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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-26-2013, 02:08 AM
  #76
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
And do the Sharks have players complimenting each other all over those PP units? I terms of roles, tendencies, handedness etc? Do they have a genuine PP QB? Do they have quality guys in front of the cage to screen?

For four years now I have said that a good/great PP is not about super stars. When our PP scores on a high percentage of their PPs (and they do), then yes... it is because we have a couple of flat out awesome players. But we don't have a full, functional PP unit much less two like the Sharks.

And no movement or PP design is going to change that.
So, is there a more appropriate combination of personnel that could change that?

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01-26-2013, 02:10 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
I started to do a multi-quote of posts that covered what I think are key issues, then realized I was going to be quoting pretty much the whole thread.

For me, there are a lot of reasons why I think Bylsma should be replaced, and I've had that opinion for a while now. Most of the points have already been covered:

Inability to adjust in game. Inability to pre-plan. Which ties into the issues with the system itself. Which he's had months to really examine and compare and contrast with what other teams do, what works, what doesn't. I think that's what frustrates me the most. Months to study tape, plan ahead, tweak the system, and here we are.

Lack of accountability, favoring vets because they're vets, mishandling development of players ... and an apparent inability to coach truly talented players.

I've always felt that he more or less walked into the Cup win, but I was willing to see what he'd do to make the team his own. To quote MT 'nod impress'. The window is closing on Sid and Geno's prime, I don't want to give him the rest of this season. But, honestly, I wanted a coaching change last year before the debacle of the playoffs. The only thing that kept me in the 'let's see what happens next year' was because of the possible tensions in the room, that a couple of unhappy players may have been disrupting the overall dynamic, and that once that wasn't a potential issue things might change. And that hasn't happened.

I believe Dave King's contract with the 'Yotes' is up soon ...
Actually, I think the window is opening on Sid's and Geno's primes.

And, you know my feelings on King. Wouldn't mind-- or have minded a few times in the past few years-- Rick Tocchet as an assistant.

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01-26-2013, 02:14 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I don't know if he's the right coach or not. If I felt this was even close to a complete team, coaching is the first place I would look.

But it's not a complete team, and I swear what irks me the most on these boards, more than anything else, is the assumption that because of two bodies, the TEAM is and should be better than everyone else. Its such an Xbox mentality that I honestly want to stay away from these boards.

Crosby, Malkin, Neal , do not equate to what Chicago can roll out there. When healthy, it doesn't even come close to what Philly could throw out there. I'm using them as two prime examples, but they aren't the only ones.

You have to understand one thing about me: I love my Penguins and Broncos as much as anyone loves their favorite teams, but I never overrate them in terms of talent. That's why whenever I hear these moron prognosticators automatically say "Penguins", I feel like punching the screen because they fall into the same trap that fans do: they overrate the team because of two players, while completely ignoring the supporting cast. That's why the Broncos loss still stings. Yeah they were missing a couple of pieces, but they were finally primed to win, and that's why I still haven't gotten over it. Pens losing to Philly last year? How could anyone not see that coming?

Dupuis can score 30 goals, but he wouldn't be a 30 goal scorer if that makes any sense to you. Same with Kunitz. All I see, and all I've seen for years is one legit scoring line, and glorified third liners sandwiching either Malkin or Crosby (depending on who is healthy) This is not sustainable by any stretch once things start to ramp up in the postseason.

We have three bodies, THREE, who can produce offense on their own. Frankly, its embarrassing when you compare that to the other contenders in the league. That's why I get a kick out of reading silly posts complaining about chest sniping and lack of creativity: what else do these penguin rosters have, other than chest snipers and uncreative forwards littered everywhere? Why are we complaining about kunitz and dupuis not being able to do more when they're clearly incapable of it? You think we are turning pucks over now? Wait until the blunt instruments start attempting "five foot passes" through defenders in the neutral zone, then it'll get really interesting to see everyone's reaction when the puck starts going the other way.

