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P.K. Subban Thread - 7.0 - Great with computers

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Old
01-25-2013, 08:50 PM
  #651
WeThreeKings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
At the worst, yes. At the best, he's quite the upgrade. Eller hasn't convinced me yet he can carry a line; we always seemed to rely heavily on wingmen...

Couturier might replace him in our Centre depth, and achieve much greater role long-term.
Who cares? Our center depth is quite fine with DD, Plekanec, Eller, and Galchenyuk.

For once our Center Depth isn't an issue. We need a stud D core. Beaulieu, Ellis and Tinordi aren't ready and only if you combine Ellis and Beaulieu do you get a chance at achieving a Subban type D man.

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01-25-2013, 08:51 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Definitely worth trading PK for.
who says anything about trading PK, he was comparing Couturier to Lars Eller....

if you don't follow, don't get involve please....

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01-25-2013, 08:52 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
Lars Eller, 23, 6'0, 198, best year 28 points in 79 games

Sean Couturier, 20, 6'4 190, first year in the NHL 27 points in 77 games....

OK......
Well, I'd take you seriously if you didn't make things up, because Eller is 6'2" and 209 lbs.

And yes, Couturier is better than Eller. But there is no guarantee of his offensive upside unless you assume every 6'4" player is automatically a star.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Who cares? Our center depth is quite fine with DD, Plekanec, Eller, and Galchenyuk.

For once our Center Depth isn't an issue. We need a stud D core. Beaulieu, Ellis and Tinordi aren't ready and only if you combine Ellis and Beaulieu do you get a chance at achieving a Subban type D man.
And that's the point, I don't know why this is so hard.

Couturier is an upgrade. However, Couturier is less of an upgrade than the downgrade losing Subban costs us. Center depth, especially two way play, is a position of strength in this organization. We are missing high end offensive depth there, but Couturier does not fit that description.

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01-25-2013, 08:52 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
Don't be ridiculous. Dated philosophies

The bridge contract is a valid tool and can be used to place management in a position to extend the contract long term if all works out well or trade the asset if it doesn't.

What reports exactly are you referring to? So far I have yet to hear an exact figure or length of term BUT it is your opinion that Subban's demands are not outrageous.

To correct you: Subban has proved nothing. Green had amazing productive years and what's he done lately? How can you say that Subban has "proven himself" and criticize management with NO information? No dollar amount, no term and a completely ridiculous stance on a very valid and advantageous strategy in a bridge contract.

In fact you call it archaic and not modern. Handing out rich contracts based on 2 good...not great years is what led this league to 2 lockouts in 8 years. That's modern history for you.

In your modern approach to running a team the GM bows down and has a 2 year (possible) core asset tell him what he is worth and how long he wants to get paid. He also sits quietly while the RFA with zero leverage tells him what value he has and who he is comparable to. Your new age GM would meekly nod his head and cut the check.

Then when it's time to sign a UFA I'd like to see that GM do anything other than beg the UFA to sign for whatever he wants.

To prove the point that MB is right in what he is doing just listen to McGuire state that he'd have signed Subban already. One is an NHL GM and other is still a whiny little wannabe. Which do you think is McGuire?
Were it a valid tool, why is Montreal the only team making use of it for their star players? Look at the recent contracts offered to similar or inferior caliber players. They all received lengthily deals, yet Subban has to "prove himself"?

Every analyst is speculating his demands are within the five million parameter, with four to six years attached. Those were well within the norm for similar players. I will grant you no definitive numbers have been cited but nothing suggests Subban's demands are unreasonable unless you believe he should sign a bridging contract.

I suggest you read this article and then attempt to argue PK "hasn't proven anything."

Do you accuse every GM of being meek and passive? Dallas, Buffalo, Vancouver, Washington, Pittsburgh, San Jose, Edmonton, Philadelphia. The list continues. They have all locked up star players to term length contracts. No one is necessarily implying Subban ought to be cut a blank check and told to fill it in. Montreal is not negotiating, they are strong arming - it may cost them one of their best player.

McGuire cited the Chelios trade for the disaster it was. Were he the GM, Subban may have played the last three years.

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Old
01-25-2013, 08:53 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by EveryDay View Post
If PK is trade on the Eastern Conference, the teams i can agree with are the NYI-WIN and FLO.

If its NYI Hamonic + Okposo/1st/Nino/Reinhart
If its WIN Bogosian/Kane + ?
If its FLO Huberdeau + Gudbranson

In the West its ANA

ANA for Ryan
There's not one deal here that a GM would accept.

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01-25-2013, 08:53 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
what is this notion that you need to win a trophy to get paid? What did trophy did Carey Price win to get paid like he's a top 5 goalie?

