HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

P.K. Subban Thread - MK VIII - 'Week-end of Angst' Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-26-2013, 12:23 PM
  #451
pine*
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montréal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,337
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
He cannot "demand" a trade. He can request one, and can threaten to no sign until he gets one. But he cannot "demand" one.
Don't be a smartass, you know what he meant.

pine* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:24 PM
  #452
PricePkPatch*
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,482
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
Don't be a smartass, you know what he meant.
Well.. My point was more about Subban cannot actually force a trade if MB doesn't want to trade him. Therefore, it doesn't make to use the word "demand", which carries actual power.

PricePkPatch* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:25 PM
  #453
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 40,960
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
What I don't understand is why a one year deal hasn't been thrown into the mix yet. Haven't heard anything about it. Makes the most sense to me. You're at an impasse. Take a one year, play until the team is done and talk again. Now you have three years until Subban is UFA eligible.
Maybe a one year offer has been made. That's the frustrating part about this whole thing, we can only speculate.

Hate what I'm hearing about the numbers though. Multiple sources are saying that we're offering 5 mil for two years. And that's absolutely ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
I guess the threat is Subban taking the team to arbitration.
I think he has to go at least one more year before he's eligible.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:25 PM
  #454
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,774
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I'm sorry to have to tell you this..

But hockey players aren't tires. Shocking, isn't it?!


Yes, the team is better the more Top Tier defenseman they have. Yes, the team is better had we Subban in the lineup. Yes, the optimal thing for us would be to HAVE Subban.

But the team is also better to have Prust, Bouillon and Armstrong in the lineup.

You have to ask yourself: what marginal increase in efficiency do the team get out of Prust/Bouillon compared to the marginal increase in efficiency we get out of Subban?

Right now, I'd say Prust/Bouillon bring more to the team than Subban could. Simply because they bring something we did not had, while Subban brings something that we have; just more of it and a bit sideways
.

False premise. False interpretation of facts.

You know, unlike the Caps and Panthers, some teams, the teams we would actually want to beat to be among the best, those teams have more than one good offensive line. With those teams, having two #1 defensemen isn't a luxury, it's the single biggest upgrade one can have to go up against those teams. And Gorges isn't that 2nd dman. With both Markov and Subban, you get 40+ minutes of 1st pairing duty if you seperate them. Your thrid pairing also becomes more effective, bringing us close to being a defensive powerhouse, instead of finishing 10th in GAA with Subban, Gorges and several rookies, we'd probably be top 5 in GAA, with a solid D-corps.

Having another Markov-type dman is not a sideway move.. holy crap, don't quit your day job.

Ozymandias is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:26 PM
  #455
coolasprICE
Registered User
 
coolasprICE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Thank you. Those ridiculous racism claims irk me to no end.
True. But, if PK Subban was Haitian and raised in Quebec, he'd be signed.

@GMolsonCHC #signsubban

coolasprICE is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:26 PM
  #456
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 5,968
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Well.. My point was more about Subban cannot actually force a trade if MB doesn't want to trade him. Therefore, it doesn't make to use the word "demand", which carries actual power.
Of course no player can ever force a trade. But if Subban says he doesn't want to play for Montreal anymore due to Bergevin's negotiating tactics, then Subban is going to be dealt. Very rare does a team keep an unhappy player.

No Team Needed is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:26 PM
  #457
haburger*
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,589
vCash: 500
5 mil for two years?no way in hell that is correct.

haburger* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:28 PM
  #458
PricePkPatch*
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,482
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
False premise. False interpretation of facts.

You know, unlike the Caps and Panthers, some teams, the teams we would actually want to beat to be among the best, those teams have more than one good offensive line. With those teams, having two #1 defensemen isn't a luxury, it's the single biggest upgrade one can have to go up against those teams.

Having another Markov-type dman is not a sideway move.. holy crap, don't quit your day job. :facepIalm:
I didn't called it a "sideway" move. I called it "more of what we already had".

PricePkPatch* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:29 PM
  #459
jrk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Demand/request... same thing.

