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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:05 AM
  #101
Warm Cookies
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
No. But some of us, certainly I, said that we were second best for the last two periods against the Flyers and that the Rangers game was also due to them playing a terrible second and very good goal tending by Vokoun.
Come on now, TR. We were firing on all cylinders against NY for that sequence. We were the better team.

Played Philly alright, but I agree, they were better overall.

Quote:
Bylsma is probably not as good or bad as any of us would want to argue, but ultimately the problem is not that anyone is judging based on two games - good or bad. It is that when we are bad, this is how we look, and we've seen it often enough to know. And this isn't even with poor goaltending or 'should be good players' like Martin making epic gaffes.
Among others, our should be great players like Malkin and Crosby have not been managing the puck well. It's 4 games into the season, so I wouldn't begin to make broad, sweeping judgements just yet.

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01-26-2013, 08:04 AM
  #102
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First off, as MTLPens fans rightfully said, this team can't roll lines like Buffalo, Philly, etc. However, they should have been more than skilled enough to beat Montreal and TB in the playoffs, and to at least avoid being embarrassed against Philly last year.

Shero deserves a lot of the blame. He's assembled a team based on speed. Which isn't a bad thing, but the Pens are very easy to play against. They don't have the size or willingness to forecheck. What do Kuni, Dupuis, Cooke, Kennedy, Adams, Vitale, Glass, Sutter, Tangradi have in common? Everything. Aside from slight differences, they're all the same guy. None of them are natural scorers, none are great with the puck, and for varying reasons none of them are very effective forecheckers. (Although Vitale is awesome in his role). Their D is also sofff. They can't move people from in front of the net, and aside from Letang and maybe Nisky, none of them are offensive minded either. So what are they? It's also been how many years now that Shero hasn't been able to find Sid a winger? Unacceptable.

That being said, Byslma is the biggest problem. No need to retype the reasons. They've already been posted. But his 'scheme' is ridiculous. He makes no adjustments. I honestly don't know what their game plan is. More often than not they look like cherry-picking, Harlem Globetrotting, tards who've forgotten the basics of hockey.

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01-26-2013, 08:41 AM
  #103
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My biggest problem with the system is that its almost an oxymoron. An aggressive zone defense? Really? It does nothing but leave players scambling back into position.

It seems like its hard to play in and way to active. Look at that 3rd goal last night... Engo and Lovejoy are both behind the net, Engo wheels the puck around the boards, Neal make a bad catch and Lovejoy leaves a player open because he's scrambling back to the front of the net. Lovejoy has to pick up that the puck has been turned over, find the man and react.

Its insane how the Pens defense are stitched at the hip and are always caught on one side of the ice, in the same corner or both behind the net. This has been happening since Gogo and McKee were a pairing.

The biggest slap in the nuts is how much stress the Pens have put on PMD's during the draft and at FA time. Whats it done? We don't see an overly great transitional team or even break aways. In the end all they really do is ring the puck around the boards anyway. Scuds and Gill could have done that.

Even in the neutral zone and offensive zone. Everythings about pressure, pressure, pressure... go go go... shoot shoot shoot... I understand that an up tempo game is good but not at the risk of poise, puck management and set up.

I know the seasons 4 games in but these are the same problems we've seen for years with Disco/ Tony G hockey. It used to be that the great coaches like Jaques, Lavs and Hitch would pick it apart but now its being beaten by some bottom teams.

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01-26-2013, 08:58 AM
  #104
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Ive been annoyed with Bylsma ever since he changed what worked for the cup win. The more this goes on the more I strongly believe that the Cup Victory was more a product of simply changing away from Therrien than Bylsma being a good coach.

Since then this team has underachieved greatly. The last few years it has been picked as the likely cup winners yet it puts up an disappointing effort in the playoffs and in some cases barely limps into it. Coaching is a what have you done for me lately kind of profession and Bylsma has NOT produced as of late given the kind of star power he has been given.

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01-26-2013, 09:12 AM
  #105
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It was the perfect storm in '09. Since then, we've seen the results. It's not pretty.

Is he a good coach? Yes. Is he the right coach for a team with two uber-talents like Crosby and Malkin? Hell no. I hate the fact he rolls four lines. I hate the fact he wants us to play this grinding game. We're not the Nashville Predators, so why are we playing like them? It doesn't make any sense. Do you think Barry Trotz would adjust his style if Nashville suddenly acquired Crosby and Malkin? Trotz has NO CHOICE but to play a certain style. We don't. We can do whatever we want, but we choose to play this predictable, grinding, bland style that saps all creativity out of the lineup and renders players into robotic tendencies.