Price got paid for his worth to this organization...if PK signs a 2 year deal at below value, and continues to progress as he has and continues to be used 25+ mins a game in all situations like they've used him

what do you think his worth to the organzation will be 2 years from now? especially in HIS eyes after he just went through a difficult negotiation where he might feel he got the short end of the stick?
Certainly you don't need a trophy to get paid, and certainly, value of a player fluctuates from team to team. However, Doughty and Karlsson got paid like they did because they showed the proof in the pudding. So did price, btw. That 2010-2011 season was a good-ass season. If Subban throws down a 50+ point season, there will simply be no arguing with him.

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01-25-2013, 08:54 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm not going to answer this...because I find it extremely insulting for many different reasons
lol at you every rap song on 89.9 as that line in songs call them and complain, dont be a sissy, bet you talk about shopping and your tan with your buddies i guess, good for you, your an awesome human being.

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01-25-2013, 08:54 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post





Quote:
Hey, I like him too, but just because he takes wild windups and trash talks doesn't make him a better player. Markov is the polar opposite and is simply better at everything. My point is "enthusiasm" is irrelevant, effectiveness is what I care about.
I'm as big a fan of Markov as anyone here, they're different player...Markov is better at some things, while Subban is better at others. Imagine having both at full strength on this team for more than 10 games?

Also, I agree enthusiasm is largely irrelevant, but it's just a bonus IMO...and if effectiveness is what you care about. Few players were as effective as Subban defensively last year. He does need to learn that 'less is often more' when he's working the PP, but that comes with time...I much rather have to reign a player in, then to have to continually push and coddle him to bring his 'A' game every night.

Subban may make young mistakes at time, but it's never out of lack of effort or indifference...everytime Subban takes the ice, I get the feeling he's doing EVERYTHING he can to get the win. I LOVE this about him, it's what makes him connect with fans so deeply.

Quote:
I'm not questioning his dedication, but you are implying that he is more dedicated than others. I asked you to quantify that. Just because he grew up in Rexdale, don't mean a thing. His parents were obviously always there for him and were a very positive influence. Not taking anything away from him, but other players are dedicated too you know.
I made a point to say that i'm not saying he's more dedicated than others...but I tend to think that because of his background, I don't think he'll ever take anything for granted because to make it to where he is today, it took a great deal of intestinal fortitude, and discipline and self-belief. I could elaborate alot more on this, but we'd be straying from the main topic...

Quote:
Just because other teams have made mistakes we should do the same
Of course not...but I could easily say the opposite too...this isn't about other players, it's about what you think PK is worth to this organization TODAY and going forward and if you're willing to make that committment to him. Some people are more hesitant than others, I don't happen to agree with that...but to each his own

Time will tell

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01-25-2013, 08:54 PM
  #659
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Do you think Edmonton would be willing to give up one of their young "stars" for Subann and Eller and maybe a pick (not 1st) ?

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Old
01-25-2013, 08:55 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Well, I'd take you seriously if you didn't make things up, because Eller is 6'2" and 209 lbs.

And yes, Couturier is better than Eller. But there is no guarantee of his offensive upside unless you assume every 6'4" player is automatically a star.
Sorry, took my stats on Hockey DB

Yahoo and Habs sites has him at 6'2 198

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01-25-2013, 08:55 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
There's not one deal here that a GM would accept.
What do you mean? You think that NYI wouldn't trade Hamonic + Nino for Subban?

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Old
01-25-2013, 08:56 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Even if he's born in USA and raised in New0Brunswick...;

Both his parents are born in Quebec

He played all his 3 junior years in Drummondville

He speaks French exactly like any other French speaking kids in Quebec.

Officially he is not A Quebecer, but

It's like Galchenyuk. Both are from Belarus but he is born in USA and can speak Russian with the best of them.
Does that make Rafael Diaz a Quebecer? I think the point is Couturier is from New Brunswick, not Quebec, he's a Francophone, but Francophone doesn't mean "local talent". Just like Giroux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
Sorry, took my stats on Hockey DB

Yahoo and Habs sites has him at 6'2 198
Yeah, hockey DBs numbers are outdated.

Anyway the point being, if you had to trade Subban, Couturier is a nice return. But it's not a good trade just to make a statement.

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01-25-2013, 08:57 PM
  #663
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Few interesting stats about Subban. Because many of you are found of them.

Last season, PK, for a defenseman...

was 80th in blocked shots
was 73rd in hits
was 3rd WORST in give aways
was 56th in take aways
was 1st in penalties
was 47th in +/-
was 28th in points
was 36th in goals
was 24th in assists

So logically he should be paid as a top-10 d-man in this league...



