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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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Old
01-24-2013, 10:15 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
That is just Canadian NHL drivel! What do you mean that Tretiak "tried to get permission" to play for the Montreal Canadiens? What efforts can you demonstrate that he made? Tretiak retired from hockey after the 1984 Olympics, so what "efforts" did he make in 1985 to join the Canadiens? You are just accepting in blind faith that the Canadian media outlets that you pay attention to are feeding you the right propaganda. How could someone who retired from the sport, with a host of official delegation appointments and duties to bask in, want to launch a new career with the Canadiens?
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=339235

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01-24-2013, 10:29 PM
  #227
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That is pure Canadian/NHL/western drivel that was put in his mouth! He never said any of that!!!111 He is a true patriot and a Leafs fan!!!

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01-24-2013, 10:38 PM
  #228
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Take it easy, pal.

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01-24-2013, 10:44 PM
  #229
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Take it easy, pal.
He was being sarcastic.

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01-24-2013, 10:50 PM
  #230
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He was being sarcastic.
I thought the ones after the numerous exclamation marks and the "Leafs fan" would have tipped people off but I guess people don't get sarcasm without a smilie these days...

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01-24-2013, 10:55 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
I thought the ones after the numerous exclamation marks and the "Leafs fan" would have tipped people off but I guess people don't get sarcasm without a smilie these days...
Sorry I was not sure is it sarcasm or madness

May be your new avatar scare me so much.

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01-25-2013, 02:57 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
That is just Canadian NHL drivel! What do you mean that Tretiak "tried to get permission" to play for the Montreal Canadiens? What efforts can you demonstrate that he made? Tretiak retired from hockey after the 1984 Olympics, so what "efforts" did he make in 1985 to join the Canadiens? You are just accepting in blind faith that the Canadian media outlets that you pay attention to are feeding you the right propaganda. How could someone who retired from the sport, with a host of official delegation appointments and duties to bask in, want to launch a new career with the Canadiens?
When Gretzky paid a visit to Tretiak in Summer 1982 he asked him which team he would choose if he had the chance to play in the NHL. Tretiak picked the Montreal Canadiens and told Gretzky that all Red Army players are big fans of them.

In December that year Tretiak was in North America with CSKA. In Montreal they asked him if it was true he would like for the Montreal Canadiens. Tretiak: "Anybody would like to play for the best... If the Soviet Ice Hockey Federation and the NHL could work something out, I would like to try it."

Canadiens GM Serge Savard reacted by selecting Tretiak in the 1983 NHL Entry Draft. The idea was that Tretiak would retire from "amateur" hockey after the 1984 Olympics and join the NHL. Savard travelled to Moscow to negotiate with the Soviets, but nothing came out of it. Tretiak has repeatedly confirmed that he wanted to go, but the authorities wouldn't let him.

Tretiak in an interview for iihf.com: "In 1984, I had at least five to seven good years left in me. I was still very fit and in excellent shape. Canadiens' GM Serge Savard tried to negotiate my release, but it was useless. They wouldn’t let me go. I did everything possible for my country. I played every tournament and in fifteen years I missed one practice when the coach told me to go home because I was so sick. I was a hundred percent disciplined. I never smoked or drank but when I asked them in 1984 to let me join Montreal who had drafted me, they said no, and the reason was that I was a soldier in the Red Army."

Tretiak in an interview with Sports Illustrated: "In 1984 after my fourth Olympic games I wanted to go to the Montreal Canadiens, because they drafted me. I wanted a change. Maybe I would've played another five or six years if I could've switched my way... I would've liked to go to Montreal but my government said no. They said I was a big star for Russia and couldn't go to North America. It was a bad decision. So I retired at 32 years old... I'm mad about it because I would've liked to have played in the NHL. It's different. I would've liked to win the Stanley Cup. Serge Savard, the general manager of Montreal Canadiens, visited Russia four times and the Russian Hockey Federation said that I couldn't go. I don't know why. The big government people said that my father was a big general and didn't want me to go to North America to play. Nobody asked me if I would like to go. My father wasn't a general, my father was a major. I know there was a Tretiak who was a general, but it was only the same name, it wasn't close to me. It was a joke. The Russian government said that my father was a big general, but it was not true. They said he was a very proud father and didn't like me to move. Nobody even asked me if I would like to go to Canada or not. I would've liked to go, but it wasn't possible a long time ago."

