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Let's lay off the D, the real problem with the wings is the PP.

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01-26-2013, 09:54 AM
  #51
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The problem with the point shot bomb strategy is that it's predictable. It helps to get everyone moving/cycling and get the shotblockers guessing.
Agreed. I watch Vancouver, Chicago, etc. and they'll move the puck down low and look for the cross-ice one timers. Of course the all try to get the puck first to the blueline for the occasional "shot bomb" but it's not their only tactic. Henrik Sedin is the best at it. He can thread the needle through the most congested crease out there and find his brother for the one-timer (watch last night's PP goal).

Which is exactly why I prefer having Brunner in the slot. Keep Kronwall and a playmaking QB like Z back there (both on the 1 and 2 man advantage). Datsyuk (our best passer, to thread the needle) and Brunner (the "gunner" ) in the slot. Franzen the fat ass in front of net to stuff in the garbage goal.

On the second unit Filppula takes Datsyuk's role (since he'll never shoot it apparently), Bert takes Franzen's role, White and Smith as QB. The toughest is who takes Brunner's spot? Samuelsson?

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01-26-2013, 02:35 PM
  #52
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Agreed. I watch Vancouver, Chicago, etc. and they'll move the puck down low and look for the cross-ice one timers. Of course the all try to get the puck first to the blueline for the occasional "shot bomb" but it's not their only tactic. Henrik Sedin is the best at it. He can thread the needle through the most congested crease out there and find his brother for the one-timer (watch last night's PP goal).
I'm not in disagreement, but we don't have anybody as good as Edler or Sedin to run the point. When you don't have the horses, you have to work with what you have rather than try to turn your show pony into a work horse.

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01-26-2013, 03:36 PM
  #53
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Two straight goalie Con Smythe winners? Surely that plays a roll in the 5 on 5 number and the requirement for the PP to be less potent.

But I maintain those teams still had Doughty and Chara running the point, two of the best in the business, even if the numbers didn't show it.

I'd also argue the Hawks and Penguins didn't get much game stealing goalie support, so it certainly helped that their PP was over 20%.
chara is not a very good PP QB, imo. he has a huge shot, but does not really run PP, which is one reason why boston has sometimes used him at the front of the net.

and boston does not lack big players to play at the front. does lack someone to run PP since marc savard's head injury.

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I don't know. If you have a good PP you probably have some great offensive threats. And like, that could win you some games. Maybe playoff games.

I maintain the Wings need a better PP QB. Kronwall is pretty good, but not good enough to make it a top threat. A far cry from Rafalski and Lidstrom, at least.
agree

i thought PP would be one of the main areas lidstrom would be missed.

PP also relies too much on a couple of plays, and is not creative.

some of it is also probably connected to zetterberg's transition to playmaker. during his peak, he scored more goals on PP than he has recently.

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Kronner's stick isn't nearly as accurate as Nick's was. Lidstrom's smarts and accuracy both passing and shooting were far superior to what Kronwall brings to the table. That's not a jab at Kronwall. He just isn't in the same stratosphere as Lidstrom even at 42.
i think you are exaggerating, but lidstrom was clearly better on PP, imo.

i don't think kronwall has lidstrom's playmaking ability, and i think his offensive game relies too much on moving forward. also not as smart with the puck.

hard to say about shot accuracy, since lidstrom so often shot for deflections and rebounds, and kronwall seems to like to shoot high.

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01-26-2013, 05:26 PM
  #54
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DO IT NOW KENNY.

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01-26-2013, 05:47 PM
  #55
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Bergevin isn't going to trade Subban's rights and the only way to sign him to an offersheet that won't be matched would mean a long term overpayment, while also costing the team a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick or more.

Subban isn't going anywhere.

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01-26-2013, 05:53 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Bergevin isn't going to trade Subban's rights and the only way to sign him to an offersheet that won't be matched would mean a long term overpayment, while also costing the team a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick or more.

Subban isn't going anywhere.
Yes this all reminds me of Drew Daughty and the delay in him signinga new contact with the Kings. No one is going to waste time throwing an offer sheet at Subban. Fun to think about though.