I also hate the fact teams around the league seem to be going back to the enforcer role, but Bylsma rolls four lines with two of the greatest players in the game in his lineup. I hate the fact that Despres isn't developing. Tangradi isn't developing. We have precious few options. This isn't all on Bylsma. Shero hasn't helped him enough. Shero hasn't broken away from the Nashville model enough, and it compounds the problem.

I laugh when people talk about the "talented Penguins", or call playing against us a "track meet". We come out of the gate strongly most nights. We flash our two best players early. Then, we take a lead and it's grind, grind grind. This is not only losing hockey, but it's also very unentertaining. Which is hard to do with our lineup.

We need fresh ideas. We need some newness to this roster. We need something to change. Because we're not winning anything with this current setup.

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01-26-2013, 09:21 AM
  #106
Ugene Malkin
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I want to add this team needs depth, not any depth, but the right depth.

Defense - needs more than the forwards. You can't rely on Lovejoy and rookies to be your mainstay with how this particular D is set up. It can easily be worn down with pressure.

Forwards - they only need a guy who can somewhat replace what left with Staal.

Coaching - What coaching? This guy is the biggest part of that country club. Personally, I want Fitzgerald either coaching this team or helping eradicating it of DB's new system that has won them nothing but regular season accolades.

Question - Do you even remember what that system was back in 2009?


Final - It's early still, and this will all be chalked up not being together long enough to get acclimated to the new shorten season. Give'em a couple weeks.

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01-26-2013, 09:39 AM
  #107
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Dan Bylsma has made some... dubious personnel decisions lately. I understand that he didn't have a full training camp to work everything out. But, the rest of the league didn't either.

We'll see how the Ottawa game goes. The minute distribution on this team is just far too top heavy right now. To be fair, we lost a lot of talent during the offseason and maybe this is the only way HCDB thinks we can succeed.

Oh well...

By the way, if Sidney Crosby leads your team in hits, then your bottom six isn't doing its job.

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01-26-2013, 09:49 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Ive been annoyed with Bylsma ever since he changed what worked for the cup win. The more this goes on the more I strongly believe that the Cup Victory was more a product of simply changing away from Therrien than Bylsma being a good coach.

Since then this team has underachieved greatly. The last few years it has been picked as the likely cup winners yet it puts up an disappointing effort in the playoffs and in some cases barely limps into it. Coaching is a what have you done for me lately kind of profession and Bylsma has NOT produced as of late given the kind of star power he has been given.
I think that single statement says so much. The Pens go to back to back finals playing a certain way and being a bunch of cowboys and then change it up for this garbage???

I thought that since Disco came from WB, he would tinker with the system a little but keep it in place. Not give the Pens a vasectomy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Lucic talking trash to Crosby last year and then saying "... what are you going to do about it" is exactly where the Pens are as a team right now and have been for a while.

They're stale, they're blah, they're sloppy and they're getting worse every year.

I really wonder how much input Tony G has with the system and how the Av's played during his time there.

One things pretty clear to me, this team lost its ball sack once Talbot left. Dime a dozen player my ass! That guy was the chip on this team shoulder and could shift a game in the Pens favor with one energized shift. People took shots at him but want to give "Big Vag" his break. Give me a friggin break already.

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01-26-2013, 09:52 AM
  #109
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Even when the Pens won the Cup... How much of it was Bylsma's system working, and how much of it was this team getting hot at the right time?

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01-26-2013, 10:02 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
I think that single statement says so much. The Pens go to back to back finals playing a certain way and being a bunch of cowboys and then change it up for this garbage???

I thought that since Disco came from WB, he would tinker with the system a little but keep it in place. Not give the Pens a vasectomy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Lucic talking trash to Crosby last year and then saying "... what are you going to do about it" is exactly where the Pens are as a team right now and have been for a while.

They're stale, they're blah, they're sloppy and they're getting worse every year.

I really wonder how much input Tony G has with the system and how the Av's played during his time there.

