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Defensive issues/Fix the defense thread

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Old
01-25-2013, 10:13 PM
  #51
cheesedanish87
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
It's not the D that caused a problem tonight. They just get put in bad spot after bad spot in unexpected and botched transitions. That's either the forwards failing at puck management or Claude Noel countering everything the Penguins coaching staff is telling the players to do on the whiteboard.
They gave up 3 goals tonight and it could of easily been 5 or 6 TV played good. The forwards didnt play good but to blame all the great chances they gave up on our forwards tonight isent right.


Anybody else notice how much Winnipeg totally shut down the big bad pens in the 3rd period. Pens only had 1 shot with a few mins to go. When was the last time the pens did that to another team?

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01-25-2013, 10:14 PM
  #52
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I'm on the passenger theory. Too many passengers and lazy boneheads can drag even the greatest stars and their teams down.
There is truth in this. Even Kunitz looked like a passenger tonight. A person really could argue we're not one winger short but 2 or 3. Maybe we should think about moving both Kunitz and Kennedy (and a D asset and possibly picks) as a package(s) to get 2 skilled wingers in their late 20s or a little older to make a run at it.

Give Bennett his shot once the trade(s) is(are) made.

Clowe (sign) - Sid - Bennett
Gagne (rental) - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis (great 3rd line)

... maybe we're too tunnel-visioned when it comes to Kunitz and Dupers because Sid scored 50 with them once. Might've been a once in a career type situation.

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01-25-2013, 10:19 PM
  #53
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The 3rd period was weird though because of the ridiculously long stretch without a whistle or tv timeout. I think the Pens were gassed by the end.

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01-25-2013, 10:22 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by cheesedanish87 View Post
They gave up 3 goals tonight and it could of easily been 5 or 6 TV played good. The forwards didnt play good but to blame all the great chances they gave up on our forwards tonight isent right.


Anybody else notice how much Winnipeg totally shut down the big bad pens in the 3rd period. Pens only had 1 shot with a few mins to go. When was the last time the pens did that to another team?
All the outmanned situations the D look bad in come from bad transitions and turnovers in unexpected spots.

It's easy to look at the 3 seconds before the goal and say to yourself, well Orpik/martin/letang shoulda had that guy's stick, but if you back the play up another ten, almost without exception the guy in question didn't because he was scrambling to catch up after someone else's giveaway.

This has been a recurring problem for a long time now, no matter who's been on the blueline.

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01-25-2013, 10:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
The 3rd period was weird though because of the ridiculously long stretch without a whistle or tv timeout. I think the Pens were gassed by the end.
They needed to show up in the second period, which enough of them didn't, so trying to play catch-up in the third wouldn't have been necessary.

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01-25-2013, 10:58 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
There is truth in this. Even Kunitz looked like a passenger tonight. A person really could argue we're not one winger short but 2 or 3. Maybe we should think about moving both Kunitz and Kennedy (and a D asset and possibly picks) as a package(s) to get 2 skilled wingers in their late 20s or a little older to make a run at it.

Give Bennett his shot once the trade(s) is(are) made.

Clowe (sign) - Sid - Bennett
Gagne (rental) - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis (great 3rd line)

... maybe we're too tunnel-visioned when it comes to Kunitz and Dupers because Sid scored 50 with them once. Might've been a once in a career type situation.
The same Gagne who got benched in LA?

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Old
01-25-2013, 11:23 PM
  #57
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Just a heads up for when someone asks -- I changed the thread title just so the discussion remains fairly constructive. Lessens the chance of people just coming in here now and reacting purely to the title rather than the actual premise of the thread.

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01-25-2013, 11:30 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Fitzgerald's the name I was looking for. He was *coaching the D, but was he using Savard's playbook? My recollection is he was.

Edit: *should say "in charge of team defense"
Honestly can't say, but it's apparent since that time the defensive quality has plummeted

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01-25-2013, 11:41 PM
  #59
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It wasn't hard for the Jets to counter the Pens tonight. I was at the game. I noticed a total committment especially in the third to plug up the neutral zone. There was very little forechecking. Basically one guy was right in the middle, and the other four made a nice box just inside the corners of the neutral zone. That's what caused the Wheeler empty net goal. It seemed every time the Pens were trying a stretch pass almost right to the blue line. Even if it worked the puck carrier was shadowed into the zone, and the other Jets would shadow your players. The Pens needed to try something new, like dump and chase (Pavelec is *very* bad at handling the puck) or drop it down and across rather than trying to force the play.

