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P.K. Subban Thread - MK VIII - 'Week-end of Angst' Edition

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01-26-2013, 11:28 AM
  #351
JustAHabFan
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Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
Wow these threads are amazing. My guess is that there is very little to do with "attitude" stuff because if that was the case then the Habs would look to trade him rather than re-sign him since why would you want to sign a player to a deal regardless of how good he is if he's such a "cancer" in the room. I mean you would still want to but it wouldn't be a question of length.

Anyways, what a lot of this boils down to is money. As it stands right now, the Habs have about 10.5 million to sign 8 players + pk. While there aren't really any big name players to re-sign, most of that money will be used since one of those guys is Desharnais (2.5-3 million), a backup goalie (1-1.5 million) and a few 4th line/depth guys (between 650-1 mill each) and now you're at 60ish million with 4ish million to sign Subban. On top of that, the escrow is going to be set pretty high.

Just for comparison to the other rfa's New Jersey and Dallas had about 30 million in free cap space for next year before signing their guys whereas New York had about the same as Montreal.

Not only that, all of the guys who have been brought up were signed under an old economic system and aren't 100% comparable. Unless you want to lower their salary by 12.5% and then you'd get somewhat of a comparable.

For p.k., the best option is to sign a short year deal at 2 years and then once the NHL economics are settled, go for the big bucks because it's more than likely the cap will be going up after next year where there will be more freedom for the Habs to offer him a better contract.
Explain to me why we spent 4M for Prust and Bouillon if we are in cap hell.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:30 AM
  #352
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Tell me how many years is the 5 million dollar deal and I'll reconsider.
The guy is a 5 million dollar player right now. So even at a 1 year deal for 5 mil he's worth it. If it's 7 years at 35 it probably works out really well for us.

You are highly unlikely to find a FA of his quality anywhere AND the guy is 23 one the way up. Even if you found somebody with his skill set it's going to cost you a lot more than 5 to bring him here.

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I'm just not 100% set on giving this kid 5 million dollars. I'm not even sure how I feel if its a long term deal at 5 million or short term at 5 million. Just putting a price tag like that.. on him.. MAN it's going to put alot of pressure on you for the future.
Why? We're not talking 7+ mil a year. 5 mil isn't crazy. Hell Kaberle makes almost that much.

5 mil is very fair for what he brings.

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01-26-2013, 11:30 AM
  #353
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This deal - what ever it is. Will probably be the deal we will all discuss when talking about MB's work as a GM.

ALA Gainey and Gomez.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:31 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Explain to me why we spent 4M for Prust and Bouillon if we are in cap hell.
Because players of this dimension of play were badly needed in Montreal?

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01-26-2013, 11:31 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Let's just say this is the case and your source is decent, let's see some proposal.
I'm one to not want to trade him but if I had to, my asking price would be high.
So from what I ear, the Flyers, Rangers,Florida, Toronto,Islanders,Detroit, Oilers, Nashville and Columbus are all teams that could have high interest in Subban.
Forget it Toronto and the Rags, no way I deal with them.

So From the Flyers, it has to be Couturier but since I want a defender coming back, it would have to be a package. Couturier-Coburn/Grossmann for PK-Eller? This I would consider.

From the Panthers land, Gudbranson but Florida would need to had but what?Picks?

Islanders....Nino plus or Strome, still want a dman coming back but who? Hamonic? not sure if I want to deal here.

Detroit has a big need but nothing there interest me, sure Datsyuk and company would but highly doughtfull they are moved plus I still want a Dman coming back. Ericsson?

Oilers have tone of youth to offer but like most, I want a damn coming back. Also I just don't see a trade here. It's not like they are going to move that core.

NAshville has nothing of interest for me aside from Weber.

Columbus....not sure what they could give since losing Nash to the Rags. Murray is out and I dought they move him since they picked him 2nd this last june.

I just can see or find a fit in trading Subban.
Doesn't mean the Habs - MTL wants to trade Subban, they just want to assess if he can fit into the MB mold and at the same time knock him down a peg and see how he reacts. The low ball offer has everything to do with assessing PK's character.

