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P.K. Subban Thread - MK VIII - 'Week-end of Angst' Edition

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01-26-2013, 11:52 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Or, more to the point, Prust is more important to this team than Subban?
Prust is more important because he was a UFA and the team was begging for him to play for them. Subban is an RFA so the team knows they can sit him and keep him from playing hockey until he decides himself that he wants to leave the team.

In the eyes of many here, it's better to overpay for free agents you need than keep the homegrown talent you have.

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01-26-2013, 11:54 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Okay, my argument is nonexistent cool, so you are saying it's a good idea to build our defense around a 34 year old Andrei Markov whose ability to hold up, while clearly better than some have stated, is still in doubt?
Like it or not, Andrei Markov is still there for 2 more years, minimum. Obviously, it's a risk, and we'd be way better off WITH Subban in the lineup, but he's not there for now.

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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
You really think having Gorges as the second best D-man is a great idea? Is putting Boullion on the PP and PK exciting to you?
It's not a "bad" idea by any lenght. He's certainly proven to be damn good.

Bouillon on PP and PK is unoptimal, for sure. But having him in the lineup is certainly a good thing; he brings quite a physical side that was only there with Emelin and, up to a point, with Subban.

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Or, more to the point, Prust is more important to this team than Subban?
On the short term? Actually yes. We had NO player like Prust, our 4th line was composed of frikkin' spare parts. For now, our Defense seems to hold without Subban.

Mid-Long term? Nah.

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01-26-2013, 11:54 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Prust is more important because he was a UFA and the team was begging for him to play for them. Subban is an RFA so the team knows they can abuse him and keep him from playing hockey until he decides himself that he wants to leave the team.

In the eyes of many here, it's better to overpay for free agents you need than keep the homegrown talent you have.
Prust was a nice pickup, but even Rangers fans who love him say they are glad he wasn't resigned for that price. Sure we needed a player like that more than they did, but Prust seems to have been Bergevin's number one priority.

And it's sad how homegrown players are taken for granted. How many times have people proposed getting rid of not only Subban but also Markov, Plekanec and even Price?

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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Like it or not, Andrei Markov is still there for 2 more years, minimum. Obviously, it's a risk, and we'd be way better off WITH Subban in the lineup, but he's not there for now.
I like it, but what I'd like more is Markov AND Subban in the lineup. They are the two defenseman this team have that make the guy they play with better.


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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
It's not a "bad" idea by any lenght. He's certainly proven to be damn good.

Bouillon on PP and PK is unoptimal, for sure. But having him in the lineup is certainly a good thing; he brings quite a physical side that was only there with Emelin and, up to a point, with Subban.
Gorges has proven to be reliable but in the small sample size so far this season has not had the same effect on the guy he played with that Subban or Markov have. Subban made Gill look like a first pairing defenseman. Boullion's physical side is nice..as a 6th defender. On the PK he has been a disaster.


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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
On the short term? Actually yes. We had NO player like Prust, our 4th line was composed of frikkin' spare parts. For now, our Defense seems to hold without Subban.

Mid-Long term? Nah.
Our PK is suffering without Subban, but we have been lucky enough to play some of the worst teams in the league so far. And yes, Prust is an upgrade, but an upgrade that plays more than 20 minutes a game in Subban than one that plays 10 or so has a bigger impact.


Last edited by Et le But: 01-26-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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Old
01-26-2013, 11:56 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Didn't read the whole thread, that goes as fast as any threads I,ve seen in such a long time, but people who can read french...read Martin Leclerc's article. Subban has nothing to do with Price and Pacioretty. Nothing, and not even close. And I'd personnally go as far as to think that putting Subban at Price or Pacioretty's level as far as "having to sign a bridge contract" is totally insulting.

If I'm Subban, I'd start looking for an offersheet. Or I ask the Habs to sign for 1 year. You want a bridge contract? Here's one.
Maybe the offer sheet's aren't piling up on Meehans desk. I'm not sure Bergevin would have a problem with a 1 year deal either. With Markov in the lineup his ice time would decrease and so would his value in front of an arbitrator (he would be eligible for arbitration next year I think). I'm not sure this is something PK would want to do.