Now of course you can dismiss it all as "propaganda" - but only if your'e brainwashed by Soviet propaganda yourself. I hope you're not and you rather just weren't aware of the evidence and of Tretiak's comments.

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01-25-2013, 05:42 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Robocops you say? Please tell me more !
tell you more? go watch some 70's and 80's NHL, even early 90's.

look at your highlights now - Malkin, Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Varlamov yada-yada-yada. A few generations of your players grew up learning from European hockey, the smarts, the agility, the skating, the stickhandling and your retribution is - (whatever it is 200k?) for Selanne, Malkin, Ovechkins of the world? pfff

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01-25-2013, 05:49 AM
  #234
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If it is only the CHL that is the problem, then where are all the young players who opted to stay in Russia to continue their development? From what I see of the KHL, the only player worth talking about (excluding Tarasenko) who opted to stay in Russia is Kuznetsov. Evgeni Dadavov is having a decent year statistically in the KHL, he finished his developmental years in Russia, I think he was 20 when he first went to NA to give the NHL a try, was ultimately unsuccessful, had a decent first year in the AHL and based on that, continued for a few years longer than he should have.

Why is it you seem to think every player who straps on a pair of blades in Chelyabinsk, Smolensk or Murmansk is destined to be the next Bure, Federov or we can only dream, the next great Valeri Kharlamov. BTW Eagerly awaiting the soon to be released film in Russian theaters on Kharlamov. I think it is called "Legend" Looks to be a great film.

some players who showed promise at age 15 will not make it..

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01-25-2013, 06:13 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
If it is only the CHL that is the problem, then where are all the young players who opted to stay in Russia to continue their development? From what I see of the KHL, the only player worth talking about (excluding Tarasenko) who opted to stay in Russia is Kuznetsov. Evgeni Dadavov is having a decent year statistically in the KHL, he finished his developmental years in Russia, I think he was 20 when he first went to NA to give the NHL a try, was ultimately unsuccessful, had a decent first year in the AHL and based on that, continued for a few years longer than he should have.

Why is it you seem to think every player who straps on a pair of blades in Chelyabinsk, Smolensk or Murmansk is destined to be the next Bure, Federov or we can only dream, the next great Valeri Kharlamov. BTW Eagerly awaiting the soon to be released film in Russian theaters on Kharlamov. I think it is called "Legend" Looks to be a great film.

some players who showed promise at age 15 will not make it..
makes sense, but I disagree that Russian all-star juniors should be going to CHL. Once they grow over MHL and are still relevant, they can refine their skill at the VHL (look at Gusev, Naumenkov, Lyubimov, Monya), and at the age of 21-23 if they still want and still are good enough go to the NHL

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01-25-2013, 06:36 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
makes sense, but I disagree that Russian all-star juniors should be going to CHL. Once they grow over MHL and are still relevant, they can refine their skill at the VHL (look at Gusev, Naumenkov, Lyubimov, Monya), and at the age of 21-23 if they still want and still are good enough go to the NHL
Unfortunately that's not how a lot of young Russian players see it, if they believe there's a quicker route to the NHL other than MHL VHL 4 or 5 years in the KHL they are going to take quicker route. (not everybody is Tarasenko and Kuznetzov)

I understand the KHL wants the KHL to be the league of choice for young Russians and the NHL should only be an option when the player is mid 20s. The Emelin model.

But that's not the reality...

I think it is just overly simplistic to look at the CHL and say it's a waste of talent for young Russian players...because ultimately what ever a player becomes, if he achieves success or doesn't, it is in the end, the player's responsibility.



