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01-25-2013, 11:11 PM
  #776
habtastic
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Not sure if posted already, but it seems like PK wants to get things going now (ready to compromise?) and Meehan knows that in Montreal, you can't drag things on like this:

J-F Chaumont @JFChaumont 24 Jan
#Habs: Don Meehan en entrevue au téléphone: « P.K. m’a demandé de trouver un terrain d’entente rapidement » - Meehan

(Meehan over the phone: "PK asked me to find some ground for discussions quickly.")

Seems like good news to me.

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01-25-2013, 11:11 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
In case people are confused,

The reason great defensemen have more value than great forwards is that the average dman plays ~20 minutes a game whereas the average forward plays ~15 minutes game.

In a game 7, your best dman might clock 30 minutes, but your best forward might clock 22-24 minutes.

I think that's the main reason. Thoughts?
You're point is not invalid, but it's incomplete. Top Ds are much rarer, therefore more valuable.

The position also is much more physical than a typical high end forward and IMO requires more strength and toughness.

I'm sure others could add on other qualities to further illustrate my point.


Last edited by groovejuice: 01-25-2013 at 11:16 PM.
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01-25-2013, 11:11 PM
  #778
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Alexdaman, please tell me you don't actually believe anything you've said in this entire thread?

It's all rubbish, right mate? Like trading Yakupov for Malkin is a risk for Edmonton, that's for giggles, correct?

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01-25-2013, 11:16 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I understand the logic. But if I could build my team around a player it would be Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin or Steven Stamkos. Yes, they don't play as much but it's impossible to find scoring numbers like that.

I'd rather have a super elite scorer and an average first pairing blueliner (who's still going to log that icetime) than the other way around. Unless we're talking Bobby Orr...
You gotta compare apples to apples though.

You just listed the 2nd, 1st, and 3rd best centers in the game. They are completely dominant over the other centers. They are all relatively young. They are also all light-years ahead of the 4th, 5th, and 6th best centers. The difference between Malkin and Giroux is as big as the difference between Giroux and Plekanec. That makes those 3 guys less replaceable.

Who are the best dmen right now? Zdeno Chara who is turning 36 this year, so you wouldn't want him over the other guys. Karlsson might be that good but nobody knows, because let's be honest we all wonder if last year was a fluke. There is a slew of young defenders such as McDonagh, Subban, Shattenkirk, Ekman-Larrson, Hedman, but nobody knows yet how they rank relative to each other, and as proven as they are they are still more risky than Malkin.

So let's instead compare oranges with oranges.

Who would you rather have on the Habs, Alex Pietrangelo or John Tavares?

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01-25-2013, 11:23 PM
  #780
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how the **** can the Habs trade this guy? they're not going to get equal value back/ beaulieu and Tinordi are NOT replacements. What is bergevin doing by sending a message? there needs to be a middle ground. you want a bridge contract? give him an extra year and pay him more. what do i feel there's something else at play? like bergevin hearing murmurs from the room that PK thinks he's bigger than the team - and this is his little GM play to try and bust him down to size.

i don't get it. the kid's a a potential generational talent. a marketing dream AND our best d prospect since chelios. what the **** are you doing bergevin? do you want to **** this up in your first months on the job?

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Old
01-25-2013, 11:24 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Alexdaman, please tell me you don't actually believe anything you've said in this entire thread?

It's all rubbish, right mate? Like trading Yakupov for Malkin is a risk for Edmonton, that's for giggles, correct?
I'm not saying it's a risk. Of course Malkin will be a much better player for the next 5 years... You have to realize tho that it's not a decision you take right away and say yes.

Let's say your guy from the scouting report has never or very rarely been wrong about a player and he says that in 1 year Yakupov will be posting 75-90pts a season... Do you deal him off for a guy that will score 100pts and maybe could be injury prone. You're also dealing a player by taking him away from his comfort zone to play in a new system, can Malkin post 100pts a season in EDM? Are you willing to pay 9M$ for that extra 10-25pts?

Maybe scouting says 40-50pts from Yakupov in 2014-15 than it's clear that Malkin will give you an exponential edge and you should say yes. And a bigger advantage to win the cup.


Last edited by Alexdaman: 01-25-2013 at 11:36 PM.
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01-25-2013, 11:27 PM
  #782
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1- Kris Letang, a proven NHL d-man and Stanley Cup Champion, is making 3,5 milion this year and next year. If he had not been injured last year, he would had finished behind Karlson in Ottawa for most points by a d-man. Is he a more proven d-man than PK right now ?

2- Habs ave only 6 millijn under the cap this year. They can't give a 5 million contract to PK yet. They need a bit of breathing room in case...

3- next year the cap will be 64, and the habs have already allocated 56 million for only 16 players, excluding PK and other RFA they might want to re-sign.

In two years, Habs will have lots of cap space to work with. That is when they will be able to give that fat long deal to PK. He MUST understand and accept that.

