed right now, but those attacking MB based on absolutely no information don't seem to understand how this works. There are two sides to negotiations.

If we got confirmation that MB was offering $2.5m for 2 years, then yes I'd be upset. but a $4m/yr offer for 2 years would be more than reasonable of an offer to make (I'd personally go as high as $4.5 even).

But if Subban is refusing solely based on the fact that it's not long term, he's as much to blame as management.
Points are often circumstancial...they do not necessarily dictate progression. As a player, since the day he was drafted, Subban's progression has been near astronomical.

From a player who was all offense, didn't have clue how to play in his own end and was extremely raw.

Today, he's a player who plays vs top opposition and at his age, does it better than 80-85% of his peers regardless of age, he also contributes offensively, moving the puck, physical play, enthusiam, dedication, etc.

People who think Subban hasnt improved the last two years need to look at more than just goals + assists

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01-25-2013, 07:10 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
Well looking at his point totals, at this rate of progression, he'd be scoring 26 points in 5 years.

I want Subban signed as much as anybody. I'm sure if Subban agreed to $4m/yr over 6 years, MB would sign.

The issue is Subban thinks he's worth a certain amount over 6 years and MB doesn't believe he's shown that he's worth that much yet.
That's the point of a bridge contract, to allow the player to get rid of any doubts management might have about their worth.

I want Subban signed and I'd love to him signed right now, but those attacking MB based on absolutely no information don't seem to understand how this works. There are two sides to negotiations.

If we got confirmation that MB was offering $2.5m for 2 years, then yes I'd be upset. but a $4m/yr offer for 2 years would be more than reasonable of an offer to make (I'd personally go as high as $4.5 even).

But if Subban is refusing solely based on the fact that it's not long term, he's as much to blame as management.
Dude, you DO realize the #1 duty of PK Subban isn't being an offensive defenseman, but a DEFENSIVE one? He is one of our best shutdown guy. His offensive production is merely a bonus.

Flyers certainly don't need him to be a purely offensive forward. Their defense is in disarray.

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01-25-2013, 07:11 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Also, if PK signs a bridge deal...at his current rate of progression, after a difficult negotiation, he's going to cost more than 6.5M per season on his next deal.


I love you 417, but he's got a looooooong way to go to get Doughty money... You're pretty much implying that he will be up for the Norris in these next 2-3 seasons. I'll believe it when I see it..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
Wow at all the hate towards MB, I mean they're still discussing the contract and PK is likely not going anywhere and people throw all kinds of shots to MB for not signing him all the top $ he wants.

I don't know if people want a team that will win long-term with a balanced budget or if they just want to see PK make tons of money.
People are idiots.

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01-25-2013, 07:11 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Dude, you DO realize the #1 duty of PK Subban isn't being an offensive defenseman, but a DEFENSIVE one? He is one of our best shutdown guy. His offensive production is merely a bonus.

Flyers certainly don't need him to be a purely offensive forward. Their defense is in disarray.
So let's pay the defensive defenseman 6 millions a year..... yeah right....

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01-25-2013, 07:13 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Dude, you DO realize the #1 duty of PK Subban isn't being an offensive defenseman, but a DEFENSIVE one? He is one of our best shutdown guy. His offensive production is merely a bonus.

Flyers certainly don't need him to be a purely offensive forward. Their defense is in disarray.
If that was the case, I don't want to be paying $5-6m/year for a defensive defenceman.

Subban is an offensive defenceman first and that's what is going to make him his money. The fact that he's also not a liability defensively is what's a bonus.

IMO, Subban needs to prove his offensive game at this point. That is what makes him special.

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01-25-2013, 07:14 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post


I love you 417, but he's got a looooooong way to go to get Doughty money... You're pretty much implying that he will be up for the Norris in these next 2-3 seasons. I'll believe it when I see it..


Firstly...i'm uncomfortable

Secondly...again, if the Habs manage to get Subban signed to a 2 year bridge contract at below value, it means that next negotiation, they're going to have to 'compensate' for the tremendous value they've had him at ove the course of what will be his 5 year career at that point

He won't have to put up a Norris season to get paid then...you can print that

Again...TODAY, Subban's value on the open market is AT THE VERY LEAST 4.5M, and i'm being extremely conservative here.

2 years from now, based on Subban's development curve...6.5M is not going to get it done

that's the cold truth...and its why I find it so perplexing that MB is dead set on signing him to a 2 year deal, it seems extremely short sighted.

