Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
Jersey D-man for a Leaf winger has been done many times. From those threads I think the consensus was Tallinder is too old and Volchenkov's contract is too intimidating to take on. That leaves Mark Fayne.
For the Leafs the only winger that is remotely available is Clarke MacArthur. I like the Kulemin comparison to Zubrus from earlier in the thread, he's basically a mid-twenties version and there is some upside for more. With the injury to Lupul and the early emergence of Mike Kostka it makes a move less likely.
Still a Fayne/MacArthur scenario would probably have Nonis listening. That kind of swap was hated by Devils fans, so I don't expect any of them to even think twice about it. It's the only move that makes any kind of sense for the Leafs though at this point in time, IMO.
Henrik Tallinder + 3rd 2013
1 year remaining at $3,375,000
34 year old Top 4 veteran defender.
TOR gives:
Nikolai Kulemin
1 year remaining at $2,800,000
26 year old Top 9 winger.
New Jersey gains a youngish winger for the top three lines where depth is needed. Coming off a down year stats wise, but is good in all three zones and fills the hole left by Ponikarovsky. It is likely that at this age, Kulemin has maxed out, or is close to his potential.
Toronto gains a stable veteran two-way defender than can shore up the top 6. Is coming off a downish (unpredictable injury) year, but can be seen as a victim of New Jersey's strength in depth on the blue line. The pick adds a little sweetener considering the difference in age.
No need for Tallinder unlike Kulemin who we are expecting a bounce back year from this year.
if we`re being honest, the proposal isnt awful; however, the timing is all wrong (hence the backlash).
kulemins been one of the best leafs (if not the best) over 4 games. kule could have a 0 goal season and still impress quite frankly. toronto is not a playoff team this year (unless the goaltending improves). with lupul out leaf fans are even more pessimistic. and so picking up a veteran defender doesnt help us.
more then anything: the leafs have no one coming through the system that can replace what kule does. at least non that we`ve seen. so the fan base is fairly attached to his uniqueness within the organization.
Jersey D-man for a Leaf winger has been done many times. From those threads I think the consensus was Tallinder is too old and Volchenkov's contract is too intimidating to take on. That leaves Mark Fayne.
For the Leafs the only winger that is remotely available is Clarke MacArthur. I like the Kulemin comparison to Zubrus from earlier in the thread, he's basically a mid-twenties version and there is some upside for more. With the injury to Lupul and the early emergence of Mike Kostka it makes a move less likely.
Still a Fayne/MacArthur scenario would probably have Nonis listening. That kind of swap was hated by Devils fans, so I don't expect any of them to even think twice about it. It's the only move that makes any kind of sense for the Leafs though at this point in time, IMO.
This exactly. People think they can buy low on Kulie because of his 7 goal season but we still value him highly for his play without the puck.
Let me just preface this by saying I'm not advocating the OP's trade, it's highway robbery in favor of New Jersey. Nor am I terribly fond of Tallinder. But your attitude, in addition to simply being wrong, has forced me to address this post.
If you you know statistics as well as you claim, then you know you can't just present numbers without context, especially in cases where you compare highly situational player metrics vs. team metrics. In Tallinder's case, three coaches and a life-threatening injury in two seasons.
In 2011, it was a tale of two seasons, as I'm sure you remember. New Jersey had a -35 goal differential. It's quite disingenuous to pull out loaded plus/minus stats on a team with the 2nd lowest GF total in over a decade (171). Especially when other well-respected two-way players like Travis Zajac, Patrik Elias, Zach Parise, Andy Greene (-23!), and Dainius Zubrus were all as bad or worse in terms of +/- (of the 22 Devils with +20 GP, only seven were plus players). It's only natural the players with the most ice-time are going to accrue massive minuses playing on a meager offensive team that's only above-average at defense.
Despite that, in the 50 games under Lemaire, Tallinder's GVT and CORSI were amongst the best in hockey.
In 2012 he had some lingering minor ailments that he played through, in addition to learning a brand new system. Once again, +/- is misleading because half of the team was butchered by shorthanded goals (again, only 9/23 players with +20 GP were plus players).
And then he got blood clots and literally wasn't allowed to get off his couch for months.
Not to mention Tallinder isn't even an offensive defenseman. He plays on the shutdown pair and occasionally got a shift on the PP (where we wanted a good skater that can get back and cover for Kovy's turnovers, though he rarely plays now that we've acquired Zidlicky). So I don't know why you're bringing points production up.