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01-25-2013, 11:33 PM
  #783
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Yakupov for Subban straight up would be a good move for Edmonton, small differences could be ironed out with draft picks and throw-ins, e.g. David Desharnais.

Edmonton already has excellent offense. They have Hall and RHN, both of whom will be better than Yakupov. They have Gagne, MPS, Smyth, Hemsky, for support, which isn't bad.

They also have the pieces of a good d-coprs with Petry-dish, Whitney, and Schultz. What they're missing is an anchor on D, and Subban is exactly what they need. He's a perfect fit for Edmonton.

If Edmonton trades Yakupov for Subban, they are an Antti Niemi away from winning the stanley cup.

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01-25-2013, 11:37 PM
  #784
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
No Yakupov has scored twice in 3 games thus far... he's 19 yrs old, Yakupov will most likely dominate the NHL as soon as next year. Price would not compensate for him alone Price + PK would but since Edm will want to build the team on Yakupov they won't agree to do it, so the only way you can convince them is if you add your 1st overall.

How can you say PK would square up for Yakupov. PK is not in the top 10 of D. Yakupov is the number one rookie in the league and the next Calder trophy winner.
holy **** this guy can see the future!!! i havesoo many questions for...

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01-25-2013, 11:41 PM
  #785
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post

Who would you rather have on the Habs, Alex Pietrangelo or John Tavares?
I can't speak for others but I'd definitely go with Pietrangelo on this one.

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01-25-2013, 11:43 PM
  #786
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Nick Kypreos‏ @RealKyper

Despite meeting in Toronto hearing no advancement in negotiations between #Canadiens and @PKSubban1

http://twitter.com/RealKyper/status/294935848745566208
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1UP View Post
http://www.rds.ca/canadien/chroniques/355318.html

English TLDR: PK to think about his future with his agent and family over the week-end.

The Habs and PK met today but did not agree to a deal.
Sounds like Subban has 4 options:
  1. Sign a short term contract as the Habs want him to do;
  2. Sit for the season and hope for the best next summer;
  3. Sign an offer sheet; or
  4. Request a trade.

Wanna bet that he'll chose the first one?

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Old
01-25-2013, 11:45 PM
  #787
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It I was Subban I'd probably sign the short term deal, and in two years go up to Marc Bergevin, give him the middle finger, and sign with a contender.

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01-25-2013, 11:46 PM
  #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
I'm not saying it's a risk. Of course Malkin will be a much better player for the next 5 years... You have to realize tho that it's not a decision you take right away and say yes.

Let's say your guy from the scouting report has never or very rarely been wrong about a player and he says that in 1 year Yakupov will be posting 75-90pts a season... Do you deal him off for a guy that will score 100pts and maybe could be injury prone. You're also dealing a player by taking him away from his comfort zone to play in a new system, can Malkin post 100pts a season in EDM? Are you willing to pay 9M$ for that extra 10-25pts?

Maybe scouting says 40-50pts from Yakupov in 2014-15 than it's clear that Malkin will give you an exponential edge and you should say yes. And a bigger advantage to win the cup.
Tarasenko>>>>Yakupov

And I would not trade Subban for Yakupov,

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01-25-2013, 11:47 PM
  #789
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
It I was Subban I'd probably sign the short term deal, and in two years go up to Marc Bergevin, give him the middle finger, and sign with a contender.
If I were Subban I'd sign a 1 year deal. Then go to arbitration and try to get the most possible until UFA then leave. No sense in staying somewhere where you are not valued to your worth have to basically hold the team at gunpoint to get what you deserve.

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01-25-2013, 11:47 PM
  #790
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I can't speak for others but I'd definitely go with Pietrangelo on this one.
Subban is worth a little less than Pietrangelo but it might work. I could certainly go for Tavares and try to work a deal for DD but sadly that deal would not benefit the habs. And I'd be utterly shocked that the Isles just go 1 for 1 on it.

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01-25-2013, 11:48 PM
  #791
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
It I was Subban I'd probably sign the short term deal, and in two years go up to Marc Bergevin, give him the middle finger, and sign with a contender.
He won't be a UFA in two years. So then Bergevin trades him to Columbus.

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01-25-2013, 11:50 PM
  #792
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
I'm not saying it's a risk. Of course Malkin will be a much better player for the next 5 years... You have to realize tho that it's not a decision you take right away and say yes.

Let's say your guy from the scouting report has never or very rarely been wrong about a player and he says that in 1 year Yakupov will be posting 75-90pts a season... Do you deal him off for a guy that will score 100pts and maybe could be injury prone. You're also dealing a player by taking him away from his comfort zone to play in a new system, can Malkin post 100pts a season in EDM? Are you willing to pay 9M$ for that extra 10-25pts?