Bylsma used these stretch passes to destroy the Jets last year. Way too many odd man rushes, too much run and gun. The Jets cannot compete with any talented team doing that. Tonight that game plan fell apart.

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01-26-2013, 02:43 AM
  #60
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we are missing J Staal bad.

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01-26-2013, 07:05 PM
  #61
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Alright, admittedly, I was a little irritated last night. And heavy with booze.

That said, after re-watching some clips of the game and enjoying Hockey Night, I believe I have some simple solutions to solve our issues.

- In terms of personnel, waive Lovejoy, and trade Despres for a better defensive prospect. Despres is not intelligent or hard-working enough to crack a top-4 on a contending, barring a major adjustment in mentality. Lovejoy speaks for himself. I'd rather have an AHL journeyman than this guy.

- In terms of system, switch to zone defense. Man-to-man works for some teams. For this team, it will not work. The only time where the players on the ice are cohesive as a unit is on the penalty kill. And we know how spectacular our penalty kill is. Have the defensemen work as a pair and limit opportunities from dangerous areas.

- In terms of breakouts, bring the forwards back to our half of the ice! I honestly believe (with perhaps the exception of Sutter) that our forward corps is the laziest group of backcheckers in the league. We almost never leave our zone as a unit. Stop the stretch passes when they are ill-advised. The center should be inside our blueline, and one winger should be right outside to assist as well. The only time I see the forwards assist in backchecking is after problems arise. Standing at the opposing blue-line waiting for a miracle outlet pass is not intelligent hockey.


Simple as 1-2-3.

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:08 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by 21pro View Post
we are missing J Staal bad.
Sutter's been very good defensively.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:19 PM
  #63
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Behindthenet finally posted 2013 stats on their site.

To break it down with respect to defenders:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

Martin/Orpik have been fantastic in goals against. They play against the toughest competition and only start 35% of their shifts in the O zone. This has been lights out play to say the least. I did not realize how well these 2 have played after watching every game.

After that, pretty much crap among the remaining defenders. They are all very close, but 3 games aren't enough to accurately separate them in a Goal Against / 60min. Needless to say, they could all improve....starting with Letang. He should be "leading" this defensive corp.

To say Lovejoy has been "a train wreck" is completely ignoring the other equal train wrecks in Engelland and Depres. There isn't much separating them so far with respect to D play. Please tone down the Lovejoy hate. He's not the scapegoat. Which brings us to......

Forwards

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

This is very troubling issue again. Malkin, #1 (and his linemates) have been absolutely terrible defensively. He has to improve immediately for the Pens to get better. If not, this will be a long year. 5 goals against while he has been on the ice. Some of this is probably frustration with his 3rd linemate, and the rest is on his shoulders. We all agree that he has to be more careful with the puck and his assignments.

4th line is still being brought down by poor defensive play by Adams/Vitale/Glass, zero offensive production from them, AND Byslma being caught with them out on the ice against top lines. Opposing teams are eating their lunch off our 4th line by matching their 1st/2nd lines against them. Byslma really has to start hiding them from top opposition. These tough D minutes need to go to Crosby / Sutter lines. This 4th line needs to start more shifts in the offensive zone against weaker competition. There is no reason these guys can't have positive +-s. That should be the goal instead of filling this line with "role players". Get this line producing at 5v5 and it will have "role players" on it.

Adams is still the smoking gun here IMO to hate on. He always sticks out as our worst +- player / minute (historically, and currently). I still plea for him to be replaced by DJ who is at least a "0" influence on the team instead of a negative.


GOOD

DJ, Dupuis and Cooke have been rocks as usual. I wish there were more names I could put in this section.

GREAT
Sutter has been every bit as good defensively as Jordan Staal has been..0 (5v5) goals against while he's been on the ice. He only starts 30% of his shifts in the O zone (compared to Malkin's 72%). To even suggest the team is poor defensively due to Sutter's inability to replace Staal is not accurate. He's on the bench during the other team's goal celebrations.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:00 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Grey View Post
Alright, admittedly, I was a little irritated last night. And heavy with booze.

That said, after re-watching some clips of the game and enjoying Hockey Night, I believe I have some simple solutions to solve our issues.

- In terms of personnel, waive Lovejoy, and trade Despres for a better defensive prospect. Despres is not intelligent or hard-working enough to crack a top-4 on a contending, barring a major adjustment in mentality. Lovejoy speaks for himself. I'd rather have an AHL journeyman than this guy.