As to why they won the cup? Why did Carolina win it then not make the playoffs the following year. Why hasn't Detroit won a playoff round in three years? Why did Chicago need a Dallas loss on the last day of the season to even make the playoffs the following year after they won? How did Boston blow a 3-0 lead to Philly one year, then sweep them the next? Sometimes, the stars simply align, and sometimes they don't.

I could care less if bylsma gets fired and ends up in a shelter, as long as his replacement is someone I know will make things better. My point in all this is that this team has been fatally flawed for years personnel wise, and while coaching may be a problem, its near the bottom of the list of what's wrong with this team.
I don't disagree with anything about your assessment of this team or about the role of fate. When I asked you about the similarities to four years ago, it was more to note that the team then may have had less talent than the team now. The day Therrien was fired, think of what we had up front. Even more holes than we have now.

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01-26-2013, 02:15 AM
  #79
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There's too much of a "Country Club" atmosphere going on. Mario owns the team, and so that can't come as too much of a surprise. Veterans can play pitifully,(Kunitz) and yet, they know they're not going to be benched. It will always be the younger players who suffer and have to sit up in the pressbox when the vets make mistakes, and that in turn makes the youngsters grip their sticks tighter when they get their next chance. It's just a horrible way to develop younger players.

Dan Bylsma isn't a tactician, at least not as much as he believes he is. Just about every coach in the league has him figured out. I don't think he really has a gameplan, other than the "Let's make 'em play our way" rant. I don't think he has the slightest clue as to how to lead this team. Maybe he gives the stars too much reverance...I dunno.

Something has to give. He hasn't done enough with the talent on this roster to keep his job. This team should at the bare minimum, make the Conference Finals, pretty much every year. It has TWO of the top 10 talents to ever play the game,(imo) in what should be their heyday. And they're only separated in age by just over a year. But Bylsma, can't seem to figure out how to use utilize them properly. There's something fundamentally wrong with that.

And for those of you pointing out his Stanley Cup...remember, that Therrien had his handprints all over that team. That cup wasn't all Bylma's doing. Sure they were playing a more north-south game because of Bylsma, but they were still playing mostly sound, defensive hockey. Things they'd learned from Therrien.


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Old
01-26-2013, 02:18 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
My point in all this is that this team has been fatally flawed for years personnel wise, and while coaching may be a problem, its near the bottom of the list of what's wrong with this team.
You would have said the same thing looking at the roster that won the cup. It is very rare that you have a perfect team, more so with a cap in place.

What defines a good coach/manager, in hockey or business or elsewhere, is to get the most out of your resources. Be that masking deficiencies, creating systems/work flows that suit your players/staff and developing their abilities/correcting their flaws.

Dan Bylsma is not that. He is a bumper sticker. He is an unwholesome diet program where the effects wear off as soon as you stop cheating yourself. If you can honestly look back at the Philly series... or just the game at WPG.... or untold other games where our systematic failures were on full display, and say that coaching is way down our list of problems, you get much, much less about hockey than I otherwise give you credit for.

No offense, but you must be saying this more to suit your past arguments than because this is what you actually see.

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01-26-2013, 02:20 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by canadianguy77 View Post
There's too much of a "Country Club" atmosphere going on. Mario owns the team, and so that can't come as too much of a surprise. Veterans can play pitifully,(Kunitz) and yet, they know they're not going to be benched. It will always be the younger players who suffer and have to sit up in the pressbox, or get sent back down, and that in turn makes them grip their sticks too tight.

Dan Bylsma isn't a tactician, at least not as much as he believes he is. Just about every coach in the league has him figured out. I don't think he really has a gameplan, other than the "Let's make 'em play our way" rant. I don't think he has the slightest clue as to how to lead this team. Maybe he gives the stars too much reverance...I dunno.

Something has to give. He hasn't done enough with the talent on this roster to keep his job. This team should at the bare minimum, make the Conference Finals, pretty much every year.