One things pretty clear to me, this team lost its ball sack once Talbot left. Dime a dozen player my ass! That guy was the chip on this team shoulder and could shift a game in the Pens favor with one energized shift. People took shots at him but want to give "Big Vag" his break. Give me a friggin break already.
Remember the year (07-08 I think) they had Laraque, Roberts, Ruutu, Malone, Gill, Talbot? That team was tough as hell to play against. Not talking just fighting, but grit, meanness, hitting, etc. A few years later we had Rupp, Talbot, Asham, Engo, Godard. Tough as hell to play against.

IMO, this team changed that night against the Islanders. After that, there was a mass exodus of grit and toughness. Maybe that was in anticipation of the league turning into Olympic-style hockey. Maybe Mario never wanted to have a team of his involved in a game like that again. But to me, a lot of things changed after that night, at least as far as the physical make up of this roster.

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01-26-2013, 10:04 AM
  #111
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Great stuff Jiggy. Give us more when you're awake again. It was nice to read it spelled out in layman's language.
I can keep breaking down specifics, but people's eyes will gloss over. It isn't sexy stuff.

It also doesn't matter what system you run if your team continues to play outside of the system. We have way too many guys not doing their part. So many guys are turning the puck over, the biggest culprits being Crosby and Malkin, that I don't even know who to criticize the most. I lost count of how many dumb mental mistakes I saw the last two games. No just turnovers, but undisciplined penalties.

I'm ok with a penalty when a guy is trying to make a play or defend... But these are lazy, retaliatory penalties. You don't have to know the Xs and Os to see that in the last two games, this team has fallen right back into the same problems that plagued them last season down the stretch and agt. Philly.

I'm discouraged by DB inabilty to adjust, no doubt, but I'm hoping he works it out. What most concerns me is the lack of discipline.

DB holds the young kids accountable and makes them into scapegoats, then dresses guys like Engo and he lays two turds in a row. Kunitz is making bad play after bad play, and he never misses a shift. Cooke was a turnover machine last night and he never missed a shift.

Where is the accountability for the vets? They are the ones making the same mistakes that killed this team last season and in these last two games.

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01-26-2013, 10:07 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Even when the Pens won the Cup... How much of it was Bylsma's system working, and how much of it was this team getting hot at the right time?
He did have his part in it too. I think he let the Pens play that smashmouth hockey against the Wings defense instead of backing off into the trap. He also made some big calls like putting together Malkin/ Talbot.

Thats what the Pens need... Disco's take on MT's system not complete changing the wheel.

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01-26-2013, 10:10 AM
  #113
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maybe people will finally start appreciating how valuable the contributions of therrien and gill were to the pens success.

two guys that have been unfairly ripped, both during their time here and after.

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01-26-2013, 10:27 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
maybe people will finally start appreciating how valuable the contributions of therrien and gill were to the pens success.

two guys that have been unfairly ripped, both during their time here and after.
IMO the Scuds and Gill pairing was as big as anyone during those cup runs. Together they made so many key plays and made MAF a better goalie.

I hated MT for WB but I like him as an NHL coach. That being said when his time was up it really was his time to go. The team wasn't responding to him anymore.

Mike Yeo might be another name to remember.

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01-26-2013, 10:46 AM
  #115
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Some roster changes need to be made and line-ups.

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01-26-2013, 10:52 AM
  #116
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I can't comment about Bylsma's alleged system, when I watch I just see pond hockey. While producing some breathtaking moments, it doesn't win consistently and it DEFINITELY doesn't win in the playoffs against good competition. Even the first two games weren't much different. There was a lot of sloppy play going on there, they hardly looked like a well-oiled machine.

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01-26-2013, 10:56 AM
  #117
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I do think though that Shero is my number one culprit. Instead of keeping himself at arm's length from Bylsma, like a GM probably should, he seems to have totally tied his own fate to Bylsma, buying into his philosophy wholesale. He has repeatedly emphasized, including after last year's debacle vs. Philly, how much he believes in Bylsma and his system. Even his draft picks and player acquisitions have been conducted with an eye toward finding guys who fit into Bylsma's approach. IMO, at the great expense of the roster as he's made the team (and especially the defense) softer and easier to play against, and turned up his nose at free agents who could have helped the team.

So I really don't know what's going to happen here, because Shero and Bylsma have a close working relationship and seem to be both drinking the same kool-aid. I said it in the other thread, I think Mario will axe Shero before Shero will can Bylsma.