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01-26-2013, 11:57 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
Offersheet in the 5M range would be a 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
No...an offer sheet of $3,364,391 to $5,046,585 yields a 1st and a 3rd....an offer sheet of $5,046,585 to $6,728,781 gets a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

If he signs an offer sheet fo $5m you're not getting a lot back (especially if it's a good team that ends up picking late in the draft).

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...e-offer-sheets

Would Montreal trade him to another team for a 1st and a 3rd? Probably not. They're playing a pretty dangerous game here.


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01-26-2013, 11:58 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I like how quiet Bergevin is during those negociations; he looks professional.
If we lose PK in a offer sheet or a trade, does MB look professional to you. Gainey has been classy and professional but also has been a bad GM at the same time.

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01-26-2013, 11:59 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
So the Habs are still holding firm on a 2 year deal, roughly $5 million total. It was reported earlier that both sides were 2.5 - 3 million apart.. Is the 2.5 - 3 million more that Subban wants on the total amount or per year I wonder?
Sounds like Subban might have been asking 6 years at $5M. That is not overly ambitious, if you ask me. It is closer to what the consensus of posters here seem to be at, even those "against " PK until now, than MB's now public offer is.

If the Habs get him for 6 years at 4.5M I think it is a bargain. He is arguably more valuable than Pacioretty, and event hat contract is seen a a good one for the team.

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01-26-2013, 12:01 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Prust was a nice pickup, but even Rangers fans who love him say they are glad he wasn't resigned for that price. Sure we needed a player like that more than they did, but Prust seems to have been Bergevin's number one priority.

And it's sad how homegrown players are taken for granted. How many times have people proposed getting rid of not only Subban but also Markov, Plekanec and even Price?
Isn't that the case for every UFA that signs here? We heard the same about Gio and Cammy as well. We have to overpay.

I hate to speculate but that offer by MB is so bad you have to wonder how much he and Therrien really care about having PK on this team.

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01-26-2013, 12:01 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
If we lose PK in a offer sheet or a trade, does MB look professional to you. Gainey has been classy and professional but also has been a bad GM at the same time.
It depends what MB gets in a trade and what the offer sheet is. He always has the option to match it. If a team is stupid enough to offer PK 6.7+ than MB can take the 4 first round picks. Relax, Bergevin is in the drivers seat here.

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01-26-2013, 12:01 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
I am a black man, and I'm much annoyed about the stupid racism claims. Please stop with the ignorant comments. You don't know Bergevin, so please do not judge him by his and PK's skin colour.

With that said, if Bergevin refuses to increase the numbers on the rumored offer, yikes. That wouldn't be right, PK deserves about four million a year Imo.

Nevertheless, we don't know all the details, hopefully they agree on a deal asap.
Thank you. Those ridiculous racism claims irk me to no end.

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01-26-2013, 12:02 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Kostitsyn: Lost for nothing
Komisarek: Lost for nothing
Higgins: Traded for GOMEZ
O'Byrne: Dealt for Bournival
Latendresse: Traded for Pouliot lost for nothing.
Halak: Dealt for Eller
Lapierre: Dealt for 4th
Pyatt: Lost for nothing.
S. Kost: Lost for nothing.

MY GOD our management has been incompetent for so long.
Well at least McD isn't on that list because... oh wait.

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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
With the number of respected journalists now publishing the offer, I believe that is is 2 years, 2.2 then 2.9M.

If I am Subban, I take 1 year $2.2M just ot get on the ice, go out and have a great year, and then file for arbitration next year, after entertaining offer sheets for 10 days.

If the Habs refuse to give him a one-year deal, and no one in the whole league is making an offer sheet, then we have a Tim Raines situation, and Don Meehan and Donald Fehr should file a grievance.

This is now on Geoff Molson to fix.
The team shouldn't let it go that far. I can't believe it's gone as far as it has.
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Losing Komi for nothing. If he had stayed with Markov his career might not have tail-spinned. But at the very least if we knew he was gonna go, we could've traded his rights.
Komi was great. Then he got beat up by Lucic and was never, ever the same. There was a marked difference from that point on.

He came back and was horrible. Didn't have the edge anymore and just looked whipped. I was actually expecting a bounce back year from him and then he signed with the Leafs. I remember thinking how brutal it was that we let him walk away but in retrospect it turned out to be a blessing.
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Dont get me wrong, the way Gainey managed those assets was a complete failure.
Should've revamped back in '07. Koivu, Souray... it hurts just to think about it. All the players we let walk away for zero. We should be so much further ahead than we are.