And for those of you pointing out his Stanley Cup...remember, that Therrien had his handprints all over that team. That cup wasn't all Bylma's doing. Sure they were playing a more north-south game because of Bylsma, but they were still playing mostly sound, defensive hockey. Things they'd learned from Therrien.
You know, MtlPensFan has a point about the role of fate. In that regard, the expectation of Conference Finals pretty much every year may be a little unreasonable. Then again, the expectation of Conference Finals once in the last three years is NOT, nor is the expectation of more than one second round appearance. When you look at what has gone wrong in those series and you now see the same old ****, there has to be a limit.

I don't think Shero does a **** thing, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
You would have said the same thing looking at the roster that won the cup. It is very rare that you have a perfect team, more so with a cap in place.

What defines a good coach/manager, in hockey or business or elsewhere, is to get the most out of your resources. Be that masking deficiencies, creating systems/work flows that suit your players/staff and developing their abilities/correcting their flaws.

Dan Bylsma is not that. He is a bumper sticker. He is an unwholesome diet program where the effects wear off as soon as you stop cheating yourself. If you can honestly look back at the Philly series... or just the game at WPG.... or untold other games where our systematic failures were on full display, and say that coaching is way down our list of problems, you get much, much less about hockey than I otherwise give you credit for.

No offense, but you must be saying this more to suit your past arguments than because this is what you actually see.
I'm at the point where I just feel, at long last, that Sid and Geno deserve the best this franchise can do in terms of linemates AND coaching. They are being shorted in both regards, and it really is a shame.

Question, because it's an argument that's been made: Who out there is a better alternative? By the same token, I do wonder if that should be a question anyway.

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01-26-2013, 02:24 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Jiggy, when you're bored, write the long, boring breakdown. I'd really appreciate it, and I'm sure a lot of others here would.
I can barely keep my eyes open, but I'll explain a strategy used by the Devils last year in the playoffs that the Flyers had no answer for. A strategy I wanted DB to use and kept asking why he stubbornly refused to change the breakout. I was watching the Devs-Flyers game the other night and the Devils were doing the same things again with success.

The Devils used a double chip and chase strategy, because they knew the Flyers defense would be susceptible to their heavy forecheck. The Devils blueliners would chip it to the neutral zone and the fwds would immediately chip it to the strong side with their fwds moving their feet... Other times they would chip off the boards with a supporting fwd pushing the blueliner back to gain zone entry. It really kept the Flyers off balance.

Each breakout is setup based on if there is pressure or not and every player has a role they have to execute to break the puck out efficiently.

The Devils were constantly changing their breakout alignment... Sometimes bringing their wingers below the hash to support the breakout, other times they would press up... They moved their pivots all around, etc. etc. They kept the Flyers constantly guessing on the breakout with the end goal of getting the puck deep so their forecheck could abuse the Flyers.

The breakout is very important, but your forechecking system and cycle are just as important. It's all about countering breakouts and forechecking systems... Forcing players out of their roles and into making mistakes.

I just see DB making poor adjustments in these areas and I don't have a real explanation why he is doing certain things. He knows more about the game than I do, but I can easily recognize adjustments, counters, etc. and when something isn't working right.

I see players, vets, making unforgivable mistakes on breakouts and regroups that should never happen. A perfect example was when Kunitz had the puck and went to regroup in his zone. He went towards the middle of the ice on his backhand and lost it, leading to a great scoring chance for the Jets.

He had the strong side defender, Orpik right there. Play it back and let Orpik regroup and break it out. When you freelance like that, there is no set breakout, and worst of all, you NEVER try to regroup by cutting to the middle of your own zone on the backhand.

There has to be accountability for these mistakes, but there really isn't. I'm seeing the same mistakes as last year and it is worrisome.

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01-26-2013, 02:24 AM
  #83
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So, is there a more appropriate combination of personnel that could change that?
Not on our roster, no.
But that is what happens when every off-season this is ignored. When Letang's minutes with top forwards and subsequent point production masks the fact that he is NOT anything like a top PP performer (and we have no specialists to take over). When we consistently cannot get a satisfying solution for the left side of the PP and when having Crosby, Malkin and Neal on the same unit forces us to play two of them outside of the position they would ideally want.

