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Ryan O'Reilly's KHL contract terminated

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Old
01-25-2013, 09:50 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
As for EJ being a #3 on most contenders...look no further than last years cup winner to see a team he would certainly be a #2 on. Also see teams like Pittsburgh and Boston.
Part of me is confused as to why Erik Johnson is all of a sudden a better defenseman than Willie Mitchell.

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01-25-2013, 10:04 PM
  #152
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Wait...so one Avs fan saying EJ is close to those guys when they were at the same point in their careers suddenly makes Avs fans delusional? (That's you what implied we were)
Not avs fans in general, but I clearly said some avs fans....

Quote:
Yes, clearly EJ and Phillips are comparable because they are both defensman(wow!!) and both drafted 1st overall(AMAZING!! They are literally the same player!!) So you're saying he can't become a legit #1. Great. Tell me, how does this have anything to do with Gormley. Or do you think he will be a legit #1 and solve all the Avs issues
Yes, they are comparable not only in the fact that they are both #1 D's, but that there is literally no improvement in each of their first 6 seasons in the NHL. Here is Phillips' stats during those years:

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/- GP G A Pts PIM
1997-98 Ottawa Senators NHL 72 5 11 16 38 2 11 0 2 2 2
1998-99 Ottawa Senators NHL 34 3 3 6 32 -5 3 0 0 0 0
1999-00 Ottawa Senators NHL 65 5 14 19 39 12 6 0 1 1 4
2000-01 Ottawa Senators NHL 73 2 12 14 31 8 1 1 0 1 0
2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 63 6 16 22 29 5 12 0 0 0 12
2002-03 Ottawa Senators NHL 78 3 16 19 71 7 18 2 4 6 12

Yup, that's exactly what I mean, which is that both of their careers at during the first period is largely stagnant, with negligible improvement over time. Phillips turned out to be a fine player (a serviceable #3 D on a decent team), but never fulfilled the original expectation on him.

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Tell me, how many Avs games have you watched? Love to know. Seems to me the people who never watch a player play then judge said player, are the ones who throw the importance of actually watching a player before judging that player out the window. You think EJ has plateaued and cannot become a #1 D? For instance, did you watch the game last night? EJ was a beast. He absolutely played like a #1 defensman. He certainly has the potential to be one. But no, I'm sure, you, after browsing hockeydb, can say with complete confidence he will never become one. Gotta love the internet experts who pull up some stats on NHL.com and suddenly know everything about a player and how good he is, as well as his potential.
I have watched at least a dozen Avs games each season, so I'm well familiar with how their players play. So you can spare me those condescending tones of how you know better than people who don't watch him, and that you don't need to rely on stats to form an informed conclusion.

Hilarious, "EJ was a beast", "absolutely played like a #1", again the type of garbage argument that has absolute no objectivity built into it. No matter how many adverbs like "absolutely" you throw into your vague and meaningless description, it's not going to make it an ounce more concrete and credible. If you really want to make a case of how stats really lie about how EJ plays, how about listing some examples of SPECIFIC instances in SPECIFIC GAMES where his good plays are not reflected in any measurable stats category. Then list some concrete reasons with a detailed analysis of his playing style why his good plays are SO OFTEN not reflected in stats? If you can't do that, then you have been blowing pure hot-air in this entire thread.

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01-25-2013, 10:25 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Not avs fans in general, but I clearly said some avs fans....



Yes, they are comparable not only in the fact that they are both #1 D's, but that there is literally no improvement in each of their first 6 seasons in the NHL. Here is Phillips' stats during those years:

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/- GP G A Pts PIM
1997-98 Ottawa Senators NHL 72 5 11 16 38 2 11 0 2 2 2
1998-99 Ottawa Senators NHL 34 3 3 6 32 -5 3 0 0 0 0
1999-00 Ottawa Senators NHL 65 5 14 19 39 12 6 0 1 1 4
2000-01 Ottawa Senators NHL 73 2 12 14 31 8 1 1 0 1 0
2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 63 6 16 22 29 5 12 0 0 0 12
2002-03 Ottawa Senators NHL 78 3 16 19 71 7 18 2 4 6 12

Yup, that's exactly what I mean, which is that both of their careers at during the first period is largely stagnant, with negligible improvement over time. Phillips turned out to be a fine player (a serviceable #3 D on a decent team), but never fulfilled the original expectation on him.