Trading PK would be an unmitigated disaster for this franchise not necessarily on the ice but from an organizational pov. Another talent the Habs were not able to harness only to blossom somewhere else. There have been too many in the last 20 years.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #356
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Would be okay, but very reason why the Flyers would target Subban isn't that Subban's is a great player, but that they also have a lot of holes on that D -- holes that are made even worse with Meszaros out for a while.

A no.1 D-Men is more important than a no.3 D-Men... but when the problem is the lack of a Top-6 D on a team, you don't trade one to get one.
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Indeed. Flyers aren't gonna deal a D to us.

Another team could, in exchange of Eller, for example.
It's just doesn't make sense for us...no matter what or a team dealing with us.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Because players of this dimension of play were badly needed in Montreal?
And then we turn around and try to squeeze PK?

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Marc Staal signed for 4 years, 3.975mil per, when the cap was 59.4mil. That's the comp I'd be looking at from the Habs' POV.
4 years would bring PK right to UFA. That would not be good.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
I would have signed him long term as I said I think in part 6 of this messy thread.. but I can understand the habs thinking in wanting a bridge deal to be honest, what I can't understand is 2.5 million per year.

Out of all the bridge deals signed lately by the Habs, Price was the lowest at 2.75, Patches, Gorges, Pleks all signed around 3.1 - 3.3 million if I remember correctly. I don't get why 2.5 for PK.
No. Here is the list of what Montreal Canadiens players playing in the NHL got after their ELC expired since 2007:

A Kostistyn 3.25M x 3 years
Carey Price 2.75M x 2 years
M. Komisarek 1.7M x 2 years
Chris Higgins 1.7M x 2 years
M. Pacioretty 1.625M x 2 years
Tom Plekanec 1.6M x 2 years
Lars Eller 1.325M x 2 years
Josh Gorges 1.1M x 3 years
Ryan O'Byrne 942k x 3 years
D. Desharnais 850k x 2 years
G. Latendresse 803k x 1 year
Jaroslav Halak 775k x 2 years
Maxim Lapierre 688k x 2 years
Ryan White 625k x 1 year
Tom Pyatt 500k x 1 year
S Kostitsyn NOT QUALIFIED


Last edited by BaseballCoach: 01-26-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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Old
01-26-2013, 11:34 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
It's just doesn't make sense for us...no matter what or a team dealing with us.
If we can't sign Subban, it makes perfect sense for us.

We aren't gonna get a Subban back, but we certainly can get a solid shutdown D who can play alongside Gorges.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:35 AM
  #361
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Sure.

If anything, I'd seriously consider a deal sending, say, Simon Despres (not that I absolutely want Despres, but that's the first name I thought of that would reasonably make sense) here for Lars Eller.

(I mean, IF Subban ends up traded or whatever).

Despres doesn't replace Subban, but it gives us a young D with size who can move the puck and who's already Top-6 material.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:36 AM
  #362
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I am a black man, and I'm much annoyed about the stupid racism claims. Please stop with the ignorant comments. You don't know Bergevin, so please do not judge him by his and PK's skin colour.

With that said, if Bergevin refuses to increase the numbers on the rumored offer, yikes. That wouldn't be right, PK deserves about four million a year Imo.

Nevertheless, we don't know all the details, hopefully they agree on a deal asap.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:36 AM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Explain to me why we spent 4M for Prust and Bouillon if we are in cap hell.
Because those guys were signed when the cap was going to be at 70.3 million for the following year and who knows what afterwards. Whereas now the cap yes is at 70.3 this year but next year it's at 64.3 million. No one said we're in cap hell. Just that we don't have tons of cap space to sign a long term deal right now because any long term deal will have a higher cap hit than the actual salary he will get.