So no. With this roster I would probably do what we are doing now on the PP.

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01-26-2013, 02:26 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I can barely keep my eyes open, but I'll explain a strategy used by the Devils last year in the playoffs that the Flyers had no answer for. A strategy I wanted DB to use and kept asking why he stubbornly refused to change the breakout. I was watching the Devs-Flyers game the other night and the Devils were doing the same things again with success.

The Devils used a double chip and chase strategy, because they knew the Flyers defense would be susceptible to their heavy forecheck. The Devils blueliners would chip it to the neutral zone and the fwds would immediately chip it to the strong side with their fwds moving their feet... Other times they would chip off the boards with a supporting fwd pushing the blueliner back to gain zone entry. It really kept the Flyers off balance.

Each breakout is setup based on if there is pressure or not and every player has a role they have to execute to break the puck out efficiently.

The Devils were constantly changing their breakout alignment... Sometimes bringing their wingers below the hash to support the breakout, other times they would press up... They moved their pivots all around, etc. etc. They kept the Flyers constantly guessing on the breakout with the end goal of getting the puck deep so their forecheck could abuse the Flyers.

The breakout is very important, but your forechecking system and cycle are just as important. It's all about countering breakouts and forechecking systems... Forcing players out of their roles and into making mistakes.

I just see DB making poor adjustments in these areas and I don't have a real explanation why he is doing certain things. He knows more about the game than I do, but I can easily recognize adjustments, counters, etc. and when something isn't working right.

I see players, vets, making unforgivable mistakes on breakouts and regroups that should never happen. A perfect example was when Kunitz had the puck and went to regroup in his zone. He went towards the middle of the ice on his backhand and lost it, leading to a great scoring chance for the Jets.

He had the strong side defender, Orpik right there. Play it back and let Orpik regroup and break it out. When you freelance like that, there is no set breakout, and worst of all, you NEVER try to regroup by cutting to the middle of your own zone on the backhand.

There has to be accountability for these mistakes, but there really isn't. I'm seeing the same mistakes as last year and it is worrisome.
Great stuff Jiggy. Give us more when you're awake again. It was nice to read it spelled out in layman's language.

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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Not on our roster, no.
But that is what happens when every off-season this is ignored. When Letang's minutes with top forwards and subsequent point production masks the fact that he is NOT anything like a top PP performer (and we have no specialists to take over). When we consistently cannot get a satisfying solution for the left side of the PP and when having Crosby, Malkin and Neal on the same unit forces us to play two of them outside of the position they would ideally want.

So no. With this roster I would probably do what we are doing now on the PP.
I think back to when the Pens PP actually was good-- not just statistically but in terms of dictating and pressuring and really making the PK work-- and the two things we had that we don't now are a true shooting threat from the point (Gonchar) and a true net front presence (Malone).

I remember the open to the 2008-2009 season. Without Gonchar or Whitey, Therrien tried Malkin at the center/right point and Crosby in the right circle. That PP was filled with rookie Gogo on the left and Satan and Sykora. That PP killed it until the PK's for other teams just totally started selling out to take away Sid and Geno.

Me, I'd go Geno at the center/right point, Neal in the right circle, Tangradi in front of the net (because this is one thing he actually does well, parking his *** there and being a son of a ***** to move), Letang in the left circle, and let Sid kind of shark around.

Not sure if it works better, but I've got my two best shooters in position where they can shoot and a net front presence to screen the goalie.

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01-26-2013, 02:29 AM
  #85
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Shero:

Guys, guys, guys, calm down, I can adjust. I can make changes. For the Sens, the perfect lineup:

Adams -Crosby-Michel Ouellet
Glass -Malkin-Kostopolous
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Jeffrey-Vitale-Tangradi


Now tell me that does not look different.

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01-26-2013, 02:34 AM
  #86
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I will confess that I'm a little surprised that there's so much consensus here in terms of what we're seeing and the overall and specific assessments of the coaching staff. Clearly, we're all blind.