Oh and the name of the movie is "Legend № 17" Can't wait to relive the 72 series. Although I didn't live it the first time. A little before my time.

And since we are on the topic of the KHL... whatever happened to the KHL and their announcement before Christmas about Canadian broadcasters TSN televising KHL games? Still waiting for TSN to make the press release!


Last edited by Mr Writer: 01-25-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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01-25-2013, 08:05 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Unfortunately that's not how a lot of young Russian players see it, if they believe there's a quicker route to the NHL other than MHL VHL 4 or 5 years in the KHL they are going to take quicker route. (not everybody is Tarasenko and Kuznetzov)

I understand the KHL wants the KHL to be the league of choice for young Russians and the NHL should only be an option when the player is mid 20s. The Emelin model.

But that's not the reality...

I think it is just overly simplistic to look at the CHL and say it's a waste of talent for young Russian players...because ultimately what ever a player becomes, if he achieves success or doesn't, it is in the end, the player's responsibility.



Oh and the name of the movie is "Legend № 17" Can't wait to relive the 72 series. Although I didn't live it the first time. A little before my time.

And since we are on the topic of the KHL... whatever happened to the KHL and their announcement before Christmas about Canadian broadcasters TSN televising KHL games? Still waiting for TSN to make the press release!
reason why for that - look at my posts above

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01-25-2013, 08:07 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Unfortunately that's not how a lot of young Russian players see it, if they believe there's a quicker route to the NHL other than MHL VHL 4 or 5 years in the KHL they are going to take quicker route. (not everybody is Tarasenko and Kuznetzov)

I understand the KHL wants the KHL to be the league of choice for young Russians and the NHL should only be an option when the player is mid 20s. The Emelin model.

But that's not the reality...

I think it is just overly simplistic to look at the CHL and say it's a waste of talent for young Russian players...because ultimately what ever a player becomes, if he achieves success or doesn't, it is in the end, the player's responsibility.



Oh and the name of the movie is "Legend № 17" Can't wait to relive the 72 series. Although I didn't live it the first time. A little before my time.

And since we are on the topic of the KHL... whatever happened to the KHL and their announcement before Christmas about Canadian broadcasters TSN televising KHL games? Still waiting for TSN to make the press release!
that's not my argument, but a small part of it. Major argument - let the players develop home not in CHL, USHL, AHL...if their development stumbles in local environment, or they are better fit for smaller rink hockey (as we know some players are and some are completely the other way around) and you got a NA team calling - then why not.

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01-25-2013, 08:36 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
that's not my argument, but a small part of it. Major argument - let the players develop home not in CHL, USHL, AHL...if their development stumbles in local environment, or they are better fit for smaller rink hockey (as we know some players are and some are completely the other way around) and you got a NA team calling - then why not.
THIS and we have evidence that it works (KHL releasing players who are under contract). Lets look at Kytsin, he was under contract with Novokuznetsk, but no problem to play CHL. Kucherov now. The same would happen with Grigs, Yakupov, Tolchintsky, Serebryakov and other guys.

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01-25-2013, 10:19 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
When Gretzky paid a visit to Tretiak in Summer 1982 he asked him which team he would choose if he had the chance to play in the NHL. Tretiak picked the Montreal Canadiens and told Gretzky that all Red Army players are big fans of them.

In December that year Tretiak was in North America with CSKA. In Montreal they asked him if it was true he would like for the Montreal Canadiens. Tretiak: "Anybody would like to play for the best... If the Soviet Ice Hockey Federation and the NHL could work something out, I would like to try it."

Canadiens GM Serge Savard reacted by selecting Tretiak in the 1983 NHL Entry Draft. The idea was that Tretiak would retire from "amateur" hockey after the 1984 Olympics and join the NHL. Savard travelled to Moscow to negotiate with the Soviets, but nothing came out of it. Tretiak has repeatedly confirmed that he wanted to go, but the authorities wouldn't let him.