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01-25-2013, 07:15 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
He would be a moron because he is allowing his dated philosophies to put him at a competitive disadvantage with every other team in the league. By all reports, Subban's demands are not outrageous. He simply wants term instead of a nonsense bridging contract to "prove himself" when he already has.
Don't be ridiculous. Dated philosophies

The bridge contract is a valid tool and can be used to place management in a position to extend the contract long term if all works out well or trade the asset if it doesn't.

What reports exactly are you referring to? So far I have yet to hear an exact figure or length of term BUT it is your opinion that Subban's demands are not outrageous.

To correct you: Subban has proved nothing. Green had amazing productive years and what's he done lately? How can you say that Subban has "proven himself" and criticize management with NO information? No dollar amount, no term and a completely ridiculous stance on a very valid and advantageous strategy in a bridge contract.

In fact you call it archaic and not modern. Handing out rich contracts based on 2 good...not great years is what led this league to 2 lockouts in 8 years. That's modern history for you.

In your modern approach to running a team the GM bows down and has a 2 year (possible) core asset tell him what he is worth and how long he wants to get paid. He also sits quietly while the RFA with zero leverage tells him what value he has and who he is comparable to. Your new age GM would meekly nod his head and cut the check.

Then when it's time to sign a UFA I'd like to see that GM do anything other than beg the UFA to sign for whatever he wants.

To prove the point that MB is right in what he is doing just listen to McGuire state that he'd have signed Subban already. One is an NHL GM and other is still a whiny little wannabe. Which do you think is McGuire?

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01-25-2013, 07:16 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
If that was the case, I don't want to be paying $5-6m/year for a defensive defenceman.

Subban is an offensive defenceman first and that's what is going to make him his money. The fact that he's also not a liability defensively is what's a bonus.

IMO, Subban needs to prove his offensive game at this point. That is what makes him special.
What makes Subban special is his two way game. He's not Josh Gorges but he's not a player you judge based on his point total either. What makes Subban so good is his ability to produce while playing very difficult defensive minutes. Subban will probably never put up Karlsson numbers...but you know what, neither do Chara or Weber.

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01-25-2013, 07:16 PM
  #613
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Firstly...i'm uncomfortable

Secondly...again, if the Habs manage to get Subban signed to a 2 year bridge contract at below value, it means that next negotiation, they're going to have to 'compensate' for the tremendous value they've had him at ove the course of what will be his 5 year career at that point

He won't have to put up a Norris season to get paid then...you can print that
This.

Thing is, not signing Subban to a long term deal right now while he is still cheap is really stupid. He will only cost more later. Right now, I bet you could get him for 4.75M 6 years.

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01-25-2013, 07:16 PM
  #614
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People are idiots.
And you are saint? Nobody know what's going on with the contract talk, do not make any assumption.

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01-25-2013, 07:17 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Firstly...i'm uncomfortable

Secondly...again, if the Habs manage to get Subban signed to a 2 year bridge contract at below value, it means that next negotiation, they're going to have to 'compensate' for the tremendous value they've had him at ove the course of what will be his 5 year career at that point

He won't have to put up a Norris season to get paid then...you can print that

Again...TODAY, Subban's value on the open market is AT THE VERY LEAST 4.5M, and i'm being extremely conservative here.

2 years from now, based on Subban's development curve...6.5M is not going to get it done

that's the cold truth...and its why I find it so perplexing that MB is dead set on signing him to a 2 year deal, it seems extremely short sighted.
If he does end up getting a big raise, it'll be because he'll have earned it.

Yes, the Habs can give him long-term now for slightly less, but it'll be a gamble and they could easily lose that gamble and be stuck with a long-term contract they don't need.

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01-25-2013, 07:17 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
If that was the case, I don't want to be paying $5-6m/year for a defensive defenceman.

Subban is an offensive defenceman first and that's what is going to make him his money. The fact that he's also not a liability defensively is what's a bonus.

IMO, Subban needs to prove his offensive game at this point. That is what makes him special.
I'd classify Subban as a two way defensman...he gets the offensive defensman label because of how he plays. But his defense at this point in his career, is more advanced than his offense.