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01-26-2013, 02:50 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I don't know if he's the right coach or not. If I felt this was even close to a complete team, coaching is the first place I would look.

But it's not a complete team, and I swear what irks me the most on these boards, more than anything else, is the assumption that because of two bodies, the TEAM is and should be better than everyone else. Its such an Xbox mentality that I honestly want to stay away from these boards.

Crosby, Malkin, Neal , do not equate to what Chicago can roll out there. When healthy, it doesn't even come close to what Philly could throw out there. I'm using them as two prime examples, but they aren't the only ones.


You have to understand one thing about me: I love my Penguins and Broncos as much as anyone loves their favorite teams, but I never overrate them in terms of talent. That's why whenever I hear these moron prognosticators automatically say "Penguins", I feel like punching the screen because they fall into the same trap that fans do: they overrate the team because of two players, while completely ignoring the supporting cast. That's why the Broncos loss still stings. Yeah they were missing a couple of pieces, but they were finally primed to win, and that's why I still haven't gotten over it. Pens losing to Philly last year? How could anyone not see that coming?

Dupuis can score 30 goals, but he wouldn't be a 30 goal scorer if that makes any sense to you. Same with Kunitz. All I see, and all I've seen for years is one legit scoring line, and glorified third liners sandwiching either Malkin or Crosby (depending on who is healthy) This is not sustainable by any stretch once things start to ramp up in the postseason.

We have three bodies, THREE, who can produce offense on their own. Frankly, its embarrassing when you compare that to the other contenders in the league. That's why I get a kick out of reading silly posts complaining about chest sniping and lack of creativity: what else do these penguin rosters have, other than chest snipers and uncreative forwards littered everywhere? Why are we complaining about kunitz and dupuis not being able to do more when they're clearly incapable of it? You think we are turning pucks over now? Wait until the blunt instruments start attempting "five foot passes" through defenders in the neutral zone, then it'll get really interesting to see everyone's reaction when the puck starts going the other way.

As to why they won the cup? Why did Carolina win it then not make the playoffs the following year. Why hasn't Detroit won a playoff round in three years? Why did Chicago need a Dallas loss on the last day of the season to even make the playoffs the following year after they won? How did Boston blow a 3-0 lead to Philly one year, then sweep them the next? Sometimes, the stars simply align, and sometimes they don't.

I could care less if bylsma gets fired and ends up in a shelter, as long as his replacement is someone I know will make things better. My point in all this is that this team has been fatally flawed for years personnel wise, and while coaching may be a problem, its near the bottom of the list of what's wrong with this team.
I agree with you for the most part. In terms of offensive depth, we can't go punch for punch with a few teams. But what value do put on the fact that our elite talent is a step above almost all other teams' elite talent? Is a group of five really good players better than a group of 3 great players? Is a group of 3 great players better than the two best players on the planet?

It's a hard thing to compare and, ultimately, there really is no answer. It's more about how those pieces fit together and how they're being used by the coaching staff. But ultimately I think we can all agree that, at the very least, our roster has had the kind of talent on it that should make us a contender every year. But when the playoffs hit, we look like anything but a contender.

Take the Martin and Michalek signings. The truth is that, regardless of whether or not those contracts were an overpayment, they were still two dmen who were really good players up until that point. Those signings should have helped our team. We had a top 4(Letang/Orpik/Martin/Michalek) that many felt would be one of the best in the league. So what happened? Martin and Michalek just magically became lousy players because they're in Pittsburgh? Is that really a logical conclusion?

The coach's job is to adapt to what he has and put his team in a position to play to their strengths. It shouldn't be the other way around. Bylsma has tunnel vision about how NHL players should play. He makes seemingly no effort to utilize the strengths of what he has. Which is why we see Paul Martin thrust into more of an offensive role than he is suited. Or why we see Kris Letang launching stretch passes instead of using his speed to carry the puck. Or why Tangradi is never used as a net front presence. Or why Malkin's two way game has been neutered.