Like I said, we can force him to sit but it's a bad situation.
It is a bad situation to sign him and see him underperform. The team is not missing hum at the moment and he is not showing any interest in the team. All he wants is big contract. I don't like players that are only interest in money. Yes he did well at the end of last year, but that is not nearly enough to give him a ufa like contract. Forcing him is a bad situation, but the guy can choose to loose 5 to 10 millions by choosing this way. I would not want to loose that much because I believe the team I playing with sucks and definately need me to be competitive.

In PK's mind right now, his team sucks and he believes Marc Bergevin has no other choice but to sign him to keep his job. That is a big mistake unless injuries and a loosing strike happen.

jrk is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:30 PM
  #460
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 40,960
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Well.. My point was more about Subban cannot actually force a trade if MB doesn't want to trade him. Therefore, it doesn't make to use the word "demand", which carries actual power.
Demand is just requesting very loudly...

There's no implication of power here. My 4 year old demands stuff all the time.


















Fortunately she hasn't demanded to be traded yet.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:30 PM
  #461
haburger*
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,589
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
True. But, if PK Subban was Haitian and raised in Quebec, he'd be signed.

@GMolsonCHC #signsubban
ha ha ha .you know it.remember when molson said he was gonna take his time hiring the "right "gm to take over?i guess i shouldn't of expected more considering this man runs a beer company which has done nothing but plummet in sales the past 20 years.i cannot remember the last time i saw someone drink a molsons out here in bc.great job geoff!!!!you re beer is as good as you re hockey management sense.

haburger* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:31 PM
  #462
Feel The Rush
Registered User
 
Feel The Rush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Demand/request... same thing.

Like I said, we can force him to sit but it's a bad situation.
Yeah. Forcing PK to sit for an undetermined period of time could alienate him and his camp pretty bad. Not to mention that it wouldn't look good at all on Bergevin resume.

Fix this ****ing mess ASAP

Feel The Rush is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:31 PM
  #463
UsernameWasTaken
Let's Go Hawks!
 
UsernameWasTaken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
As was pointed out to me last night in the Subban thread on the trade board here these are compensation numbers based on a 70.2M cap and they're no longer valid.

Here's the chart that was posted last night in that thread with rough numbers on what the new compensation numbers would be on the right with the lower cap.

the cap this year is 70.2m i think...it's next year that it drops - if he signed a one year deal this year and then signed an offer sheet next year then the compensation rules might be different. but for this year, i think they're what i said they are.

UsernameWasTaken is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:31 PM
  #464
Habnot
 
Habnot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Renaud Lavoie's update in his blog: http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/60.../154013/public
Lends credence to my earlier post.

Habnot is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:35 PM
  #465
haburger*
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,589
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrk View Post
It is a bad situation to sign him and see him underperform. The team is not missing hum at the moment and he is not showing any interest in the team. All he wants is big contract. I don't like players that are only interest in money. Yes he did well at the end of last year, but that is not nearly enough to give him a ufa like contract. Forcing him is a bad situation, but the guy can choose to loose 5 to 10 millions by choosing this way. I would not want to loose that much because I believe the team I playing with sucks and definately need me to be competitive.

In PK's mind right now, his team sucks and he believes Marc Bergevin has no other choice but to sign him to keep his job. That is a big mistake unless injuries and a loosing strike happen.
jesus man for the ******* millionth time look around at what other players of his calibre are making.OK?do you want me too spell it out again?he wants market value!and market value is between 4 and 5 mil per.i didnt set those standards ,other gms did.so why should pk not get fair value?between hedman and myers is fair value.

haburger* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:35 PM
  #466
jrk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Forgot the option where Subban asks for a trade.

He can ask all he wants, Marc Bergevin does not have to comply to PK. PK not playing will lower his value and make him loose alot for the years to come. PK does not want to loose that much in order to make 2 millions more in the next year in a half.

jrk is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:36 PM
  #467
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,507
vCash: 500
Reading RL's article made me upset at MB more and more.