I have watched at least a dozen Avs games each season, so I'm well familiar with how their players play. So you can spare me those condescending tones of how you know better than people who don't watch him, and that you don't need to rely on stats to form an informed conclusion.

Hilarious, "EJ was a beast", "absolutely played like a #1", again the type of garbage argument that has absolute no objectivity built into it. No matter how many adverbs like "absolutely" you throw into your vague and meaningless description, it's not going to make it an ounce more concrete and credible. If you really want to make a case of how stats really lie about how EJ plays, how about listing some examples of SPECIFIC instances in SPECIFIC GAMES where his good plays are not reflected in any measurable stats category. Then list some concrete reasons with a detailed analysis of his playing style why his good plays are SO OFTEN not reflected in stats? If you can't do that, then you have been blowing pure hot-air in this entire thread.
Uh...yeah...those Phillips stats are not even comparable to what EJ has done. So your saying they are both stagnanat in their first 6 years? Great. EJ has been stagnant on a much higher level.



Cute. Using caps and bolding things to try and make it look official. So basically you're throwing the opinion of people who actually watched EJ play out the window and demanding specific instances in games? Simpler solution, you watch the next 5 Avs games then come back and talk. Its funny how defensive your being about how watching games actually matters. EJ is pretty much the only top 4 defensman the Avs have. Look at the types of players he has been playing and who have been his partners. O'Brien, Hunwick, Wilson, etc. The Avs D is a wreck after EJ. The only thing seperating us from being the worst D in the league is EJ. Look at the Avs defenders after him. Wilson, Hunwick, Zanon, O'Brien, Hedja. A collection of bottom pairing defensman/4th D. How do you think any defensman would look playing with that? All the top defenders in the league are surrounded by other good defenders. EJ is basically surrounded by crap. He is still young and still has a ton of potential. We are happy to keep him as our #1 defensman. If you think differently, fine. The Avs really don't care.



Also, how about you actually answer how any of this is relevant to Gormley. I love how you consistently ignore that. We need a top pairing defender now. Gormley is not that. This thread is about O'Reilly, and somehow you've turned it in to an EJ thread. How about you get back on topic and stop avoiding what actually matters. Or do you not have an answer to that and this is your way out?

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01-25-2013, 10:42 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Wait...so one Avs fan saying EJ is close to those guys when they were at the same point in their careers suddenly makes Avs fans delusional? (That's you what implied we were)



Yes, clearly EJ and Phillips are comparable because they are both defensman(wow!!) and both drafted 1st overall(AMAZING!! They are literally the same player!!) So you're saying he can't become a legit #1. Great. Tell me, how does this have anything to do with Gormley. Or do you think he will be a legit #1 and solve all the Avs issues



Tell me, how many Avs games have you watched? Love to know. Seems to me the people who never watch a player play then judge said player, are the ones who throw the importance of actually watching a player before judging that player out the window. You think EJ has plateaued and cannot become a #1 D? For instance, did you watch the game last night? EJ was a beast. He absolutely played like a #1 defensman. He certainly has the potential to be one. But no, I'm sure, you, after browsing hockeydb, can say with complete confidence he will never become one. Gotta love the internet experts who pull up some stats on NHL.com and suddenly know everything about a player and how good he is, as well as his potential.
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Uh...yeah...those Phillips stats are not even comparable to what EJ has done. So your saying they are both stagnanat in their first 6 years? Great. EJ has been stagnant on a much higher level.
Stats tell a different story. EJ is at best a few points per season ahead of phillips in each of his years. The most important thing is that they are both on the same trajectory from their respective rookie performances, roughly flat, zero improvement. Phillips went onto be a decent D, and never achieve much beyond what he was able to the first 6 years.