I'm not saying that the roster is perfect and that the players are absolved from all responsibility. But at some point the lack of results necessitates a change. Is it fair that, in the end, the axe comes down solely on the coach? Probably not. But that's just the nature of the job.


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01-26-2013, 03:18 AM
  #88
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And do the Sharks have players complimenting each other all over those PP units? I terms of roles, tendencies, handedness etc? Do they have a genuine PP QB? Do they have quality guys in front of the cage to screen?

For four years now I have said that a good/great PP is not about super stars. When our PP scores on a high percentage of their PPs (and they do), then yes... it is because we have a couple of flat out awesome players. But we don't have a full, functional PP unit much less two like the Sharks.

And no movement or PP design is going to change that.
If you can, take a look at their 4th goal against the oilers the other day, it was pretty remarkable, really representative of what they are trying to achieve when on the PP. Even on their 5on3s there's movement!


First unit was Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Boyle and Couture.
(won't comment on the second, sorry too lazy)
Pavelski and Boyle are right handed shot.

Boyle most likely at the point or left side.
Pavelski most likely around the crease.
Couture most likely on the left side or high slot.
Thornton most likely down the goal line on the right.
Marleau most likely on the right side or high slot.

but keep in mind that there's a lot of movement with player more often than not rotating, exchanging places, looking to create passing lanes, shooting lanes.

Thornton is obviously their set up man, Marleau more in a role of a shooter in the high slot a la Neal last year. Pavelski creating havoc in front of the keeper, Boyle quaterbacking the PP at the point. Couture giving some options. So you could say they are pretty complementary.

I guess they'd be a proficient unit, even if they were standing still, but add movement(not individually, in unison) and it's a whole higher level. They are moving so much, at one instance Boyle ended up around the net while Pavelski was covering for him at the point.

Unlike the Pens PP which is often overloading the right side, their unit pretty much spread out (even if the puck is obviously more often circulating on the right side)
Of course Boyle is a much better PP QB than Letang and the PKers actually have to respect his shot.


Montreal #1 PP from some years ago is proof than a great PP coach (Kirk Muller I think?) can make a great PP without superstars but with real complementarity between players (really good at their designated role mind you)
The objective being than the whole is greater than the sum of each parts.


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01-26-2013, 03:29 AM
  #89
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01-26-2013, 03:40 AM
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If you can, take a look at their 4th goal against the oilers the other day, it was pretty remarkable, really representative of what they are trying to achieve when on the PP. Even on their 5on3s there's movement!


First unit was Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Boyle and Couture.
(won't comment on the second, sorry too lazy)
Pavelski and Boyle are right handed shot.

Boyle most likely at the point or left side.
Pavelski most likely around the crease.
Couture most likely on the left side or high slot.
Thornton most likely down the goal line on the right.
Marleau most likely on the right side or high slot.

but keep in mind that there's a lot of movement with player more often than not rotating, exchanging places, looking to create passing lanes, shooting lanes.

Thornton is obviously their set up man, Marleau more in a role of a shooter in the high slot a la Neal last year. Pavelski creating havoc in front of the keeper, Boyle quaterbacking the PP at the point. Couture giving some options. So you could say they are pretty complementary.

I guess they'd be a proficient unit, even if they were standing still, but add movement(not individually, in unison) and it's a whole higher level. They are moving so much, at one instance Boyle ended up around the net while Pavelski was covering for him at the point.

Unlike the Pens PP which is often overloading the right side, their unit pretty much spread out (even if the puck is obviously more often circulating on the right side)
Of course Boyle is a much better PP QB than Letang and the PKers actually have to respect his shot.
I don't mean to say that movement isn't very important. Of course it is no matter the unit.
But what I say about complementarity is that these guys must all be respected by the opponents D, thus giving each and everyone that extra split second, and as they are all natural PP players with hands for the job, implementing all this movement is that much easier because everyone can move in high traffic areas and give and take challenging passes.