You preface objection to my attitude and accuracy by stating the trade is distorted in valuation...Which is in fact, my contention. The vague application of statistics was intentional given the informality of the thread. If the OP's thread required an appropriate and comprehensive statistical analysis, one would have been provided. That it wasn't, well, deduce according to preference.
When and if urgency presents itself in like situations, please, correct when and where necessary. But next time, in addition to providing appropriate correction, do so in authentic objection by excluding a preface of agreement to the counter claim. It lends credence to the notion that you actually have a substantive disagreement and not merely a frivolous one.
If my attitude towards another poster's lazy reasoning offended your sense of comradery in obtuse characterizations...Mea culpa.
You preface objection to my attitude and accuracy by stating the trade is distorted in valuation...Which is in fact, my contention. The vague application of statistics was intentional given the informality of the thread. If the OP's thread required an appropriate and comprehensive statistical analysis, one would have been provided. That it wasn't, well, deduce according to preference.
When and if urgency presents itself in like situations, please, correct when and where necessary. But next time, in addition to providing appropriate correction, do so in authentic objection by excluding a preface of agreement to the counter claim. It lends credence to the notion that you actually have a substantive disagreement and not merely a frivolous one.
If my attitude towards another poster's lazy reasoning offended your sense of comradery in obtuse characterizations...Mea culpa.
It's cool to be clever (trust me - I know), but points can, and often are also awarded for readability. Are you a paralegal by chance?
To the OP, from a statistical point of view Kulemin may not be regarded as highly around the league as he is in Leafs land, but he is a defensively responsible player who's willingness to 'muck it out' for the puck creates scoring chances for his linemates. He is on my short list of players that I would be devastated to see go.
Agreed. I don't think he does. But he is most definitely better than the majority of defenders on the Leafs blue line. Not even sure if that's debatable. My apologies if the Leafs intend to continue building.
I don't even want to see Tallinder traded. He's a very good #4 on NJ. Problem is, so is Volchenkov, Zidlicky, Larsson and Harrold can play effective #6 minutes. Tallinder plays a skillset that can be replaced by Larsson, Greene, Fayne and to an extent Salvador.
I understand that Kulemin is highly regarded by Leafs fans. Two years off a 30 goal season. But the fact that he was 7th in TOI/G for the Leafs last season (not to mention only 7 goals) does somewhat lower his trade value.
That is exactly why Toronto doesn't make the deal. We believe he can regain his former numbers, and value that higher than 34 yr old defenseman. Especially considering Tallinder doesn't garentee us playoffs.
I do admit that this trade is in NJ's favour. I didn't realise that he was held in such high regard by the Leafs. A bit like Zubrus for the Devils.
He's pretty high in the eyes of leaf nation quite a bit. He's valuable, even when he was having an off year statistically he's was without a doubt one of our most complete forwards.
As for the trade itself, I respectfully decline. As another stated, we aren't in that area where we trade young talent for veterans, not yet.
That is exactly why Toronto doesn't make the deal. We believe he can regain his former numbers, and value that higher than 34 yr old defenseman. Especially considering Tallinder doesn't garentee us playoffs.
Its not even that I believe he will regain his former numbers. He probably wont score 30 goals again, atleast not consistently. But his board play and defensive game make him very valuable on its own.
If I'm wrong and Kulie becomes a consistent 25-30 goal scorer great! But really that would just be a bonus his real value lies in the rest of his game.
It's cool to be clever (trust me - I know), but points can, and often are also awarded for readability. Are you a paralegal by chance?
To the OP, from a statistical point of view Kulemin may not be regarded as highly around the league as he is in Leafs land, but he is a defensively responsible player who's willingness to 'muck it out' for the puck creates scoring chances for his linemates. He is on my short list of players that I would be devastated to see go.
I suppose for some it might be...but it depends on the source gifting the praise.
Paralegal? I was writing to a somewhat known audience of one. Yes, public thread, etc, etc...
Glad to read another fan who views Kulemin's worth as something valuable outside one season soaked in personal tragedy.
(trust me - I know), but points can, and often are also awarded for readability. Are you a paralegal by chance?
I was writing to a somewhat known audience of one. Yes, public thread, etc, etc...