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Old
01-26-2013, 12:02 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
By several accounts Timmins was completely horrified/shocked that it happened. Does that sound like someone who was consulted?
Everything that I've seen and heard from MB leads me to believe that not only is he highly intelligent, but has purposely surrounded himself with other sound hockey minds.

I believe he would not act recklessly when faced with a vital decision like the Subban one.

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01-26-2013, 12:02 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Who needs good tires when you already have 1?

What a stupid argument.

The team is better the more top tier defenseman they have.
I'm sorry to have to tell you this..

But hockey players aren't tires. Shocking, isn't it?!


Yes, the team is better the more Top Tier defenseman they have. Yes, the team is better had we Subban in the lineup. Yes, the optimal thing for us would be to HAVE Subban.

But the team is also better to have Prust, Bouillon and Armstrong in the lineup.

You have to ask yourself: what marginal increase in efficiency do the team get out of Prust/Bouillon compared to the marginal increase in efficiency we get out of Subban?

Right now, I'd say Prust/Bouillon bring more to the team than Subban could. Simply because they bring something we did not had, while Subban brings something that we have; just more of it and a bit sideways.

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01-26-2013, 12:05 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
I am not denying we need Prust and Bouilon, but as a GM you have to know what cap space is available to you. You have to plan for the cap space in the new CBA. You have to determine the priorities of signing your players. ATM, MB did a very poor job relating to what I just mentioned.
Based on the way both have played so far I'd say he's looking pretty good actually. Prust is bringing something extremely valuable to the team and is worth every penny so far and for 1.5 mil Frank's not so shabby either.

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01-26-2013, 12:06 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Sounds like Subban might have been asking 6 years at $5M. That is not overly ambitious, if you ask me. It is closer to what the consensus of posters here seem to be at, even those "against " PK until now, than MB's now public offer is.

If the Habs get him for 6 years at 4.5M I think it is a bargain. He is arguably more valuable than Pacioretty, and event hat contract is seen a a good one for the team.
How can you even entertain the thought that the Habs might sign PK to 6 years for $4.5 per when we just got confirmation that MB isn't budging off of 2yrs/5mil.

We aren't in August waiting for the season to start. It's a short season and we are 3 games in. IMO, this lowball offer seems like more than just a negotiation tactic. Then again, maybe this good start makes MB feel like he has more leverage.

I am starting to feel like Bobby Mac was right

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01-26-2013, 12:06 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Right now, I'd say Prust/Bouillon bring more to the team than Subban could. Simply because they bring something we did not had, while Subban brings something that we have; just more of it and a bit sideways.
Opinions like this are scary because they seem to imply the puck gets carried by grit and truculence and not by skill.

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01-26-2013, 12:06 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Price signed a bridge contract (after a heated contract negotiation) and then he signed a beneficial deal both from the player and the team perspective. What you are describing is the path 95% of the players followed. Such an outcome (Subbanís progression and performance in the upcoming 1-3 years giving him an edge for his next contract negotiation) would be more than normal imo; it would be optimal for both parties.
How is it optimal for the habs to pay more money in 2 years than they would if they signed PK long term right now ?

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So the season started a week ago... how many more weeks will Subban spend sitting at home?
That's mostly for Bergevin to decide.

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PK, despite the general impression given by his recent interview with Stubbs (The Gazette Ė It felt like watching a freakin' infomercial!), is no Crosby so I donít see why the Canadiens should completely overlook the fact that he is a RFA with no rights to arbitration.
You are living in the past. Teams don't own rights to players until they are 31 anymore.

Look at what the rest of the NHL is doing :

Taylor Hall
Tyler Myers
Jordan Eberle
John Carlson
Jamie Benn
Marc Staal
Anze Kopitar
Travis Zajac
Evander Kane
Cam Barker

All signed to 4+ years deal out of their ELC contracts. None of them have been any more impressive than PK.

I've intentionally omitted Kane, Stamkos, Toews, Karlsson, Doughty and some other big names just because they had a higher standing than PK when they signed long term deals after their ELC.