My point is that you cannot do the same with the Pens, and the more we move, the more confused we look and the more Sid and Malkin forces passes to eachother and Neal, because they don't trust the others to keep up. That's what I am seeing at least.

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01-26-2013, 03:44 AM
  #91
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If we are going to make a coaching change sooner is better than later especially this year

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01-26-2013, 03:47 AM
  #92
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You would have said the same thing looking at the roster that won the cup. It is very rare that you have a perfect team, more so with a cap in place.

What defines a good coach/manager, in hockey or business or elsewhere, is to get the most out of your resources. Be that masking deficiencies, creating systems/work flows that suit your players/staff and developing their abilities/correcting their flaws.

Dan Bylsma is not that. He is a bumper sticker. He is an unwholesome diet program where the effects wear off as soon as you stop cheating yourself. If you can honestly look back at the Philly series... or just the game at WPG.... or untold other games where our systematic failures were on full display, and say that coaching is way down our list of problems, you get much, much less about hockey than I otherwise give you credit for.

No offense, but you must be saying this more to suit your past arguments than because this is what you actually see.
Then you haven't been reading my posts for as long as you claim if I'm simply lying to support past arguments. No offence.

Ask Kirk about my Bill Guerin rants, 20 goals goals and all, going back to three years ago when DB was still popular, and how the lack of winger help would bite us.

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01-26-2013, 03:51 AM
  #93
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I'm sure a few people are hoping that I poke my head in this thread, as I've been the resident Bylsma supporter in this forum now for the past year and change.

I will start by saying this - I have been just as annoyed as most of you when we make the same mistakes over and over again that cost us games. While a lot of them seem to me as being individual miscues, I concede that at some point it's the coaches responsibility to get players to play the right way. I've also been disappointed in how disciplined this team has been under Bylsma, both in terms of the way they take unnecessary penalties as well as the accountability of players who seem to get away with making poor decisions left and right. It seems as if they've either tuned him out or he's just not doing an adequate job getting the message across. Either way it's concerning.

Ultimately however I do not think this is a matter of X's and O's. We've seen this team play their game and completely outplays teams for extended periods of time. Even in the Philly series last year we had spurts of complete and utter domination. Laviolette knew the storm was coming but was helpless to stop the onslaught before serious damage had been done. While they made some impressive comebacks, Laviolette had his team in a position where they were huge dogs to win. That's not part of any coach's gameplan.

When I look back at the Pens losses I don't usually chalk them up to being outplayed. It's usually a matter of beating ourselves. Is that grounds for finding another coach? I'm not sure. What I do know however is that just about every fanbase in hockey seems to hate their coach at one point or another - even the most successful teams. People were ready to kick the door down and remove Claude Julien from the Bruins facilities after they had an epic meltdown against Philly. They kept him, and a year later they won the Cup. Quenneville has had plenty of critics in Chicago after failing to do anything of note since their Cup victory. McLellan is presumably on the hotseat once again. Laviolette has had tons of ups and downs in his coaching career. Hitchcock has been fired by teams several times. I could go on and on .. the bottom line is that fans are going to be driven crazy by their coach and attribute everything that goes wrong with something they did or didn't do. To some degree that's just the nature of the business and comes with the territory, but I think as fans we get too riled up over our teams and have a hard time looking at things objectively. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. Other teams go through the same phases that we do, usually much worse. The same thing is going to happen no matter who our next hypothetical head coach is.

Ultimately I'm of the opinion that with coaches you have to take the good with the bad, and there's a lot more good than bad with Bylsma. It's hard to see the forest through the trees right now, but people need to take a breather and see that we're four games into the season and some sloppy hockey is to be expected after missing so much time and having a short camp to work with. So far we've convincinly beaten two EC contenders and lost to Toronto and Winnipeg. Not everything makes sense right now. Let's check back in April.

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01-26-2013, 04:12 AM
  #94
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call up beau bennett

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01-26-2013, 04:14 AM
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Too soon?


