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01-09-2013, 11:09 AM
  #1
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Academics and recruiting

I see students committing to colleges early in high school (freshman and sophomore years) but how often do schools rescind verbal commitments because of academics? Like Berkeley or Rutgers committing students with talent and later realizing that they couldn't cut it at that school academically. (I know that many schools will go to great lengths to admit such players with no academic merits, though)

I can understand a school cutting a student loose before that student signed his NLI if the student only turned out to be a marginal player, though.

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01-09-2013, 11:12 AM
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Sylvan LAndesberg got kicked off the team because of academics at UVA

Most get help or take easy majors

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01-09-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Sylvan LAndesberg got kicked off the team because of academics at UVA

Most get help or take easy majors
I'm not talking about athletes kicked out of college teams because of academics.

I'm talking about high schoolers that committed to college A and had to settle for college B since college A cut him off because the school deemed that student academically unfit for them.

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01-09-2013, 11:48 AM
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Non issue

They get a lot of help

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01-09-2013, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
I'm not talking about athletes kicked out of college teams because of academics.

I'm talking about high schoolers that committed to college A and had to settle for college B since college A cut him off because the school deemed that student academically unfit for them.
It's possible. There are NCAA requirements to be met and some schools (notably Stanford) have requirements beyond them and some schools tend to be a bit more scrupulous about borderline grey area cases than others. On the margins a lot depends on how much the coach will go to bat for a player and how much clout the coach has in the school.

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01-09-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
It's possible. There are NCAA requirements to be met and some schools (notably Stanford) have requirements beyond them and some schools tend to be a bit more scrupulous about borderline grey area cases than others. On the margins a lot depends on how much the coach will go to bat for a player and how much clout the coach has in the school.
Then again, I think it does happen more often (relatively speaking) in hockey than in football or basketball.

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01-09-2013, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Then again, I think it does happen more often (relatively speaking) in hockey than in football or basketball.
I'm not hugely familiar with hockey recruiting (it just doesn't get coverage on the main recruiting networks) so I can't tell you. But in football most teams will have at least one iffy academic case every year (at some schools it's often a lot more). The iffiness can be a NCAA qualifying issue or the admissions department being skeptical about something in the player's record.

Mind you in most of those cases the kids in question have really really bad academic credentials, it's not unheard of for kids to be illiterate (especially down South). Other times it's more administrative problems, admissions departments not counting certain credits and so forth (the same problems a normal student can run into as well). Personally I feel the likelihood of those problems being resolved and the degree of assistance provided by the football program often highly depends on how good the player is, how important football is at the school in question and how well-established the head coach is.

There's a massive conflict going on here as with many things in college sports. You've got the desire of coaches to have the best players, the desire of universities to WIN and to have academic prestige (staff and faculty will often be divided on this front) as well as the desire of the NCAA to avoid the impression that it's a minor pro league system while at the same time pursuing the $$$ in college sports.

For example, for a long time it was common for teams to let "problem case" players take online courses at BYU for high school credit but the NCAA banned the practice in 2010 because obviously in reality you had someone other than the player do most of the work for those. (But online courses are still a common practice for college players who want to *stay* eligible)

Another common thing is to transfer kids to diploma mill prep schools, something the NCAA has also cracked down on to some extent but loopholes still exist.

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01-09-2013, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
I'm not talking about athletes kicked out of college teams because of academics.

I'm talking about high schoolers that committed to college A and had to settle for college B since college A cut him off because the school deemed that student academically unfit for them.
I forget their names, but I know a couple Montana recruits a couple years ago failed their entrance exams and wound up going to DII schools.

Before that another kid had the same thing happen...and he was the son of one of our coaches. What made that even better is that Montana wound up playing (and blowing the ever-loving hell out of) his DII school with him as the starting QB.

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01-12-2013, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
I see students committing to colleges early in high school (freshman and sophomore years) but how often do schools rescind verbal commitments because of academics? Like Berkeley or Rutgers committing students with talent and later realizing that they couldn't cut it at that school academically. (I know that many schools will go to great lengths to admit such players with no academic merits, though)

I can understand a school cutting a student loose before that student signed his NLI if the student only turned out to be a marginal player, though.
It happens with at least some frequency. If a recruit does not have the academics in line to be enrolled at a Big 10, Pac 12 school, ect... they could enroll with a school in a conference that accepts partial qualifiers (like the SEC or CUSA)

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01-13-2013, 12:49 PM
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I believe Canadian college football teams pay more attention to academics before committing students; you wouldn't see even Laval University attempting to commit 7th-graders or 9th-graders and OUA, CIS-West teams usually wait until junior or senior year to give out scholarship offers to a student.