Which is why I think it's foolish to think he won't continue to improve

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01-25-2013, 07:18 PM
  #617
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Scott Stevens in the latter part of his career became a defence first and worth all the money Rod Languey same thing

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01-25-2013, 07:19 PM
  #618
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I don't want to see PK go, but If he and the habs cannot agree on a deal, than Id try and see what it would take to get Ovi out of Washington. His stock has fallen over the last couple of years. Mike Green isn't the same. They need offense on D. Washington would love PK's personality. Ovi's said he would love to play in MTL one day. I know you guys are going to rip into me. Go.

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01-25-2013, 07:19 PM
  #619
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The way i see it, Subban is worth 1M to 1.5M less than Karlsson. Use his deal as a base line and you get

3.5
4
5
5.5
5.5
5.5
6

7yrs/$35M...5M cap hit.

Lock him up long term otherwise you are going to see his cap hit close to 7M his next contract.

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01-25-2013, 07:20 PM
  #620
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Scott Stevens in the latter part of his career became a defence first and worth all the money Rod Languey same thing
Or a less extreme case, Drew Doughty has hardly scored more points than Subban in the past two years...because he focused on his defensive game. And the Kings had no problem paying him after putting up "only" 40 points.

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01-25-2013, 07:20 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Points are often circumstancial...they do not necessarily dictate progression. As a player, since the day he was drafted, Subban's progression has been near astronomical.

From a player who was all offense, didn't have clue how to play in his own end and was extremely raw.

Today, he's a player who plays vs top opposition and at his age, does it better than 80-85% of his peers regardless of age, he also contributes offensively, moving the puck, physical play, enthusiam, dedication, etc.

People who think Subban hasnt improved the last two years need to look at more than just goals + assists
Enthusiasm? lol ok.. I'd much rather him not be so enthusiastic if it'd allow him to make the right read. Dedication? Well where is he? And how is he more dedicated than any other player we have?

PK has definitely progressed since he joined the NHL, but to be honest, I thought he'd be better. I know you guys have some website that tells you he's the 2nd best dman in the league and all sorts of other arguments, but none of that crap can cover up his lack of hockey IQ. I do think he will get better, because that's the kind of character he has, but who's to say he doesn't get paid and not care as much? He's really got a lot to learn to be considered elite. There are lots of guys around the league that have shown more already and are younger to boot.

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01-25-2013, 07:24 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
If he does end up getting a big raise, it'll be because he'll have earned it.

Yes, the Habs can give him long-term now for slightly less, but it'll be a gamble and they could easily lose that gamble and be stuck with a long-term contract they don't need.
Maybe...but I tend to think, and I might be wrong granted, that the bigger gamble is trying to cover you *** by offering him a 2 year deal because he might of plateaud as a player.

I happen to think the Habs are the one's playing with fire here...you're trying to 'nickel & dime' what I think is one of the cornerstone's of your franchise.

You might win that gamble...or it could blow up in your face

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01-25-2013, 07:24 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Firstly...i'm uncomfortable

Secondly...again, if the Habs manage to get Subban signed to a 2 year bridge contract at below value, it means that next negotiation, they're going to have to 'compensate' for the tremendous value they've had him at ove the course of what will be his 5 year career at that point

He won't have to put up a Norris season to get paid then...you can print that

Again...TODAY, Subban's value on the open market is AT THE VERY LEAST 4.5M, and i'm being extremely conservative here.

2 years from now, based on Subban's development curve...6.5M is not going to get it done

that's the cold truth...and its why I find it so perplexing that MB is dead set on signing him to a 2 year deal, it seems extremely short sighted.
I would be happy with a 4.5 2-year deal even if it means paying PK 6-7 M long term after that. I hope his weekend reflexion comes to the same conclusion. I also hope MB is not balking at that number for a two year deal. PK has earned that.

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01-25-2013, 07:27 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
The way i see it, Subban is worth 1M to 1.5M less than Karlsson. Use his deal as a base line and you get

3.5
4
5
5.5
5.5
5.5
6

7yrs/$35M...5M cap hit.

Lock him up long term otherwise you are going to see his cap hit close to 7M his next contract.
May as well go the full 8 years.

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01-25-2013, 07:29 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I would be happy with a 4.5 2-year deal even if it means paying PK 6-7 M long term after that. I hope his weekend reflexion comes to the same conclusion. I also hope MB is not balking at that number for a two year deal. PK has earned that.
What would happened if PK signed a 2 year deal at 3 or 3.5M per year. Is it still PK is above the CH during the contact talk or is it MB who has low balling PK all the time?

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