Quote:
Cute. Using caps and bolding things to try and make it look official. So basically you're throwing the opinion of people who actually watched EJ play out the window and demanding specific instances in games? Simpler solution, you watch the next 5 Avs games then come back and talk. Its funny how defensive your being about how watching games actually matters. EJ is pretty much the only top 4 defensman the Avs have. Look at the types of players he has been playing and who have been his partners. O'Brien, Hunwick, Wilson, etc. The Avs D is a wreck after EJ. The only thing seperating us from being the worst D in the league is EJ. Look at the Avs defenders after him. Wilson, Hunwick, Zanon, O'Brien, Hedja. A collection of bottom pairing defensman/4th D. How do you think any defensman would look playing with that? All the top defenders in the league are surrounded by other good defenders. EJ is basically surrounded by crap. He is still young and still has a ton of potential. We are happy to keep him as our #1 defensman. If you think differently, fine. The Avs really don't care.
Thanks, your earlier emoticons were quite cute as well.

It's also funny how you keep talking about how EJ plays when ppl watch him, and his great exploits as a "beast" on ice. And yet through this entire thread, have failed to provide a single SPECIFIC AN CONCRETE instance of how that is not reflected in his stats. You talk more about the other defencemen's skills than you actually comment on EJ's.

And I can assure you that the Avs certainly do care, and given the history of them having Borque and Blake on the same team, they know what a true #1 D looks like on a contender.

Quote:
Also, how about you actually answer how any of this is relevant to Gormley. I love how you consistently ignore that. We need a top pairing defender now. Gormley is not that. This thread is about O'Reilly, and somehow you've turned it in to an EJ thread. How about you get back on topic and stop avoiding what actually matters. Or do you not have an answer to that and this is your way out?
RoR is a fine player, certainly worth Gormley. Sure Gormley is a risk, but also still has the potential to be a top pairing D. No one is forcing you to trade RoR, do with it as you will, but know that having three top-2 centers on the same team, and refusing to pay them their fair compensation is what breeds this type of situation that you have with RoR today. If the Avs have a long term view of the team's direction, they would work to use their assets to balance their team out between C and D positions, if their D-corps is really as woeful as you seem to describe it.

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01-25-2013, 11:06 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Stats tell a different story. EJ is at best a few points per season ahead of phillips in each of his years. The most important thing is that they are both on the same trajectory from their respective rookie performances, roughly flat, zero improvement. Phillips went onto be a decent D, and never achieve much beyond what he was able to the first 6 years.



Thanks, your earlier emoticons were quite cute as well.

It's also funny how you keep talking about how EJ plays when ppl watch him, and his great exploits as a "beast" on ice. And yet through this entire thread, have failed to provide a single SPECIFIC AN CONCRETE instance of how that is not reflected in his stats. You talk more about the other defencemen's skills than you actually comment on EJ's.

And I can assure you that the Avs certainly do care, and given the history of them having Borque and Blake on the same team, they know what a true #1 D looks like on a contender.



RoR is a fine player, certainly worth Gormley. Sure Gormley is a risk, but also still has the potential to be a top pairing D. No one is forcing you to trade RoR, do with it as you will, but know that having three top-2 centers on the same team, and refusing to pay them their fair compensation is what breeds this type of situation that you have with RoR today. If the Avs have a long term view of the team's direction, they would work to use their assets to balance their team out between C and D positions, if their D-corps is really as woeful as you seem to describe it.
So, simply because they both did not improve much after their rookie season, they are comparable players? Great logic there. If you merely think Johnson will be a decent D like Phillips there is no point in talking to you.



Where did I talk about EJ and his great exploits on the ice...? He had an excellent game last night. Don't believe me? Go watch it. I'm sure you can find it. Instead you just constantly belittle EJ.



You don't think a defensmans play is affected by who he plays with? That's like saying a forward won't have his stats affected by his linemates. It matters very much. You're just trying to ignore it because it goes against what you're saying and it's undeniable. A player is affected by the quality of the players around him, and EJ is surrounded by crap. EJ pretty much has to do it all. Despite all your blustering to the contrary, EJ still has a ton of potential, and certainly can, and is, our #1 defensman.