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01-26-2013, 11:36 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
No. Here is the list of what Montreal Canadiens players playing in the NHL got after their ELC expired since 2007:

A Kostistyn 3.25M x 3 years
Carey Price 2.75M x 2 years
M. Komisarek 1.7M x 2 years
Chris Higgins 1.7M x 3 years
M. Pacioretty 1.625M x 2 years
Tom Plekanec 1.6M x 2 years
Lars Eller 1.325M x 2 years
Josh Gorges 1.1M x 3 years
Ryan O'Byrne 942k x 3 years
D. Desharnais 850k x 2 years
G. Latendresse 803k x 1 year
Jaroslav Halak 775k x 2 years
Maxim Lapierre 688k x 2 years
Ryan White 625k x 1 year
Tom Pyatt 500k x 1 year
S Kostitsyn NOT QUALIFIED
Kostitsyn: Lost for nothing
Komisarek: Lost for nothing
Higgins: Traded for GOMEZ
O'Byrne: Dealt for Bournival
Latendresse: Traded for Pouliot lost for nothing.
Halak: Dealt for Eller
Lapierre: Dealt for 4th
Pyatt: Lost for nothing.
S. Kost: Lost for nothing.

MY GOD our management has been incompetent for so long.

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01-26-2013, 11:36 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The guy is a 5 million dollar player right now. So even at a 1 year deal for 5 mil he's worth it. If it's 7 years at 35 it probably works out really well for us.

You are highly unlikely to find a FA of his quality anywhere AND the guy is 23 one the way up. Even if you found somebody with his skill set it's going to cost you a lot more than 5 to bring him here.


Why? We're not talking 7+ mil a year. 5 mil isn't crazy. Hell Kaberle makes almost that much.

5 mil is very fair for what he brings.
I see your point and I agree with it. Hell I agree on every point.
I hate that you use Kaberle has a comparison, because you're right. Even thought he was ridiculously overpaid. It's a good 1 on 1 comparison of market deals.

I just don't know, as a fan only, if a 5 million dollar deal works out for the best of the teams interest in the future. RIGHT NOW. I don't know if I'm happy with it. I think 3.5 million makes a whole lot more sense for the two sides. It makes it alot more easy for me as a fan (which means nothing) to deal with.

I just want to say, I don't think PK would decline a 5 million dollar deal.. but I don't see how signing a 8 million dollars/2 years (3.5 each year) isn't better. After two years, his value will be even higher. He can even get Erik Karlson money at that point.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #366
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Doesn't mean the Habs - MTL wants to trade Subban, they just want to assess if he can fit into the MB mold and at the same time knock him down a peg and see how he reacts. The low ball offer has everything to do with assessing PK's character.
Making one of your best young player hold out to "assess his character" would serve more to assess Bergevin's intelligence than PK's character.

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01-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
And then we turn around and try to squeeze PK?
I guess. Don't know MB's gameplan.

Prust and Bouillon's style of players were really needed, with or without Subban. The end. Infer what you want.

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01-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
4 years would bring PK right to UFA. That would not be good.
Agreed, but that's not the debate.

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01-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
4 years would bring PK right to UFA. That would not be good.
I wonder how much this poisons the well for Subban. Does it matter if four years brings him to UFA? It's not like he'd stay anyway.

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01-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Kostitsyn: Lost for nothing
Komisarek: Lost for nothing
Higgins: Traded for GOMEZ
O'Byrne: Dealt for Bournival
Latendresse: Traded for Pouliot lost for nothing.
Halak: Dealt for Eller
Lapierre: Dealt for 4th
Pyatt: Lost for nothing.
S. Kost: Lost for nothing.

MY GOD our management has been incompetent for so long.
we know this, it's posted like once a week

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:38 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Because players of this dimension of play were badly needed in Montreal?
As opposed to first pairing two way defenders?

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01-26-2013, 11:39 AM
  #372
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Kostitsyn: Lost for nothing
Komisarek: Lost for nothing
Higgins: Traded for GOMEZ
O'Byrne: Dealt for Bournival
Latendresse: Traded for Pouliot lost for nothing.
Halak: Dealt for Eller
Lapierre: Dealt for 4th
Pyatt: Lost for nothing.
S. Kost: Lost for nothing.

MY GOD our management has been incompetent for so long.
Sad facts.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:39 AM
  #373
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Originally Posted by 76ftw View Post
we know this, it's posted like once a week
or every time the Habs lose.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:40 AM
  #374
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As opposed to first pairing two way defenders?
We do have Markov, right?

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01-26-2013, 11:40 AM
  #375
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or every time the Habs lose.
Asset management is essential.

We are continuing to manage assets poorly even under a new regime.

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