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01-26-2013, 06:00 PM
  #57
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Bergevin isn't going to trade Subban's rights and the only way to sign him to an offersheet that won't be matched would mean a long term overpayment, while also costing the team a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick or more.

Subban isn't going anywhere.
Bergevin is dead set on signing him to the bridge contract. Subban is dead set on getting payed what he's worth. I think Bergevin is going to end up having to move him for something soon.

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01-26-2013, 06:39 PM
  #58
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Bergevin is dead set on signing him to the bridge contract. Subban is dead set on getting payed what he's worth. I think Bergevin is going to end up having to move him for something soon.
Why? The Canadiens aren't exactly falling apart without him and the only thing he has to worry about is another team offering a ridiculous offer-sheet in which case he still has the option of taking all the draft picks.

There is no scenario where trading his rights is a good idea IMO

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01-26-2013, 07:10 PM
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Why? The Canadiens aren't exactly falling apart without him and the only thing he has to worry about is another team offering a ridiculous offer-sheet in which case he still has the option of taking all the draft picks.

There is no scenario where trading his rights is a good idea IMO
You have two scenarios when you are at an impasse like this:

A). Stop contract talks and wait until either Subban decides to take the deal (I doubt it), or wait until someone signs a ridiculous offer sheet (also unlikely. Rarely do we see offersheets anymore.) This scenario bears no fruit. It's a dumb move for a GM, because you get nothing out of it. You get no Subban for the time being until he signs. Even if he does, Subban is probably guaranteed to bolt Montreal ASAP just to give Bergevin the middle finger for treating him in this manner.

B). Trade him for cheap, valuable assets. If you don't want to pay Subban, and Subban doesn't want to play until he gets payed what he feels is reasonable, then you trade him and get cheap talent with upside back who will have to play. If no side can come to an agreement, then this is the best option. Subban gets his cash, and Montreal has kids under cheap contracts to play for them.

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01-26-2013, 07:12 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
You have two scenarios when you are at an impasse like this:

A). Stop contract talks and wait until either Subban decides to take the deal (I doubt it), or wait until someone signs a ridiculous offer sheet (also unlikely. Rarely do we see offersheets anymore.) This scenario bears no fruit. It's a dumb move for a GM, because you get nothing out of it. You get no Subban for the time being until he signs, if he does, and probably guarantee he bolts Montreal ASAP just to give Bergevin the middle finger.

B). Trade him for cheap, valuable assets. If you don't want to pay Subban, and Subban doesn't want to play until he gets payed what he feels is reasonable, then you trade him and get cheap talent with upside back who will have to pay. If no side can come to an agreement, then this is the best option. Subban gets his cash, and Montreal has kids under cheap contracts to play for them.
Why does MTL want "kids under cheap contracts"? Montreal can afford whatever contracts they want, they just don't agree Subban is worth big $$$ at the moment. If they trade him it is for something valuable, not something affordable.

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01-26-2013, 07:14 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
You have two scenarios when you are at an impasse like this:

A). Stop contract talks and wait until either Subban decides to take the deal (I doubt it), or wait until someone signs a ridiculous offer sheet (also unlikely. Rarely do we see offersheets anymore.) This scenario bears no fruit. It's a dumb move for a GM, because you get nothing out of it. You get no Subban for the time being until he signs, if he does, and probably guarantee he bolts Montreal ASAP just to give Bergevin the middle finger.

B). Trade him for cheap, valuable assets. If you don't want to pay Subban, and Subban doesn't want to play until he gets payed what he feels is reasonable, then you trade him and get cheap talent with upside back who will have to pay. If no side can come to an agreement, then this is the best option. Subban gets his cash, and Montreal has kids under cheap contracts to play for them.
This scenario already played out with Turris.

He was signed. Then traded.

And that was a scenario where Turris was throwing a hissy fit about playing in Phoenix. Subban isn't having a hissy fit about Montreal.

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01-26-2013, 07:16 PM
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Why does MTL want "kids under cheap contracts"? Montreal can afford whatever contracts they want, they just don't agree Subban is worth big $$$ at the moment. If they trade him it is for something valuable, not something affordable.
I don't know exactly what they want. You are correct, they can afford anything and will be able to take anything they want back in a trade without any monetary concerns. But remember this, there is nothing more valuable today in the world of sports than excellent talent on cheap contracts.