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If we open the door now and give him a blank check, our Canadiens will fall in a cap related hell as soon as guys like Galchenyuk, Beaulieu... reach the same stage.
This is ridiculous. If you can't see why then I don't know what to say.


Quote:
As mentioned by Josh Gorges, captain material according to most hfboarders, a guy in his situation does not have a lot of leverage so he should do what 95% of the players did in the same situation: say yes to a transition contract and then aim for better terms.
Hehe, the same Gorges who takes it upon himself to ridicule a former teammate by exposing private conversations to the medias during the lockout ?

Or is it the same Gorges who felt he had the right to give his opinion on what PK should do in these negotiations ?

Quite the future captain. If that guy ends up captaining the habs we will have one of the worst one in the league because the guy is neither a star player nor someone whose example you should follow.

Quote:
Luckily for us, Diaz, Emelin, Bouillon and, to a lesser extent, even Kaberle, stepped their game up a notch and are picking up the slack while he sits at home watching this 48 games sprint to the playoffs unfolds.
Luckily for Bergevin.

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I really hope he is not looking for a lot more money than what Price received in the same situation. And, just to be clear, I really hope Bergevin is offering him more than what Price received 2 years ago!
What ?

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01-26-2013, 12:06 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
No...an offer sheet $3,364,391 to $5,046,585 yields a 1st and a 3rd....an offer sheet of $5,046,585 to $6,728,781 gets a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

If he signs an offer sheet fo $5m you're not getting a lot back (especially if it's a good team that ends up picking late in the draft).

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...e-offer-sheets

Would Montreal trade him to another team for a 1st and a 3rd? Probably not. They're playing a pretty dangerous game here.
As was pointed out to me last night in the Subban thread on the trade board here these are compensation numbers based on a 70.2M cap and they're no longer valid.

Here's the chart that was posted last night in that thread with rough numbers on what the new compensation numbers would be on the right with the lower cap.


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01-26-2013, 12:08 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
It depends what MB gets in a trade and what the offer sheet is. He always has the option to match it. If a team is stupid enough to offer PK 6.7+ than MB can take the 4 first round picks. Relax, Bergevin is in the drivers seat here.
Driver seat to mediocrity? The offersheet may come in at 5M for 5 year. This won't give us enough draft picks and we are forced to match it. We do a trade, other team will rip MB off because they can be patient and wait. So just let PK sit?

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01-26-2013, 12:09 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
As was pointed out to me last night in the Subban thread on the trade board here these are compensation numbers based on a 70.2M cap and they're no longer valid.

Here's the chart that was posted last night in that thread with rough numbers on what the new compensation numbers would be on the right with the lower cap.

Subban signs a five year, $3.3M per year offer sheet. Bergevin walks with a second round pick because it wasn't his bridge.

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01-26-2013, 12:09 PM
  #421
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Opinions like this are scary because they seem to imply the puck gets carried by grit and truculence and not by skill.
And what the **** are you talking about?

Without Subban, this team has no skill whatsoever?

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01-26-2013, 12:10 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Driver seat to mediocrity? The offersheet may come in at 5M for 5 year. This won't give us enough draft picks and we are forced to match it. We do a trade, other team will rip MB off because they can be patient and wait. So just let PK sit?
Then he just signs him at 5M for 5 years. No problem there.

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01-26-2013, 12:11 PM
  #423
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Renaud Lavoie reports the Habs are offering 5 million over two years to Subban. 2.2 million first year, 2.9 for next season.

That's not an offer, that's an insult.

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01-26-2013, 12:12 PM
  #424
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As was pointed out to me last night in the Subban thread on the trade board here these are compensation numbers based on a 70.2M cap and they're no longer valid.
The cap is still 70.2 M. It's next year that it goes down.

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01-26-2013, 12:13 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Driver seat to mediocrity? The offersheet may come in at 5M for 5 year. This won't give us enough draft picks and we are forced to match it. We do a trade, other team will rip MB off because they can be patient and wait. So just let PK sit?
RFA don;t have that much negotiating powers. They can refuse to show up to camp and not sign the offers on the table or wait for offer sheets. If those offer sheets don't come they either sign what's on the table or stay at home. I think this is what PK is realizing now since MB is not budging and he has no interesting offer sheets being presented.

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