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01-26-2013, 04:40 AM
  #96
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I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about the finer technical aspects of the game, or that DB's without fault, but people seemed pretty pleased with his coaching at the two-game mark. Has that much changed in the two games since?

I've heard people talk about Bylsma's failure to adjust being his kryptonite against better coaches, but I think if you were to poll most Pens fans, the idea that Carlyle and Noel were better than Tortorella and Laviolette probably wouldn't be held by the majority before now.

The best argument for DB is probably that 5 minute stretch in the 2nd period against the Rangers when we straight Globetrotted them. That's what Bylsma's emphasis on quick transition, aggression, getting the puck deep and making the opponent play in their end can look like when executed well. But when we're making multiple low-percentage cross-ice attempts and drop passes at the opposition blueline? Not so much.

We tease about DB always going back to the "we didn't get to our game" when we lose, but the execution really has looked to be lacking the last couple games. We've been pretty damn sloppy, so...maybe not the best two games to judge?

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01-26-2013, 05:06 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I don't mean to say that movement isn't very important. Of course it is no matter the unit.
But what I say about complementarity is that these guys must all be respected by the opponents D, thus giving each and everyone that extra split second, and as they are all natural PP players with hands for the job, implementing all this movement is that much easier because everyone can move in high traffic areas and give and take challenging passes.

My point is that you cannot do the same with the Pens, and the more we move, the more confused we look and the more Sid and Malkin forces passes to eachother and Neal, because they don't trust the others to keep up. That's what I am seeing at least.
Oh I agree, btw I wasn't implying that the Pens should do the same. Just that I loved the Sharks PP.
The fact is, we've had relatively efficient PPs in the near past and there wasn't that much movement on them once we were set up. Of course, we had that player with number 55..

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01-26-2013, 05:49 AM
  #98
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Then you haven't been reading my posts for as long as you claim if I'm simply lying to support past arguments. No offence.
I am not saying that you are 'lying'. I am saying that - along with many others here, myself included at times I'm sure, you can be wed to a line of thought in spite of what you see.

And in any event this isn't me saying that we don't have roster issues! We are mostly in agreement here, although I don't believe we are as far away as you seem to indicate. Give Crosby a genuine top line forward, move Kunitz to Malkin's line and we are good to go with four lines.

This is me saying that you cannot be serious when arguing that coaching has not been an apparent issue, worse yet is supposedly far down our list of problems.

Whether a majority of our forwards are lumberjacks, chest snipers or pluggers, they are certainly NHL'ers, as are our D-men, and there is no reason they should be making as elementary mistakes as they do, or that they should all think they must keep doing what is consistently killing them if it isn't what they're being told.

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01-26-2013, 06:00 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about the finer technical aspects of the game, or that DB's without fault, but people seemed pretty pleased with his coaching at the two-game mark. Has that much changed in the two games since?
No. But some of us, certainly I, said that we were second best for the last two periods against the Flyers and that the Rangers game was also due to them playing a terrible second and very good goal tending by Vokoun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
We tease about DB always going back to the "we didn't get to our game" when we lose, but the execution really has looked to be lacking the last couple games. We've been pretty damn sloppy, so...maybe not the best two games to judge?
Bylsma is probably not as good or bad as any of us would want to argue, but ultimately the problem is not that anyone is judging based on two games - good or bad. It is that when we are bad, this is how we look, and we've seen it often enough to know. And this isn't even with poor goaltending or 'should be good players' like Martin making epic gaffes.

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01-26-2013, 06:01 AM
  #100
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Whether a majority of our forwards are lumberjacks, chest snipers or pluggers, they are certainly NHL'ers, as are our D-men, and there is no reason they should be making as elementary mistakes as they do, or that they should all think they must keep doing what is consistently killing them if it isn't what they're being told.
I honestly can't imagine any coach - let alone Bylsma - would tell his team to do a lot of the things our players have been doing the past couple games.

Guys like Sid and Kunitz in the post-game have come out saying they made bad mistakes and got away from what made them successful against NY and Philly. From what I saw, they're right.

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