"Il veut d’abord connaître qui est le vrai PK. Il veut savoir si son défenseur est un pro."

"MB wants to know who is the real PK. He wanted to know if his defenseman is a pro"

"Pourquoi ce dossier traîne-t-il toujours ? Est-ce que le Canadien attend que PK Subban exige une transaction, afin de ne pas se mettre les partisans à dos ? Le blâme tomberait ainsi sur le jeune défenseur et non sur Marc Bergevin.
C’est principalement là où la bataille se joue présentement. Selon plusieurs sources, même si l’offre du Canadien ne fait aucun sens pour lui, PK Subban n’exigera pas une transaction. Il ne veut pas quitter cette organisation et c’est à Montréal qu’il veut jouer."

"Why this issue is not resolved? Does the Canadiens wait for Subban to ask for a trade such that they will not upset their fans because the blame will be on Subban and not on Marc Bergevin.
The battle is focusing on that issue. From different source, even the Habs' offer is not making any sense for him, PK Subban does not ask for a trade. He does not want to leave the team and he wants to play for Montreal"

For those who said PK is above the team, you are totally wrong. It was MB who put himself above the team.

JustAHabFan is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:36 PM
  #468
Phil Parent
The Lama Of Levity
 
Phil Parent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Sorel-Tracy, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,993
vCash: 500
I have a question.

Why wasn't Subban skating with his teammates in Montreal during the lockout? To me, that's always been sort of weird. Contract or not. During the lockout, that didn't matter, nobody played.

He didn't play in another league.

The fact that he wanted to skate closer to home can't be a good excuse, a whole lot of other guys from outside of town stayed in town during the whole lockout except the holidays to be with their teammates who hadn't left for Europe. As a matter of fact, LARS ELLER reported all the way from Denmark and stayed here until he signed in Europe.

The fact that he didn't want to report to the team doesn't make sense either. It was a lockout, and they were player-organized workouts that included non-Habs. And yet, Subban preferred working out with the Leafs instead of working and enjoying himself with the guys he's been sharing the room with.

If he would have been MY teammate, I would have been pissed at that. I share Marc Bergevin's interrogations about the man's character.

Phil Parent is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:36 PM
  #469
sheed36
Registered User
 
sheed36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
the cap this year is 70.2m i think...it's next year that it drops - if he signed a one year deal this year and then signed an offer sheet next year then the compensation rules might be different. but for this year, i think they're what i said they are.
I thought the same as you but it was pointed out to me last night that it was wrong so I don't know what's correct now.

sheed36 is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:36 PM
  #470
haburger*
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,589
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Knee View Post
Yeah. Forcing PK to sit for an undetermined period of time could alienate him and his camp pretty bad. Not to mention that it wouldn't look good at all on Bergevin resume.

Fix this ****ing mess ASAP
marc bergevin has a resume?

haburger* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:36 PM
  #471
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 40,960
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrk View Post
It is a bad situation to sign him and see him underperform.
That could be the case with any player. What makes you think he'd underperform? He's proven himself to be a 5 million dollar player and he should be paid in that ballpark. There's an element of risk in any contract. That's why you look at what a players worth is and offer accordingly. 4.5-5 is fair. 2-3 isn't.

And don't you think it's a bad situation if he signs a cheap contract, plays great and doesn't get rewarded for it? Is that fair? For Pete's sake the guy made 800k last year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrk View Post
The team is not missing hum at the moment and he is not showing any interest in the team. All he wants is big contract. I don't like players that are only interest in money.
How do you know this? If he's being lowballed that's not his fault. And it's silly to say that all he wants is money when you don't know what he's being offered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrk View Post
Yes he did well at the end of last year, but that is not nearly enough to give him a ufa like contract. Forcing him is a bad situation, but the guy can choose to loose 5 to 10 millions by choosing this way. I would not want to loose that much because I believe the team I playing with sucks and definately need me to be competitive.
He's a 5 million dollar player man. 25 other blueliners make this much money and he's certainly worth it. That is not UFA money, if he was a UFA he'd get a hell of a lot more than he's actually worth. The reason for this is because the team that he'd be going to would be paying for potential and not giving up any assets other than cap space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrk View Post
In PK's mind right now, his team sucks and he believes Marc Bergevin has no other choice but to sign him to keep his job. That is a big mistake unless injuries and a loosing strike happen.
How do you know what's in his mind? You're making all kinds of presumptions here and the news keeps reporting that we're lowballing him.