The Avs have shown every indication they are happy with him as their #1 D. I guarantee you they really don't care about the assurances of a Coyotes fan on the Internet, when all evidence from the Avs organization points to the contrary.



If we are trading ROR it is for a defenseman now. We have three good young defenders who also have potential but have proven nothing in Elliot, Barrie, and Siemens. Fair compensation? You think O'Reilly is worth 5m a year? When Benn only got 5.25? He is certainly not. 5m would be a huge overpayment. Do you actually know anything about this situation or not...? And yes, the Avs D is brutal. Go over to the Avs board and ask if you wish. Like I said, keep Gormley with his top pairing potential. We don't want him at the price of O'Reilly.


I really see no point in continuing this conversation.
-Avs are happy with EJ.
-Avs won't trade you O'Reilly for Gormley.

Let's move on.

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Old
01-25-2013, 11:13 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
So, simply because they both did not improve much after their rookie season, they are comparable players? Great logic there. If you merely think Johnson will be a decent D like Phillips there is no point in talking to you.



Where did I talk about EJ and his great exploits on the ice...? He had an excellent game last night. Don't believe me? Go watch it. I'm sure you can find it. Instead you just constantly belittle EJ.
Still ZERO concrete evidence of any kind that EJ is a "beast", as you put it. I chalk it up to no answer....

Quote:
You don't think a defensmans play is affected by who he plays with? That's like saying a forward won't have his stats affected by his linemates. It matters very much. You're just trying to ignore it because it goes against what you're saying and it's undeniable. A player is affected by the quality of the players around him, and EJ is surrounded by crap. EJ pretty much has to do it all. Despite all your blustering to the contrary, EJ still has a ton of potential, and certainly can, and is, our #1 defensman.
Yes, I do; but you should also take into consideration the quality of the skilled forwards that he has been playing with in StL and Col, which is considerably above average in terms of the league. EJ had a ton of potential 3 / 4 years ago. Having potential is only as good as steady improvement toward that potential, which EJ has not done anything to convince anyone of in recent years.

Quote:
The Avs have shown every indication they are happy with him as their #1 D. I guarantee you they really don't care about the assurances of a Coyotes fan on the Internet, when all evidence from the Avs organization points to the contrary.



If we are trading ROR it is for a defenseman now. We have three good young defenders who also have potential but have proven nothing in Elliot, Barrie, and Siemens. Fair compensation? You think O'Reilly is worth 5m a year? When Benn only got 5.25? He is certainly not. 5m would be a huge overpayment. Do you actually know anything about this situation or not...? And yes, the Avs D is brutal. Go over to the Avs board and ask if you wish. Like I said, keep Gormley with his top pairing potential. We don't want him at the price of O'Reilly.
I never said it would be a straight one for one trade. What I did say was that adding Hanzal to Gormley is a bit excessive; which is not fair in value, and doesn't take into consideration the importance of Hanzal to Tippett's system.

Quote:
I really see no point in continuing this conversation.
-Avs are happy with EJ.
-Avs won't trade you O'Reilly for Gormley.

Let's move on.
Sure, whatever you say.

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01-26-2013, 01:21 AM
  #157
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As far as the Preds proposals from earlier, I think the Avs would want something like Josi+Watson+1st maybe? Josi is awesome and fills a nice need on the blue line, Watson is the kind of prospect that Sherman would love and a 1st is always nice.

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01-26-2013, 02:08 AM
  #158
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EJ's career is the most similar to Phillips, of all the #1 overall D drafted in the last several decades. There is no way around it.
So draft position matters when evaluating players? News to me. I guess Gormley might top out as a Michael Stewart kind of guy then.

Both are D-man, both drafted 13th overall, and both have never played a NHL game.


(I doubt anyone has heard of him so here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael...t_(ice_hockey)

Who's to say Gormley won't be the next Michael Stewart?