Tretiak in an interview for iihf.com: "In 1984, I had at least five to seven good years left in me. I was still very fit and in excellent shape. Canadiens' GM Serge Savard tried to negotiate my release, but it was useless. They wouldn’t let me go. I did everything possible for my country. I played every tournament and in fifteen years I missed one practice when the coach told me to go home because I was so sick. I was a hundred percent disciplined. I never smoked or drank but when I asked them in 1984 to let me join Montreal who had drafted me, they said no, and the reason was that I was a soldier in the Red Army."

Tretiak in an interview with Sports Illustrated: "In 1984 after my fourth Olympic games I wanted to go to the Montreal Canadiens, because they drafted me. I wanted a change. Maybe I would've played another five or six years if I could've switched my way... I would've liked to go to Montreal but my government said no. They said I was a big star for Russia and couldn't go to North America. It was a bad decision. So I retired at 32 years old... I'm mad about it because I would've liked to have played in the NHL. It's different. I would've liked to win the Stanley Cup. Serge Savard, the general manager of Montreal Canadiens, visited Russia four times and the Russian Hockey Federation said that I couldn't go. I don't know why. The big government people said that my father was a big general and didn't want me to go to North America to play. Nobody asked me if I would like to go. My father wasn't a general, my father was a major. I know there was a Tretiak who was a general, but it was only the same name, it wasn't close to me. It was a joke. The Russian government said that my father was a big general, but it was not true. They said he was a very proud father and didn't like me to move. Nobody even asked me if I would like to go to Canada or not. I would've liked to go, but it wasn't possible a long time ago."

Now of course you can dismiss it all as "propaganda" - but only if your'e brainwashed by Soviet propaganda yourself. I hope you're not and you rather just weren't aware of the evidence and of Tretiak's comments.
After he retired, Tretiak became the de facto ambassador for Soviet hockey. That was a cushy job even in the Soviet system. Any musings that he may have made about "it would have been fun to play for the Montreal Canadians" would be just pure politicking for a Canadian audience. Soviet players made about $500 a month in those days, so he probably would have liked the money, but he was nearing his 33rd birthday, and despite his talent, he would have been a fish out of water flying to 3 different cities a week to play hockey. I just consider it pure bs on his part, which the Canadian media lapped up.

I'm not an advocate for the Soviet system, but there is irony that in the early days of shipping Soviet players to the NHL, the transfer fee to the Soviet federation that the NHL was willing to pay was 50% of the player's salary. That is a much more fair transfer fee than what the NHL pays now. Like it or not, Tretiak is Tretiak because of the investment that the Soviet hockey system made in him. All those hours "imprisoned in barracks," as some accounts have said, made him the great player that he is. The Soviets reasoned that since they developed the players value from scratch, why shouldn't they get a reasonable share of the real market value.

I am certainly not arguing in support of the repressive policies of the Soviet government to prevent citizens from emigrating out of the country. However, it is also well established that no citizens had a better opportunity to defect to the West than star athletes who constantly travelled abroad (reference Mogilny and Fedorov). Tretiak had ample opportunities to defect to the West, but I am surmising that his cushy and secure position in Soviet sport made it unnecessary for him to do it. By 1985, repressive retaliation was less common than in the '40's or '50's for defectors. His wife and family commonly traveled to Canada with him, so they could have defected as a group. My opinion is that he concluded that he had too much to lose personally to prompt his defection.


Last edited by Yakushev72: 01-25-2013 at 10:42 AM. Reason: addition
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01-25-2013, 05:23 PM
  #241
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tell you more? go watch some 70's and 80's NHL, even early 90's.

look at your highlights now - Malkin, Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Varlamov yada-yada-yada. A few generations of your players grew up learning from European hockey, the smarts, the agility, the skating, the stickhandling and your retribution is - (whatever it is 200k?) for Selanne, Malkin, Ovechkins of the world? pfff
So what? Everyone can take something from another player regardless of nationality. You don't have to come off saying basically "our players are better than yours ". Lol there are players of many different nationalities in highlights I don't see your point there I'm not going to argue that the Russians that are in the NHL are good but what point does it make calling our players robocops and insulting them. Were Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr bad players? I'm sorry but you reaaaaally come off as arrogant in your post..

