HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Who benefitted most from his line mates?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-25-2013, 02:34 PM
  #76
Bexlyspeed
Registered User
 
Bexlyspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Astoria, Queens, N.Y
Country: United States
Posts: 1,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ofuzz View Post
First players I thought of were Charlie Simmer and Clarke Gillies but then I thought of the reversal repurcussions for the other line mates. Do Trottier and Bossy get all of those points without Gillies winning every corner battle? Do Dionne and Taylor get all of those points without Simmer being such a good trigger man? The obvious is to go with the perceived weakest linemate skill-wise but it doesn't always work. In the end I'd have to go with one year wonders like Warren Young who drew the winning straw to play with Mario. One name that hasn't been mentioned is Errol Thompson with the Leafs. He had his best years playing future Hall of Famers Sittler and MacDonald.
I do think Trottier and Bossy are as productive without gillies, they really were that good. yes Gillies did contribute, but trotts and boss also had Kallur laying with them for an prolong period of time and it didnt hurt their production.

Bexlyspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-25-2013, 08:47 PM
  #77
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Kevin was an essential part of the penguins he had serious substance abuse issues which curtailed his career.All the best to him
There was also this hit, which was the effective end of Stevens as a top-tier player:


pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-25-2013, 08:53 PM
  #78
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How much higher scoring were the 1980s than the early 90s? Not much. Very comparable offensive environment. And the biggest difference in offense is that the bottom-liners were scoring less on-average in the 90s; the early 90s had MORE "high-scoring" forwards despite a slight decrease in overall goals. 1992-93 is a great example - lower average goals per game than the 80s, but more 100-point scorers than any year ever. And there were guys like Lindros and Fedorov who were on-pace to do it. In the 80s, you had maybe 8 or 10 100-point players. Not 20+.
Other than a brief spike in 1992-93, the 1980s were significantly higher scoring than any point in the 1990s. In fact, the early-mid 80s were even higher scoring than the late 80s.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-25-2013, 11:56 PM
  #79
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,101
vCash: 500
last I checked, every year in the 80s was higher scoring than every year in the 90s.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 09:15 AM
  #80
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,855
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrafSk8r12 View Post
Kevin Stevens?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Kevin was an essential part of the penguins he had serious substance abuse issues which curtailed his career.All the best to him
Not to mention that horrible face smashing he took.

He was a real good player on his own until that.

He was just better with Mario - like anyone would be.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 09:16 AM
  #81
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,855
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Other than a brief spike in 1992-93, the 1980s were significantly higher scoring than any point in the 1990s. In fact, the early-mid 80s were even higher scoring than the late 80s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
last I checked, every year in the 80s was higher scoring than every year in the 90s.
I think his point still stands though.

The average may have been down but the distribution was obviously changing at the same time. Especially in that strange 92-93 season.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 12:34 PM
  #82
whatname
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
One theory that I've touted around for awhile is that everybody became better because of Gretzky even after he left.

What are the chances that the Oilers draft three HoFers between the '79 and '80 drafts plus Glenn Anderson and Kevin Lowe? Did they happen to have the best/luckiest drafting on all time or is there something else in effect?

My theory is that playing with Gretzky didn't just improve the performance of players, but just all around made them better players. More on, that Messier would not be a HoFer if not for the experience of playing with Gretzky.

I know from my own standpoint that playing with players so much better than me has not just improved my performance while playing with them, but has taught me things that made me better on my own.


I think this extends into a lot of dynasties. They're quarterbacked by two or three amazing players that made the other good players into great players.


Now, I don't have any empirical data, but it certainly does help to make sense of how a team like the Oilers could get so good so quickly.
I agree with that. The Oilers' players were good, but learning from Gretzky during practice and games turned them into great players. I think same could be said for Jagr and Lemieux (note: this is not related to the topic in this thread), Jagr would have been great regardless, but I'm not sure if he would have been better than Fedorov or Bure had Jagr not played with Lemieux. Hell, Jagr, a bit like Messier, entered superstardom in 94-95 when Lemieux wasn't on the team.

Here's an old SI article that briefly touches on the subject of Messier learning from his teammates: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7299/index.htm On the second page, Moose's father says Messier probably wouldn't top 25 goals if he was on a team such as the Red Wings.

whatname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 12:52 PM
  #83
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
on top of all the little tricks gretzky probably showed to his teammates, and the way he taught them to see the game in a more profound way, i think you kind of just have to put yourself in coffey's or messier's or kurri's skates and ask yourself: if the greatest and most talented player you'd ever seen was also the hardest working guy on the team and did more to constantly try to improve himself than anyone else, even though he was lapping the league from day one and kept breaking his own staggering records, wouldn't that change the how you hard you work and prepare?

and honestly, that was the difference between mario and gretzky. both obviously made their teammates better, and i doubt jagr is as great as he is without watching mario close up as a teenager and learning from him, but on the other hand, mario didn't relentlessly try to better himself. the talent was there, and i'm not saying he was lazy, but he didn't have the drive to maximize himself because, come on, he was already so far ahead of everyone else.

and when we look at the careers of mario's teammates vs. gretzky's, you look at coffey, kurri, messier, and anderson. every one of those guys wildly exceeded what was expected out of them. you couldn't imagine those guys having better careers than they actually did. whereas jagr, as great as he was, did leave you wanting more at times. recchi would be the one guy who came into the league under mario's watch that you could say overachieved (though he had his own down years in montreal). but dan quinn, rob brown, kevin stevens (extremely hard worker on the ice, but dedication off the ice...), markus naslund (took losing really well), aleksey morozov...