Why?

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:40 PM
  #472
haburger*
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,589
vCash: 500
dude you re gonna bother arguing with that guy?lol.

haburger* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:40 PM
  #473
Kjell Dahlin
Registered User
 
Kjell Dahlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Québec, Québec
Posts: 2,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
How is it optimal for the habs to pay more money in 2 years than they would if they signed PK long term right now ?



That's mostly for Bergevin to decide.



You are living in the past. Teams don't own rights to players until they are 31 anymore.

Look at what the rest of the NHL is doing :

Taylor Hall
Tyler Myers
Jordan Eberle
John Carlson
Jamie Benn
Marc Staal
Anze Kopitar
Travis Zajac
Evander Kane
Cam Barker

All signed to 4+ years deal out of their ELC contracts. None of them have been any more impressive than PK.

I've intentionally omitted Kane, Stamkos, Toews, Karlsson, Doughty and some other big names just because they had a higher standing than PK when they signed long term deals after their ELC.




This is ridiculous. If you can't see why then I don't know what to say.




Hehe, the same Gorges who takes it upon himself to ridicule a former teammate by exposing private conversations to the medias during the lockout ?

Or is it the same Gorges who felt he had the right to give his opinion on what PK should do in these negotiations ?

Quite the future captain. If that guy ends up captaining the habs we will have one of the worst one in the league because the guy is neither a star player nor someone whose example you should follow.



Luckily for Bergevin.



What ?
It would be optimal because (1) it would mean that Subban would have become the complete player we all know he can be (paying for an elite player is not a problem) and (2) the team would avoid the risk (example: long terms deal sometime result in a player playing with less urgency; a short terms contract may help Subban reach his full potential => more$$$) associated with giving him a long terms deal now.

Regarding “What ? ”: more than what Price received 2 years ago but not a “lot more” than what Price received 2 years ago = more than 2,75M$ per season but less than 5M$ per season.

As for Gorges, you can bash him all you want but the guy is a level-headed vet with solid leadership abilities. I for one, respect his opinion.

And yes, I don’t think the Canadiens should completely overlook the fact that Subban is a RFA with no rights to arbitration. If they give him a blank check now, it would imply reaching a cap related hell as soon as guys like Galchenyuk reach the same stage. The question here is: “Is Subban willing to make a little sacrifice (à la Pacioretty, Brodeur, Jackman, Hossa...) in an effort to play for and build a contender?”.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
If we lose PK in a offer sheet or a trade, does MB look professional to you. Gainey has been classy and professional but also has been a bad GM at the same time.
Reading Subban’s latest interview with Stubs (The Gazette) felt like watching a freakin' infomercial so, yes, I do appreciate how quiet Bergevin has been during those negotiations.

Very professional; Meehan/Subban should take notes imo.


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 01-26-2013 at 12:49 PM.
Kjell Dahlin is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:40 PM
  #474
PunkinDrublic*
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sutton,Qc-Sudbury,On
Posts: 8,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Renaud Lavoie's update in his blog: http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/60.../154013/public
Wow, he is Captain obvious.

PunkinDrublic* is offline  
Old
01-26-2013, 12:41 PM
  #475
Beatnik
Registered User
 
Beatnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Québec
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,700
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Beatnik
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
True. But, if PK Subban was Haitian and raised in Quebec, he'd be signed.

@GMolsonCHC #signsubban

You seriously think that Bergevin refuses to sign him because he's an english canadian?


That's a very stupid thing to say.

Beatnik is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:48 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.