I may be completely off, but to my knowledge, the UBCs, UTorontos, McGills and Lavals of this world wouldn't recruit students that these schools wouldn't normally admit.

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01-13-2013, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Non issue

They get a lot of help
What? I'm not being mean here, but do you even follow college recruiting? It's not a non-issue at all.

Even a school like WVU with lax academic qualifications for admittance faces this. They lost two of their top recruits last year because they were too stupid to make the grade. Their top recruit who just flipped to Louisville (De'Asian Richardson) will likely not make the cut there and have to go the prep route as well. I believe WV had four guys not make the grades to be eligible last year.

To say that is a "non issue" means you really can't follow recruiting much, man, because it's a HUGE issue for almost every team in the FBS.

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01-13-2013, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDogsandLeafs View Post
It happens with at least some frequency. If a recruit does not have the academics in line to be enrolled at a Big 10, Pac 12 school, ect... they could enroll with a school in a conference that accepts partial qualifiers (like the SEC or CUSA)
Tennessee accepts partials, too, which has always been surprising to me.

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01-13-2013, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
What? I'm not being mean here, but do you even follow college recruiting? It's not a non-issue at all.

Even a school like WVU with lax academic qualifications for admittance faces this. They lost two of their top recruits last year because they were too stupid to make the grade. Their top recruit who just flipped to Louisville (De'Asian Richardson) will likely not make the cut there and have to go the prep route as well. I believe WV had four guys not make the grades to be eligible last year.

To say that is a "non issue" means you really can't follow recruiting much, man, because it's a HUGE issue for almost every team in the FBS.
It's much less of an issue in CIS football because, as I said, CIS teams would cut kids loose if it is clear that they can't get into a given school they committed to on their own merits, since no CIS football coach, not even Glen Constantin (Laval University's head coach; that school basically recruits a grad/law/med student or two yearly, but it goes without saying that RSEQ is held to higher academic standards than FBS) would have the admissions clout to admit a subpar student whose football talent is stellar (by CIS/Division II standards)

But would admitting students that can't hack it in the classroom just so that they can play for the university violate the very concept of a student-athlete?

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01-13-2013, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
It's much less of an issue in CIS football because, as I said, CIS teams would cut kids loose if it is clear that they can't get into a given school they committed to on their own merits, since no CIS football coach, not even Glen Constantin (Laval University's head coach; that school basically recruits a grad/law/med student or two yearly, but it goes without saying that RSEQ is held to higher academic standards than FBS) would have the admissions clout to admit a subpar student whose football talent is stellar (by CIS/Division II standards)

But would admitting students that can't hack it in the classroom just so that they can play for the university violate the very concept of a student-athlete?
Well, I assume that recruiting is much less of an issue in general in the CIS, anyway. It's not exactly a hotbed for football.

And many FBS schools have very, very high academic standards. You do know that Stanford recruits, too, right?

The concept of "student athlete" is a stupid one to begin with, IMHO. Particularly when there is no other route to the NFL. At least the NHL has the CHL to compete with the NCAA.

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01-13-2013, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
What? I'm not being mean here, but do you even follow college recruiting? It's not a non-issue at all.

Even a school like WVU with lax academic qualifications for admittance faces this. They lost two of their top recruits last year because they were too stupid to make the grade. Their top recruit who just flipped to Louisville (De'Asian Richardson) will likely not make the cut there and have to go the prep route as well. I believe WV had four guys not make the grades to be eligible last year.

To say that is a "non issue" means you really can't follow recruiting much, man, because it's a HUGE issue for almost every team in the FBS.
You're talking about a system where a 2.5 Tyler Wilson gets SEC Academic Honors

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01-13-2013, 08:13 PM
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01-13-2013, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Well, I assume that recruiting is much less of an issue in general in the CIS, anyway. It's not exactly a hotbed for football.

And many FBS schools have very, very high academic standards. You do know that Stanford recruits, too, right?

The concept of "student athlete" is a stupid one to begin with, IMHO. Particularly when there is no other route to the NFL. At least the NHL has the CHL to compete with the NCAA.
Stanford has the highest academic standards of any FBS team (the Ivies come close but they play FCS)

Quote:
You're talking about a system where a 2.5 Tyler Wilson gets SEC Academic Honors
Is 2.5 the lowest GPA required to get academic honors in SEC? Lots of players are walking a fine line between academic probation and 2.5, then.

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01-19-2013, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
You're talking about a system where a 2.5 Tyler Wilson gets SEC Academic Honors
You completely avoided the discussion of recruiting, which is the whole point of this thread.

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01-19-2013, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
I'm not talking about athletes kicked out of college teams because of academics.