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 03:08 PM
  #84
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,236
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
last I checked, every year in the 80s was higher scoring than every year in the 90s.
even 93?

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 03:32 PM
  #85
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,855
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
and honestly, that was the difference between mario and gretzky. both obviously made their teammates better, and i doubt jagr is as great as he is without watching mario close up as a teenager and learning from him, but on the other hand, mario didn't relentlessly try to better himself. the talent was there, and i'm not saying he was lazy, but he didn't have the drive to maximize himself because, come on, he was already so far ahead of everyone else.
I agree with you early on in Mario's career but after he was exposed to Gretzky in the 87 Canada Cup he did change somewhat.

You have to keep in mind that his back was in such bad shape at times that he didn't practice and couldn't tie his own skates.

That really limits how hard you can work.

Partly that is on him for having such bad habits early on, but by the time his work ethic changed the damage was done. Lemieux also worked quite hard for his last comeback.

Also, Jagr definitely learned a lot from Lemieux and has admitted as much more than once. One of the things he said he learned was the drive to be the best.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 04:47 PM
  #86
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
even 93?
Yes. Overall league scoring was higher in every year of the 80s. But the performances of 1st liners (which is what is relevant here) was higher during the weird 1993 blip.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 05:09 PM
  #87
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,696
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Like I said Lemaire was a very good player but for me I would never consider him elite
He could have had a longer career, however I don't think he was the beneficiary of Lafleur that you might think. Keep in mind he was a wonderful defensive player as well. In 1973 he had 95 points. This is not because of Lafleur by any means. In 1975 he had 92 points and Mahovlich was Lafleur's centerman. In 1978 he had 97 and was with Lafleur. So really, I think he did well on his own. Lemaire earned his HHOF status more than Shutt.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 05:40 PM
  #88
SCinSJ
Sith Lord Burns
 
SCinSJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Rafael, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,429
vCash: 500
Whenever this discussion comes up my first thought is always Bernie Nicholls.

SCinSJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 12:55 PM
  #89
feffan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Malmö
Country: Sweden
Posts: 667
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Waters View Post
I'm not sure, but how about Mikael Renberg? Just the first name I thought of - I didn't follow the league closely at the time during his flyer days, but from what I know he wasn't that good after 1997. Thoughts?
Renberg actually was quite the player for a short time (2,5 seasons at age 22-24) before many injuries transformed him. Had 82 point 38 goal rookie-season without Lindros and LeClair and was on pace for 45-50 goals both 94/95 and 95/96 before his stressed abdominal muscle "finally" tore. Broke his hand, skate to the face, broke his thmub, a propeller tore his arm, and so on... Arguments for both LeClair and Renberg regarding the second best player on the line could be and was being made before his abdominal injury.

For example he never scored this kind of goals after 95:

feffan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 01:39 PM
  #90
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by feffan View Post
Renberg actually was quite the player for a short time (2,5 seasons at age 22-24) before many injuries transformed him. Had 82 point 38 goal rookie-season without Lindros and LeClair and was on pace for 45-50 goals both 94/95 and 95/96 before his stressed abdominal muscle "finally" tore. Broke his hand, skate to the face, broke his thmub, a propeller tore his arm, and so on... Arguments for both LeClair and Renberg regarding the second best player on the line could be and was being made before his abdominal injury.

For example he never scored this kind of goals after 95:
i agree, young renberg was awesome. in many ways, he was better than leclair. better skater, more creative playmaker. though leclair had the better hands in tight and was the better andreychuk-type scorer.

but wasn't renberg's rookie year on a line with lindros and recchi (i.e., two probably hall of famers)? as i recall, that was the argument used in the press for why he wasn't as impressive as brodeur, yashin, and arnott, fairly or unfairly.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 02:35 PM
  #91
feffan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Malmö
Country: Sweden
Posts: 667
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i agree, young renberg was awesome. in many ways, he was better than leclair. better skater, more creative playmaker. though leclair had the better hands in tight and was the better andreychuk-type scorer.

but wasn't renberg's rookie year on a line with lindros and recchi (i.e., two probably hall of famers)? as i recall, that was the argument used in the press for why he wasn't as impressive as brodeur, yashin, and arnott, fairly or unfairly.
Would have been nice to see what Renberg and the Legion could have accomplished if he got to "keep" his skating and shot for a couple of more seasons. Never really could replace him, even if Lindros and LeClair were crazy good as a duo.