- In terms of system, switch to zone defense. Man-to-man works for some teams. For this team, it will not work. The only time where the players on the ice are cohesive as a unit is on the penalty kill. And we know how spectacular our penalty kill is. Have the defensemen work as a pair and limit opportunities from dangerous areas.

- In terms of breakouts, bring the forwards back to our half of the ice! I honestly believe (with perhaps the exception of Sutter) that our forward corps is the laziest group of backcheckers in the league. We almost never leave our zone as a unit. Stop the stretch passes when they are ill-advised. The center should be inside our blueline, and one winger should be right outside to assist as well. The only time I see the forwards assist in backchecking is after problems arise. Standing at the opposing blue-line waiting for a miracle outlet pass is not intelligent hockey.


Simple as 1-2-3.
They have been playing zone defense since 2010.

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01-27-2013, 12:32 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
There is truth in this. Even Kunitz looked like a passenger tonight. A person really could argue we're not one winger short but 2 or 3. Maybe we should think about moving both Kunitz and Kennedy (and a D asset and possibly picks) as a package(s) to get 2 skilled wingers in their late 20s or a little older to make a run at it.

Give Bennett his shot once the trade(s) is(are) made.

Clowe (sign) - Sid - Bennett
Gagne (rental) - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis (great 3rd line)

... maybe we're too tunnel-visioned when it comes to Kunitz and Dupers because Sid scored 50 with them once. Might've been a once in a career type situation.
Actually, Sid's only 50 goal season came when Billy Guerin was still riding shotgun on his line. Kunitz, I believe, played around 50 games that year, with Dupuis filling in when Kunitz was out.

The myth behind Kunitz and Dupuis "clicking" with Sid was more due to Sid's God-mode performance in his concussion-shortened season, when he was on pace for 60 goals (32 in 41 games) with those two on his wing.

We've yet to see how that line will actually do over a full 82 game schedule, especially late on in the season when teams tighten up defensively.

-----

As for improving the defense, if they could somehow just stop being ****ing retarded and stop turning the puck over in the most basic of situations, the defense already would improve by half. Then cut out that stupid stretch pass that works about 10% of the time, the other 90% resulting in turnovers, and we'd know for certain what this roster is actually capable of.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:43 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Ominous Grey View Post
- In terms of personnel, waive Lovejoy, and trade Despres for a better defensive prospect. Despres is not intelligent or hard-working enough to crack a top-4 on a contending, barring a major adjustment in mentality. Lovejoy speaks for himself. I'd rather have an AHL journeyman than this guy.
Despres is young and still learning. Smarts come with experience and mistakes are perfectly normal for a young player like him. The work ethic is pure speculation.

I don't think Lovejoy should be playing over Despres or Bortuzzo or even be on the team over Strait but he's not as bad as people are making him out to be. How bad he is has been greatly exaggerated. He's a whipping boy so people look for every little mistake he makes so they can bash him some more. He was far from the only guy to make mistakes last game.

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Old
01-27-2013, 01:12 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Behindthenet finally posted 2013 stats on their site.
You deserve a slap in the face if you want to assign meaning to advanced stats after 4 games .

As for the Malkin comment, now that you highlight him and call his and his defense absolutely terrible, what goal against has he been to blame on except his give away against Toronto. Enlighten me, please.

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01-27-2013, 01:37 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
You deserve a slap in the face if you want to assign meaning to advanced stats after 4 games .

As for the Malkin comment, now that you highlight him and call his and his defense absolutely terrible, what goal against has he been to blame on except his give away against Toronto. Enlighten me, please.
I don't remember if they led to goals or not, but in the last two games Malkin's line has fled the zone as soon as a defenseman gained puck control, and with no support from the forwards, there have been quite a few turnovers.

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01-27-2013, 01:54 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
You deserve a slap in the face if you want to assign meaning to advanced stats after 4 games .

As for the Malkin comment, now that you highlight him and call his and his defense absolutely terrible, what goal against has he been to blame on except his give away against Toronto. Enlighten me, please.
Where would you like me to magically get these extra games to use in any analysis for this season? Slap yourself in the face.

Opposing teams are scoring 5.5 goals against / 60min of icetime while Malkin is on the ice. If we take Malkin's 13.5min of 5v5 ice time / game, he is on the ice for 1.2 5v5 goals / game It is tough to win games when you are basically spotting the other team a goal (sometimes 2) every game with your "top" player. Don't forget the pens still have the goals against from other lines too. In a thread about "fix the defense", I am just stating that he (or his line) is the big gaping cannon ball wound causing all the blood loss.