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01-25-2013, 06:35 PM
  #242
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Still waiting for Yakushev72's list.

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01-25-2013, 07:36 PM
  #243
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It's old and ever boring story Jussi. Join the KHL and get powerhouse team and your best players in Europe.

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01-25-2013, 07:46 PM
  #244
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It's old and ever boring story Jussi. Join the KHL and get powerhouse team and your best players in Europe.
Sure, who's gonna fund that team? And the last Worlds proved that we need to get more players into the NHL instead of the KHL, our KHL players sucked ass and were completely useless against NHL players. Besides, Yakushev72 started talking about it, I'm just expecting him to back up his propaganda with substance.

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01-25-2013, 08:07 PM
  #245
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Sure, who's gonna fund that team? And the last Worlds proved that we need to get more players into the NHL instead of the KHL, our KHL players sucked ass and were completely useless against NHL players. Besides, Yakushev72 started talking about it, I'm just expecting him to back up his propaganda with substance.
Don't you mean, this is exactly the reason, why to have your best KHL players under control in your own team. Build up some chemistry and so on.

That's it, why it's sooo boring. Somebody has KHL substances, others NHL substances. It's a neverending story. ******** propaganda. I've heard, that there is better league than NHL in universe (sorry no specific). Try to get your players there. You will be dominating.

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01-25-2013, 08:51 PM
  #246
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So what? Everyone can take something from another player regardless of nationality. You don't have to come off saying basically "our players are better than yours ". Lol there are players of many different nationalities in highlights I don't see your point there I'm not going to argue that the Russians that are in the NHL are good but what point does it make calling our players robocops and insulting them. Were Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr bad players? I'm sorry but you reaaaaally come off as arrogant in your post..
never said that, you are twisting my words now. But our player bring millions and NHL refuses to pay adequately for them that's it. Moreover, a great PR-job, is sucking all the blood out of our (as well as the other European nations) junior hockey into CHL, where many regress, because they left the homeland as а semi-finished product.

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01-25-2013, 09:06 PM
  #247
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never said that, you are twisting my words now. But our player bring millions and NHL refuses to pay adequately for them that's it. Moreover, a great PR-job, is sucking all the blood out of our (as well as the other European nations) junior hockey into CHL, where many regress, because they left the homeland as а semi-finished product.
First of all I have no idea what you meant when you said Canadians usually are robocops but if being this bunch "robocops " as you call it can make us rank amongst the top hockey nations then we'll gladly be happy producing these machines.
The CHL migration may be seen as negative by some but it is the choice of the player and their agent who wants to come over to increase the likelihood of getting drafted, the CHL is not to blame at all it is not their problem.

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01-25-2013, 09:44 PM
  #248
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First of all I have no idea what you meant when you said Canadians usually are robocops but if being this bunch "robocops " as you call it can make us rank amongst the top hockey nations then we'll gladly be happy producing these machines.
The CHL migration may be seen as negative by some but it is the choice of the player and their agent who wants to come over to increase the likelihood of getting drafted, the CHL is not to blame at all it is not their problem.
Of course, it is not problem of CHL. Nothing against them. I'm sure, You understand, how somebody in Europe can be happy about MHL as alternative choice for some players...

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01-25-2013, 09:47 PM
  #249
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the CHL is not to blame at all it is not their problem.
Who said it is their problem?

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01-25-2013, 09:51 PM
  #250
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Who said it is their problem?
Nobody, but seriously some people need to stop talking about these issues so much and starting with some crap anti North American views because the young players want to come over and play in NA.

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