Maybe scouting says 40-50pts from Yakupov in 2014-15 than it's clear that Malkin will give you an exponential edge and you should say yes. And a bigger advantage to win the cup.
A simple "yes" would have sufficed. You didn't need to actually go ahead and spew some more of it. I would have believed you.

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01-25-2013, 11:50 PM
  #793
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It I was Subban I'd probably sign the short term deal, and in two years go up to Marc Bergevin, give him the middle finger, and sign with a contender.
No because he will still be an rfa...

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01-25-2013, 11:53 PM
  #794
Et le But
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
Subban is worth a little less than Pietrangelo but it might work. I could certainly go for Tavares and try to work a deal for DD but sadly that deal would not benefit the habs. And I'd be utterly shocked that the Isles just go 1 for 1 on it.
Taveres is the Islanders, he's been nothing but professional and dedicated despite all their troubles, is signed to a very reasonable contract (even the cheap Islanders don't require their best players to "prove themselves" with a bridge contract), and was a PPG player last year with a mediocre supporting cast

Taveres is the real deal and is way too important for the Islanders to make a trade like that.

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01-25-2013, 11:55 PM
  #795
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Taveres is the Islanders, he's been nothing but professional and dedicated despite all their troubles, is signed to a very reasonable contract (even the cheap Islanders don't require their best players to "prove themselves" with a bridge contract), and was a PPG player last year with a mediocre supporting cast

Taveres is the real deal and is way too important for the Islanders to make a trade like that.
I brought up Pietrangelo vs Tavares to help people think about the relative value of forwards and dmen. I picked two players of comparable age, development, and aptitude imo.

I'm not suggesting either one could be acquired in a trade for Subban, lol.

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01-26-2013, 12:05 AM
  #796
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Not sure if posted already, but it seems like PK wants to get things going now (ready to compromise?) and Meehan knows that in Montreal, you can't drag things on like this:

J-F Chaumont @JFChaumont 24 Jan
#Habs: Don Meehan en entrevue au téléphone: « P.K. m’a demandé de trouver un terrain d’entente rapidement » - Meehan

(Meehan over the phone: "PK asked me to find some ground for discussions quickly.")

Seems like good news to me.
Funny I don't see his tweet.

Oh found it although it's 2 days old.



Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS

Expect PK Subban to meet with Don Meehan on Monday. That's the newest info on the matter.


Last edited by Alexdaman: 01-26-2013 at 12:15 AM.
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01-26-2013, 12:07 AM
  #797
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I brought up Pietrangelo vs Tavares to help people think about the relative value of forwards and dmen. I picked two players of comparable age, development, and aptitude imo.

I'm not suggesting either one could be acquired in a trade for Subban, lol.
Well this is a hard one for me because I believe in building from the back up, but I also believe an elite 1C stands above everything else. The problem of course being there's a difference between the best of the best 1Cs and merely very good 1Cs or potential (which is why I think trading Subban for Couturier is ridiculous).

People have different opinions of Taveres but for me he's the real deal, a very special player who thinks one step ahead of everyone around him while also working harder than anyone around him, even if he doesn't have the physical gifts others have. There's very few players I'd rather build my team around than Taveres.

I'd probably take Pietranglo over 90% of the leagues forwards, Taveres is one of the rare exceptions. I'd take Alex P over RNH, Duchene, or Huberdeau, but not Taveres.

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01-26-2013, 12:11 AM
  #798
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You gotta compare apples to apples though.

You just listed the 2nd, 1st, and 3rd best centers in the game. They are completely dominant over the other centers. They are all relatively young. They are also all light-years ahead of the 4th, 5th, and 6th best centers. The difference between Malkin and Giroux is as big as the difference between Giroux and Plekanec. That makes those 3 guys less replaceable.

Who are the best dmen right now? Zdeno Chara who is turning 36 this year, so you wouldn't want him over the other guys. Karlsson might be that good but nobody knows, because let's be honest we all wonder if last year was a fluke. There is a slew of young defenders such as McDonagh, Subban, Shattenkirk, Ekman-Larrson, Hedman, but nobody knows yet how they rank relative to each other, and as proven as they are they are still more risky than Malkin.

So let's instead compare oranges with oranges.
That was my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Who would you rather have on the Habs, Alex Pietrangelo or John Tavares?
I'd probably have to go with Tavares. I have more faith in him being an elite player. Pietrangelo looks great though and I don't think you can go wrong either way.

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01-26-2013, 12:11 AM
  #799
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After the Jamie Benn contract I hope Subban will accept 5M$ a year for 3 years. And I hope MB will offer that.

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01-26-2013, 12:12 AM
  #800
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Taveres is the Islanders, he's been nothing but professional and dedicated despite all their troubles, is signed to a very reasonable contract (even the cheap Islanders don't require their best players to "prove themselves" with a bridge contract), and was a PPG player last year with a mediocre supporting cast

Taveres is the real deal and is way too important for the Islanders to make a trade like that.
after Dipietro and Yashin contract, think they shown not to be cheap...

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