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01-26-2013, 09:49 AM
  #159
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Why are we arguing about EJ? Other teams fans are just clueless about the kid, they don't see how great he is taking the puck away from anybody along the boards or down behind the net, they don't realize what a burden he has to carry playing on a team filled with 4th, 5th and 6th defensemen, having to clean up and cover for morons like Wilson, SOB and Hejda (when he played with EJ), while also being responsible for any offense that comes from our blueline. They don't see what an unstoppable monster EJ can be when he rushes the puck. EJ's not perfect and not a shut down #1 yet, but to be honest, that's more an issue of his partners than it is with EJ, only changes I want to see from him is for him to figure out how to create space for his shot from the point, and for him to stay healthy. Other than that the only thing keeping EJ from being that #1 we need is a competent and reliable partner.


Last edited by cgf: 01-26-2013 at 09:55 AM.
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01-26-2013, 12:58 PM
  #160
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My personal take on EJ is that he is a very good defenceman.

His accident probably hurt his career though, he could have been on a Doughty level, but since then I just don't see it anymore.

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01-26-2013, 01:17 PM
  #161
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Part of me is confused as to why Erik Johnson is all of a sudden a better defenseman than Willie Mitchell.
Cereal? Willie Mitchel would not be getting more ice time then EJ even on a team like the Kings...

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01-26-2013, 01:28 PM
  #162
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Dude, supposedly "comparable" players to EJ (according to Avs fans, not me), like Pronger or Chara, are already Norris candidates at this stage of their career (mid 20s). Pronger would have won the MVP the next season, you think EJ is going to be in sniffing distance of the Hart next year, are some avs fans really that delusional???
Stopped there. Who is comparing him to a 6'8 freak of nature or one of the better defensemen of all time? Think you are confusing draft day flash words from Pierre with actual analysis. And Chara wasn't a norris candidate back then, stop the BS. He wasn't even an all star till the Bruins. :roll: Defensemen bloom late often times and EJ missed a season. Let me guess, bogosian is gutter trash that will be nothing more then depth his whole career?? What about Myers? Stat sheets say so, must be true.

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01-26-2013, 01:31 PM
  #163
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I forgot why I came here... Oh yeah, Ryan O'Reilly.....

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01-26-2013, 01:40 PM
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I forgot why I came here... Oh yeah, Ryan O'Reilly.....
Yeah :[ trawlz

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01-26-2013, 01:57 PM
  #165
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Hilarious, "EJ was a beast", "absolutely played like a #1", again the type of garbage argument that has absolute no objectivity built into it. No matter how many adverbs like "absolutely" you throw into your vague and meaningless description, it's not going to make it an ounce more concrete and credible. If you really want to make a case of how stats really lie about how EJ plays, how about listing some examples of SPECIFIC instances in SPECIFIC GAMES where his good plays are not reflected in any measurable stats category. Then list some concrete reasons with a detailed analysis of his playing style why his good plays are SO OFTEN not reflected in stats? If you can't do that, then you have been blowing pure hot-air in this entire thread.
Ok.

Duchenes 1st goal against CBJ on Thursday happened because EJ made a great play along the blue line to keep the puck in and avoid an attacking Blue Jacket forward to make a perfect pass to Hejduk who one timed it on net and Duchene cleaned up the open net. EJ should have gotten the assist but apparently the puck hit Kobasew on the way to the net so he got the assist.

Then in the 2nd or 3rd CBJ had a 2 on 1 against EJ, and EJ made a fantastic sprawling dive on the ice taking away every possible passing lane for the Columbus forward and there wasn't even a shot on net.

Theres 2 examples alone in one game where he's made brilliant plays that #1 Dmen make. He also had some very nice Shot blocks and a nice assist against LA.

So far this year EJ has been a #1 Dman, and a pretty good one for the Avs. Just like he was down the stretch last year.

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01-26-2013, 02:09 PM
  #166
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Seriously, I want to know what the status is on ROR. Any changes? Is he hurt? If so, how bad? Can the oilers get him for peanuts?

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01-26-2013, 02:12 PM
  #167
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blablabla.
I'm sorry, but are you trying to measure improvement of a defenseman by looking at points?