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01-26-2013, 10:59 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
I can't comment about Bylsma's alleged system, when I watch I just see pond hockey. While producing some breathtaking moments, it doesn't win consistently and it DEFINITELY doesn't win in the playoffs against good competition. Even the first two games weren't much different. There was a lot of sloppy play going on there, they hardly looked like a well-oiled machine.
We did finish 3 points away from the President's Trophy last year while missing Crosby for 3/4 of the season...

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01-26-2013, 11:00 AM
  #119
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-His answer for everything is be more aggressive.
-Too player friendly
-Horrible roster management ex..Strait>>>>Lovejoy
-His answer for everything is be more aggressive.

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01-26-2013, 11:01 AM
  #120
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We did finish 3 points away from the President's Trophy last year while missing Crosby for 3/4 of the season...
And then got manhandled in the first round.

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01-26-2013, 11:05 AM
  #121
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And then got manhandled in the first round.
Yep. One can argue that they haven't been good at winning when it matters (and I would), but they have absolutely been winning consistently under Bylsma in spite of a lot of setbacks.

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01-26-2013, 11:08 AM
  #122
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We did finish 3 points away from the President's Trophy last year while missing Crosby for 3/4 of the season...
Yeah, we did, although in the 3 point game era there is often little difference between President's trophy and the golf course, making point totals a questionable barometer. Though it is true that if we were as poorly coached as some here make it sound like, we wouldn't even be having the success that we have had. But Bylsma's teams have so underperformed in the playoffs, that I think it's clear his brand of hockey doesn't win in the playoffs, which everyone agrees is a different kind of hockey. This of course assumes that the Cup victory was not pure "Bylsma hockey" being played.

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01-26-2013, 11:12 AM
  #123
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I'm in the camp that says Bylsma needs to go. But if Bylsma goes, Shero has to as well. He'd slot John Hynes in to Bylsma's position because he "knows the system." What this team needs is a front-office overhaul.

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01-26-2013, 11:16 AM
  #124
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First off, as MTLPens fans rightfully said, this team can't roll lines like Buffalo, Philly, etc. However, they should have been more than skilled enough to beat Montreal and TB in the playoffs, and to at least avoid being embarrassed against Philly last year.

Shero deserves a lot of the blame. He's assembled a team based on speed. Which isn't a bad thing, but the Pens are very easy to play against. They don't have the size or willingness to forecheck. What do Kuni, Dupuis, Cooke, Kennedy, Adams, Vitale, Glass, Sutter, Tangradi have in common? Everything. Aside from slight differences, they're all the same guy. None of them are natural scorers, none are great with the puck, and for varying reasons none of them are very effective forecheckers. (Although Vitale is awesome in his role). Their D is also sofff. They can't move people from in front of the net, and aside from Letang and maybe Nisky, none of them are offensive minded either. So what are they? It's also been how many years now that Shero hasn't been able to find Sid a winger? Unacceptable.

That being said, Byslma is the biggest problem. No need to retype the reasons. They've already been posted. But his 'scheme' is ridiculous. He makes no adjustments. I honestly don't know what their game plan is. More often than not they look like cherry-picking, Harlem Globetrotting, tards who've forgotten the basics of hockey.
Phenomenal post, especially the bolded part. I agree with everything you've said. Save for three or four guys, the Penguins basically have one kind of forward and one kind of defenseman, repeated over and over and over. And when a hole in the lineup opens up, Shero simply looks to acquire more of the same. A couple of years ago when it was rumored that Shero was kicking the tires on Raffi Torres, I nearly lost it.

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01-26-2013, 11:17 AM
  #125
Ugene Malkin
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Yeah, we did, although in the 3 point game era there is often little difference between President's trophy and the golf course, making point totals a questionable barometer. Though it is true that if we were as poorly coached as some here make it sound like, we wouldn't even be having the success that we have had. But Bylsma's teams have so underperformed in the playoffs, that I think it's clear his brand of hockey doesn't win in the playoffs, which everyone agrees is a different kind of hockey. This of course assumes that the Cup victory was not pure "Bylsma hockey" being played.
You can assume correct.

The season after the cup win he implemented his philosophy/system. Needless to say he has been a winner in regular season mostly, one second round oust since the cup. Granted the injuries any coach would have had trouble with what was left, but you're up 3-1 in a series and you can't get your guys to close it out?

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