Crosby's line is giving up .67 5v5 goals against / game (and his line hasn't been doing very well either).

Dupuis / Cooke have goals against of < 1.5 GA/60min in comparison. They are giving up .25 goals against / game.

If you still want to sit on the high horse and claim Malkin is fault less with respect to his defensive responsibilities, then fine. How are Dupuis, Cooke, and Sutter able to get such great stats in goals against playing in front of the same defense and same goaltender as Malkin's line does? Why is Malkin's line giving up goals at 2x the rate of Crosby's?, or 5x the rate of Sutter's?


Last edited by wgknestrick: 01-27-2013 at 02:02 AM.
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Old
01-27-2013, 02:52 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Where would you like me to magically get these extra games to use in any analysis for this season? Slap yourself in the face.
You can't and thus the exercise is meaningless. That is the point.
I am one of those people who DO ascribe value, within context, to advanced stats. I think over the course of a significant amount of games, they can be genuinely useful and revealing.
But at this point they mean NOTHING.

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01-27-2013, 04:26 AM
  #71
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You can't and thus the exercise is meaningless. That is the point.
I am one of those people who DO ascribe value, within context, to advanced stats. I think over the course of a significant amount of games, they can be genuinely useful and revealing.
But at this point they mean NOTHING.
Self admitted advanced stat nerd agreeing with TR. If you're going to use any advanced stats this early stick with Corsi. Malkin leads the entire team there, so I'm not worried about him. In the meantime, stay away from GF / GA numbers. They won't mean anything without a significant sample, and even the entire shortended season won't be enough to draw any significant conclusions. It's far too luck based.

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01-27-2013, 04:57 AM
  #72
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I think a huge problem is that the defense is way to active. Not only do they move up ice to support the play way to much but they're also over active in supporting their partner in the defensive zone. How many times have we seen two defensemen in one corner, behind the net or the same side of the ice? Then if the puck gets turned over or doesn't go exactly to plan, the defense has to scramble back into place.

Also I don't mind the stretch pass but know when its not working and the team you're playing against. Have a plan B and stop forcing it.

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01-27-2013, 07:17 AM
  #73
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I can solve the problems in one sitting.

Don't play Lovejoy.

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01-27-2013, 08:00 AM
  #74
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I can solve the problems in one sitting.

Don't play Lovejoy.
ya...it was two lovejoys that were bookends for a jet player as he was standing in front of our net with there thumbs well placed as he scored......oh! wait that wasn't lovejoy, lovejoy at least tried to stop his man even if it did look bad.

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01-27-2013, 09:36 AM
  #75
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Our defensive system sucks. It has sucked for a while and I can't stop screaming out to the television.

We NEED to hire a defensive guy. We NEED to abandon whatever hybrid zone/man-to-man system we are employing now. It is literally one of THE WORST defensive systems in the league.

The Penguins have the personell to at least be SOUND in our own zone. But time and time again, they force stupid plays.

I know it is only four games in. I get that. But this problem is only going to get worse. Ever since the '09 run, our defense has gotten progressively worse. We had a slight boost during the Michalek/Martin introduction, but these two seemingly solid additions became horrendous liabilities not long after joining our squad. Coincidence? Probably not.

I can't stand this "5-second rule" or whatever Bylsma cooked up. It forces defensemen to make STUPID decisions with the puck and not take their time looking for outlets. I understand that he wants to limit time in the defensive zone, but treating puck possession like a game of hot potato is no way to run a NHL club.

The latest testament to our stupidity in our own end is the throwaways of Strait and Michalek, and support of players like Lovejoy. It's obvious that this organization has a near obsessive compulsion to reward "puck-movers"...at the expense of everything else.

Changes HAVE to be made, because if the circus of a playoff series last year proved anything, it's that our defense needs an overhaul. Anything less is entirely unacceptable.


You are my new best friend. I've been saying this exact stuff for almost a year now. People just response with "It's Paul Martin's fault."

The stretch pass stretches out our players as much as it stretches theirs leaving a massive opportunity for the other team if they counter. Bylsma's answers everything with "Be more aggressive" We need to collapse around the net like Columbus did to us & the Rangers have done so well. On break outs we need our forwards in our own end helping the defense with outlet passes not up at the other teams blue line.

I have no problem with the aggressive fore check but they way we defend & come out of our zone needs to change drastically.

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