He played some with Lindros but as I remember it he mostly had Brind'Amour as a center his rookie year, permantly moving to Lindros wing about the same time as LeClair arrived. During at least the start of Renbergs rookieseason I remember it as that the Crazy Eights (Lindros, Recchi, Fedyk) still existed. Canīt say I remember the Calder Tropy debate, canīt even remember why Arnott got the centerspot in the rookie team instead of Yashin. Seems weird looking back.

feffan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 04:24 PM
  #92
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,579
vCash: 500
The answer has got to be Rob Brown.

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 05:02 PM
  #93
thom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,026
vCash: 500
You could be right but one thing about Rob Brown was he was one of the greatest junior players ever he has his number retired in Kamloops and his dad was the best gm ever for the junior club

thom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 07:50 PM
  #94
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by feffan View Post
Would have been nice to see what Renberg and the Legion could have accomplished if he got to "keep" his skating and shot for a couple of more seasons. Never really could replace him, even if Lindros and LeClair were crazy good as a duo.

He played some with Lindros but as I remember it he mostly had Brind'Amour as a center his rookie year, permantly moving to Lindros wing about the same time as LeClair arrived. During at least the start of Renbergs rookieseason I remember it as that the Crazy Eights (Lindros, Recchi, Fedyk) still existed. Canīt say I remember the Calder Tropy debate, canīt even remember why Arnott got the centerspot in the rookie team instead of Yashin. Seems weird looking back.
i don't cry north american bias very often. but that was almost certainly at least partly north american bias; yashin was easily the second best rookie in the league that year, with an argument for best over even brodeur. renberg was where he should have been in third, arnott fourth.

another factor is that guys who step right in at 18 usually get extra consideration for the rookie awards. jagr, for example, should in no way shape or form have gotten any calder votes his rookie year, but people were dazzled at what he could do at such a young age. but in a year with belfour, fedorov, rob blake (all worthy calder winners in less competitive years), plus richter stealing the starting job from beezer and finishing as a vezina finalist and a crazy year by ken hodge jr., how could anyone have put jagr in their top three?

arnott getting more calder votes than renberg was probably an age thing too. renberg was 21, with three years experience in the SEL.

also rumoured was the senators organization sent highlight compilation tapes of daigle, not yashin, to calder and ART voters in order to hype the "face of the franchise" and get him into the top three (daigle received zero calder votes). i've heard sens fans say that yashin never forgot this slight, on top of being low-balled come contract time while daigle was making bank and that soured his relationship with the organization-- hence always holding out and trying to bleed them dry during contract negotiations. now that i think about it, if all that is true, it makes yashin's behaviour a little more excusable (given that many of us extend similar excuses to bure vs. quinn/burke). not totally excusable, but at least a bit.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 08:59 PM
  #95
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,696
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCinSJ View Post
Whenever this discussion comes up my first thought is always Bernie Nicholls.
To be fair, we all think about the spike 1989 season but in reality Nicholls had 95+ points 4 other times in his career. He scored wherever he went in his career with whoever he played with. A fine point collector in his own right and was still pretty good in the postseason too. I don't think he is a guy who belongs on this thread.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-28-2013, 09:19 PM
  #96
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,845
vCash: 593
Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
You could be right but one thing about Rob Brown was he was one of the greatest junior players ever he has his number retired in Kamloops and his dad was the best gm ever for the junior club
Yeah i think i've allready written it in here but he was also a spectacular producer in the minors. Before and around 1990 such numbers took you to the NHL, with or without Mario, but Brown soon felt a new game coming and he was out of the league. Would be interesting to know if he changed something before he came back in the late nineties during the dead puck era of all eras.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-29-2013, 10:46 PM
  #97
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,433
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
You could be right but one thing about Rob Brown was he was one of the greatest junior players ever he has his number retired in Kamloops and his dad was the best gm ever for the junior club
People do forget about how good offensively Brown was before and after his brief stint with Mario.

He had 4 huge years offensively in the IHL in the middle of the 90's

The 1st player that comes to mind for me is Charlie Simmer, followed by Esposito.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 10:43 AM
  #98
Faltorvo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,082
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCinSJ View Post
Whenever this discussion comes up my first thought is always Bernie Nicholls.
I agree ,if your thinking with the mind set, oh man that guy is scoring in ultra elite territory.

But BN had a very solid offensive career outside WG.

My nomination goes to Blair McDonald.


Last edited by Faltorvo: 02-01-2013 at 10:50 AM.
Faltorvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 10:50 AM
  #99
Faltorvo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,082
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
To be fair, we all think about the spike 1989 season but in reality Nicholls had 95+ points 4 other times in his career. He scored wherever he went in his career with whoever he played with. A fine point collector in his own right and was still pretty good in the postseason too. I don't think he is a guy who belongs on this thread.
To this day, i still have absolutely no idea why LA traded BN away.

Faltorvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-01-2013, 11:10 AM
  #100
kingdok
Registered User
 
kingdok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,493
vCash: 500
First name coming to mind is Rob Brown

kingdok is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. Đ2014 All Rights Reserved.