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01-26-2013, 07:18 PM
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I don't know exactly what they want. You are correct, they can afford anything and will be able to take anything they want back in a trade without any monetary concerns. But remember this, there is nothing more valuable today in the world of sports than excellent talent on cheap contracts.
Well, obviously. But if they are offered someone like Bobby Ryan for him (random name) I don't think they will say "nah... he is making more than an ELC... you keep him"

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01-26-2013, 07:19 PM
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This scenario already played out with Turris.

He was signed. Then traded.

And that was a scenario where Turris was throwing a hissy fit about playing in Phoenix. Subban isn't having a hissy fit about Montreal.
Apples and Oranges. Turris didn't carry nearly the leverage then that Subban has now. But it goes to show that contract negotiations that go sour like the Turris situation and the Subban situation we have now probably result in a destroyed relationship between management and player.

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01-26-2013, 07:21 PM
  #65
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Still believe they should offersheet Subban. I don't care how unrealistic it is. He's a 23 year-old dynamic, offensive force, hard hitting d-man. Worth a shot. Kronwall isn't a number 1. PK is. And he's just gonna get better.

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01-26-2013, 07:24 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Apples and Oranges. Turris didn't carry nearly the leverage then that Subban has now. But it goes to show that contract negotiations that go sour like the Turris situation and the Subban situation we have now probably result in a destroyed relationship between management and player.
You're really getting yourself too hyped up over the idea he's going to get moved.

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01-26-2013, 07:25 PM
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Still believe they should offersheet Subban. I don't care how unrealistic it is. He's a 23 year-old dynamic, offensive force, hard hitting d-man. Worth a shot. Kronwall isn't a number 1. PK is. And he's just gonna get better.
Offersheeting Subban would be akin to doing Bergevin's job for him for free. Nobody is going to offer sheet Subban because they know Montreal will match within seconds. Teams like Philly and Detroit presumably are lying in wait like a hungry lion. They know if the situation staggers that it will get to the point where Subban says "Screw this. I really wanna play for the Habs, but if you're gonna give me this BS send me to a team that will actually pay me what I'm worth." And if that happens, you pounce and try to take the Gazelle.

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01-26-2013, 10:30 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
You have two scenarios when you are at an impasse like this:

A). Stop contract talks and wait until either Subban decides to take the deal (I doubt it), or wait until someone signs a ridiculous offer sheet (also unlikely. Rarely do we see offersheets anymore.) This scenario bears no fruit. It's a dumb move for a GM, because you get nothing out of it. You get no Subban for the time being until he signs. Even if he does, Subban is probably guaranteed to bolt Montreal ASAP just to give Bergevin the middle finger for treating him in this manner.

B). Trade him for cheap, valuable assets. If you don't want to pay Subban, and Subban doesn't want to play until he gets payed what he feels is reasonable, then you trade him and get cheap talent with upside back who will have to play. If no side can come to an agreement, then this is the best option. Subban gets his cash, and Montreal has kids under cheap contracts to play for them.
The pressure isn't really on Bergevin at all, its on Subban.

He's the one with a choice to make.
A) Come down on his asking price and come to an agreement with the Canadiens.
B) Hope for an offer sheet, which will almost certainly be matched.
C) Sit out a season and repeat the process next season.

Unless Bergevin is being offered a deal that equals what he'd get via an offer sheet there is no reason to trade him.

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01-26-2013, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
The pressure isn't really on Bergevin at all, its on Subban.

He's the one with a choice to make.
A) Come down on his asking price and come to an agreement with the Canadiens.
B) Hope for an offer sheet, which will almost certainly be matched.
C) Sit out a season and repeat the process next season.

Unless Bergevin is being offered a deal that equals what he'd get via an offer sheet there is no reason to trade him.
That only holds true if Subban is committed to remaining with the Habs. If Subban decides he's not willing to play for them again, under any circumstances, then the math changes:

Any assets they can get for Subban >>> Subban's rights

At that point it becomes a matter of which team will give up the most to get him. Nobody will offer sheet him, and if he becomes set on leaving he wouldn't sign an offer sheet anyway. That would be the easiest way for the Habs to lock him up for the long haul and really screw him over - see; Weber, Shea.