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01-25-2013, 08:59 PM
  #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Few interesting stats about Subban. Because many of you are found of them.

Last season, PK, for a defenseman...

was 80th in blocked shots
was 73rd in hits
was 3rd WORST in give aways
was 56th in take aways
was 1st in penalties
was 47th in +/-
was 28th in points
was 36th in goals
was 24th in assists

So logically he should be paid as a top-10 d-man in this league...


Try and read some of the rigorous statistical analyses rather than cherrypicking various stats.

Here:
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...real-canadiens

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01-25-2013, 08:59 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
Do you think Edmonton would be willing to give up one of their young "stars" for Subann and Eller and maybe a pick (not 1st) ?
No. They signed up to those players and are invested in them. Maybe if they hadn't lucked out getting Schultz lined up like they did. But getting Schultz means they're not desperate for the D guy.

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01-25-2013, 09:00 PM
  #666
Et le But
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
What does this have to do with PK Subban?
What has happened to this thread exactly? I don't think the mods are going to be too happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
So what ? He is a "locally" produced talent. Like Bouillon is American but raised in Quebec.
Couturier wasn't raised in Quebec, he was raised in New Brunswick. He's a Franco-Brunswickian, or whatever it's called. In fact Hockey Quebec rejected him, so he's not a locally produced talent by any means. I consider Boullion a locally produced talent, both him and Couturier grew up in Canada...but only one in Quebec.

He's a French-Canadian sure, but he's not Quebecois except by ancestry.

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01-25-2013, 09:01 PM
  #667
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What has happened to this thread exactly? I don't think the mods are going to be too happy.
Good call.

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Old
01-25-2013, 09:02 PM
  #668
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The only trade I would do for PK although it would be expensive

John Carlson + 2nd round pick

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01-25-2013, 09:03 PM
  #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Few interesting stats about Subban. Because many of you are found of them.

Last season, PK, for a defenseman...

was 80th in blocked shots
was 73rd in hits
was 3rd WORST in give aways
was 56th in take aways
was 1st in penalties
was 47th in +/-
was 28th in points
was 36th in goals
was 24th in assists

So logically he should be paid as a top-10 d-man in this league...


He was 28th in points produced, take that one. He was a relative + on his team and his advanced stats are the real ones to look at for his defense... they argue that he is far above 28th on defense, that his defense is better than his offense (which most of us agree with on qualitative observation). 24 NHL defensemen make $5M or more. Soooo... suppose you put him 25th. Doesn't need to be 10th. 25th is worth $5M.

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01-25-2013, 09:04 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
The only trade I would do for PK although it would be expensive would be

John Carlson + 2nd round pick
FYI John Carlson has a 6-year contract right after his ELC, Bergevin won't touch that.

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01-25-2013, 09:05 PM
  #671
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Good call.
Can't believe you missed all the entertainment today, milord. Must be happy to see all the well-behaved kids having clean, healthy fun

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01-25-2013, 09:06 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
FYI John Carlson has a 6-year contract right after his ELC, Bergevin won't touch that.
It's a six year contract @ 4M$ per.

Not as exciting a player as PK but I bet he's better defensively than Subban.

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01-25-2013, 09:06 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
He was 28th in points produced, take that one. He was a relative + on his team and his advanced stats are the real ones to look at for his defense... they argue that he is far above 28th on defense, that his defense is better than his offense (which most of us agree with on qualitative observation). 24 NHL defensemen make $5M or more. Soooo... suppose you put him 25th. Doesn't need to be 10th. 25th is worth $5M.
The dumbest one is "1st in penalties", what a dumb stat.

An objective observer would, at a minimum take the difference between penalties assigned and penalties drawn at ES, then divide by total ice time at ES, and then remove all dmen who have played less than ~500 minutes or so.

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01-25-2013, 09:06 PM
  #674
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Originally Posted by Bloumeister View Post
Can't believe you missed all the entertainment today, milord. Must be happy to see all the well-behaved kids having clean, healthy fun
Oh, you.


Keep this on topic. Arguing over the language a player speaks hardly has a place on this board, let alone this thread.

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01-25-2013, 09:08 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Couturier wasn't raised in Quebec, he was raised in New Brunswick. He's a Franco-Brunswickian, or whatever it's called. In fact Hockey Quebec rejected him, so he's not a locally produced talent by any means. I consider Boullion a locally produced talent, both him and Couturier grew up in Canada...but only one in Quebec.

He's a French-Canadian sure, but he's not Quebecois except by ancestry.
And this important because.....???

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