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01-26-2013, 02:14 PM
  #168
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Seriously, I want to know what the status is on ROR. Any changes? Is he hurt? If so, how bad? Can the oilers get him for peanuts?
Apparently he's hurt, and I would have to guess somewhat seriously if his KHL team wanted to terminate the contract over it. He's back in North America now I think.

Nothing really new has been reported, and this is pure speculation from me. But I think he'll probably be signed in the next week or so, as long as he's not seriously injured. He wont be playing anywhere now and even after everything that's happened he's not a guy that will sit around and do nothing, before to long he'll want to be playing again. I think he might cave a little bit.

If I were a betting man, I would guess he signs sometime this week for either 3 or 5 years, for say 3.9M if its 3 years, and about 4.2M if its 5 years.

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01-26-2013, 02:27 PM
  #169
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What would you guys think about Marcus Johansson and Dmitri Orlov for ROR and Ryan Wilson? Orlov's got borderline top pairing upside and Johansson isn't a huge downgrade from ROR.

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01-26-2013, 02:30 PM
  #170
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What would you guys think about Marcus Johansson and Dmitri Orlov for ROR and Ryan Wilson? Orlov's got borderline top pairing upside and Johansson isn't a huge downgrade from ROR.
Needs to be an already established Top pairing or at least Top 3/4 Dman for us to move Oreilly IMO. Guys like Myers, Subban, OEL, Staal, etc.

We might have to add to Oreilly to get teams to move these guys, but I think most Avs fans would much rather add to Oreilly to get someone like that then trade Oreilly for lesser pieces, even if they do still have solid upside.

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01-26-2013, 02:51 PM
  #171
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What would you guys think about Marcus Johansson and Dmitri Orlov for ROR and Ryan Wilson? Orlov's got borderline top pairing upside and Johansson isn't a huge downgrade from ROR.
He is, Radar is as good as MoJo offensively, if not even better and the gap between them on the defensive side of the game is about as big as the Grand Canyon.

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01-26-2013, 03:05 PM
  #172
Lonewolfe2015
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Originally Posted by CoachBadkitten View Post
As far as the Preds proposals from earlier, I think the Avs would want something like Josi+Watson+1st maybe? Josi is awesome and fills a nice need on the blue line, Watson is the kind of prospect that Sherman would love and a 1st is always nice.
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
While I really like Watson and Legwand is a nice replacement for O'Reilly... Avs won't be moving Sgarbossa anytime soon.

Josi + Watson + 1st for O'Reilly + 2nd would be where I personally would start the negotiations with Nashville. Mitchell seems to be ok at our 3rd line role and we could acquire a guy from somewhere else if we had to. But I'd want Josi + Watson from Nashville, other Avs fans probably wouldn't want Watson as much as I.

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01-26-2013, 03:19 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
. Didn't see that. Well I am glad we agree.

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01-26-2013, 05:17 PM
  #174
Zoidberg Jesus
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
He is, Radar is as good as MoJo offensively, if not even better and the gap between them on the defensive side of the game is about as big as the Grand Canyon.
Johansson isn't some defensive black hole. He's no O'Reilly, but the difference isn't enough to qualify him as a huge downgrade. Johansson is also one of the best skaters in the NHL, and is actually playing. The difference between O'Reilly's trade value and Johansson's isn't that big - roughly the difference between Orlov and Wilson, IMO.

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01-26-2013, 06:43 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Johansson isn't some defensive black hole. He's no O'Reilly, but the difference isn't enough to qualify him as a huge downgrade. Johansson is also one of the best skaters in the NHL, and is actually playing. The difference between O'Reilly's trade value and Johansson's isn't that big - roughly the difference between Orlov and Wilson, IMO.
Just because O'Reilly's drastically better than another young player defensively, doesn't mean that player sucks defensively. Just look at his team-mate Matt Duchene. Dutchy's a pretty good 2 way center for someone as young as him and Radar's still got a massive edge on him defensively. Kid really is that good defensively, that's why him and Landeskog were so sexy together, cause they were just disgustingly good at getting the puck back.

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