Bergevin is putting Subban into a position where he only has two options - to accept the current ****** offer, or to declare publicly that he'll never play for Montreal ever again. Not the shrewdest move for a GM to make. We'll see how it plays out.

Bergevin could always cave in. One side's going to have to, sooner or later. Subban's going to have to go to the KHL, too.

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01-26-2013, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
The pressure isn't really on Bergevin at all, its on Subban.

He's the one with a choice to make.
A) Come down on his asking price and come to an agreement with the Canadiens.
B) Hope for an offer sheet, which will almost certainly be matched.
C) Sit out a season and repeat the process next season.

Unless Bergevin is being offered a deal that equals what he'd get via an offer sheet there is no reason to trade him.
D) demand a trade
E) go to the KHL for a year or two

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01-26-2013, 11:40 PM
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D) demand a trade
E) go to the KHL for a year or two
He could go to the KHL but if he ever wants to come back his rights are still owned by the Canadiens.

He's also been very clear through the whole process that he's committed to reaching a deal with the Canadiens and doesn't want to play anywhere else so its unlikely he's going to turn around and publicy declare he'll never play there again. Bergevin has also said multiple times that he has no interest in trading Subban at all.

Another possible option would be arbitration. I know Subban can't file for it as he hasn't played enough seasons, but I'm not sure if the team is prevented for filing for it.

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01-27-2013, 10:59 AM
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Lets not lay off the D. Kronwall and Smith aside the rest are pretty brutal. I still believe we have the worst collection of D-men in the league. Toronto and NYI would giv eus a run for our money though. We have a top 10 PP no doubt once they figure it out. Our defense has no silver lining. We are stuck with what we have, the only player on that defense that is going to be get noticeably better over the years is Smith. Are people still expecting Big Rig, Kindl, Quincey etc. to magically turn some corner and be better than they are now? Doubt it, with the majority of our D what you see is what you get.

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01-27-2013, 11:19 AM
  #73
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The thing that will be a challenge for the Wings this season is figuring out their PP without the presence of a big point shot. Lidstrom has always been a huge threat in that way, and it always kept forwards honest; if they neglected Lidstrom, he would probably put it in the net.

Of course, the Wings have no Lidstrom now. We might point to Kronwall, who scored 15 goals last season, as the successor. The problem with that is Kronwall doesn't seem to like to be a primary shooting option. Beyond that, Brunner doesn't seem to have much of a long range shot, and we know that Datsyuk and Zetterberg do not. The result is a PP that is not particularly dangerous from long range.

What they'll do with this is hard to tell. Kronwall obviously could start shooting, but his 15 goals aside, I don't think he has the most threatening shot. He's also always been a pass-first guy and I don't think that'll change. So it seems like the Wings will eventually have to switch to more fluid puck movement, shying away from the screen-and-shoot we've seen for, well, ever. With Renney running the PP now, it'll be interesting to see how long it takes them to make the switch.

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01-27-2013, 11:24 AM
  #74
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I'm sending the intention into the universe that the Wings be themselves on the powerplay. Last game I saw the players reverting to only their set plays. It felt so stale, robotic. By "be themselves" they should keep possession, stay active, and make the best play possible to get a good shot on net. Simple. I've always thought shots from the point are more than acceptable- (ask Byfuglien how that can work this season). It doesn't matter, stay creative. We have the talent, quit trying to force plays and patterns.

Why can't teams realize they should get 10 shots every PP? Instead waiting, waiting for that perfect shot...just shoot it because it can create a rebound or further chaos.

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01-27-2013, 08:45 PM
  #75
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2 things I notice about the powerplay.

1. We try to force the cross-ice pass through sticks WAY too much. Especially datsyuk in this game vs chicago. He'd see Brunner on the other side and try to get it through a sea of sticks.

2. No one wants to shoot except Brunner. People have time with the puck and need to take a couple steps and let it fly as opposed to just constantly deferring to someone else. Also I'm surprised Brunner doesn't have more goals, he has a really good wrist shot. He had one in the game tonight on the PP where he had all the time in the world and I thought for sure he would net it.

p.s. I wish Franzen would look to shoot on the PP more.

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