I'm talking about high schoolers that committed to college A and had to settle for college B since college A cut him off because the school deemed that student academically unfit for them.
I follow UF recruiting somewhat closely..they had a kid last year Dante Phillips not qualify when he was supposed to enroll and he ended up going to Tennessee. UF does a pretty good job of making sure their commitments will qualify, they may have pulled his scholly if they didn't think he would make it in. Phillips was in line to qualify until he bombed his last semester of high school. This year there's a DE that they lead for but they won't let him visit or give him an offer because his grades aren't good enough. It can be an issue but if the school is on top of it and monitoring their recruits progress they'll be ok. If a school has more than 2 kids not qualify that's their fault.

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01-19-2013, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02 View Post
I follow UF recruiting somewhat closely..they had a kid last year Dante Phillips not qualify when he was supposed to enroll and he ended up going to Tennessee. UF does a pretty good job of making sure their commitments will qualify, they may have pulled his scholly if they didn't think he would make it in. Phillips was in line to qualify until he bombed his last semester of high school. This year there's a DE that they lead for but they won't let him visit or give him an offer because his grades aren't good enough. It can be an issue but if the school is on top of it and monitoring their recruits progress they'll be ok. If a school has more than 2 kids not qualify that's their fault.
Yep, the best teams normally can avoid going after guys who may not qualify. You leave those guys to the next tier teams like WVU and such (we take on a ton of kids who are borderline).

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01-25-2013, 05:05 PM
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http://www.gatorsports.com/article/2...er-a-UF-commit

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New defensive coordinator D.J. Durkin called James Hearns on Thursday and told the Tallahassee Lincoln linebacker UF couldn't take him.

“Coach Durkin let me know I wouldn't be able to get into Florida because of my grades,” Hearns said. “He said I needed to explore my other options, which I've already started doing. I knew this was coming.”

Hearns visited Auburn last weekend and will take a trip to Kentucky this Friday. On Tuesday, he told The Sun he needed to retake his ACT and finish a couple of online classes in order to qualify.

“Florida has been aware of my academic situation for awhile, but coach Durkin said they couldn't wait anymore. Maybe them getting some more linebackers (committed) and me visiting other schools had something to do with that, but I'm not sure,” said Hearns, who is now considering Kentucky, Auburn, South Carolina, Houston and Washington with the Wildcats currently in the lead.

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01-25-2013, 06:51 PM
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I just want to say that football recruiting is on a much later timeline that being implied in this thread. Outside of a guy every few years, the earliest anyone commits is the summer before their junior year. That means they usually have a good idea of who might struggle to qualify by the time offers and commitments are going out. Coaches are rarely blindsided by a guy not getting in and they plan around some wash outs. Some schools take kids they know can't qualify, figuring it will give them an advantage when he comes out of prep school or a JUCO.

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01-25-2013, 08:12 PM
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I just want to say that football recruiting is on a much later timeline that being implied in this thread. Outside of a guy every few years, the earliest anyone commits is the summer before their junior year. That means they usually have a good idea of who might struggle to qualify by the time offers and commitments are going out. Coaches are rarely blindsided by a guy not getting in and they plan around some wash outs. Some schools take kids they know can't qualify, figuring it will give them an advantage when he comes out of prep school or a JUCO.
Yea, you generally know where a kid is going to be academically.

That said, the NCAA has very low academic standards, you can have a 2.5 and a 21 ACT and still qualify with them. Many schools, especially those in the SEC will take anybody who qualifies under NCAA clearinghouse rules.

Even schools that are more prestigious such as Cal and UCLA will accept players well below their typical admission standards. I saw a thing over on California Golden Blogs or somewhere stating that the average HS GPA on their team was like 3.3. That's not a bad GPA, but it's not one that will get you into top level universities.

Even so, these schools take players every year under academic exceptions that are well below those standards and barely qualify under NCAA standards.

Very few FBS colleges force students to pass through regular admissions. Some, such as Stanford force players to go through a very tough admissions process, but most players are still under below admission standards.

Actually, come to think of it the only school I know of that forces athletes to go through general admission is Colorado. Not surprisingly, they suck.

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01-26-2013, 12:49 PM
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Yea, you generally know where a kid is going to be academically.

That said, the NCAA has very low academic standards, you can have a 2.5 and a 21 ACT and still qualify with them. Many schools, especially those in the SEC will take anybody who qualifies under NCAA clearinghouse rules.

Even schools that are more prestigious such as Cal and UCLA will accept players well below their typical admission standards. I saw a thing over on California Golden Blogs or somewhere stating that the average HS GPA on their team was like 3.3. That's not a bad GPA, but it's not one that will get you into top level universities.

Even so, these schools take players every year under academic exceptions that are well below those standards and barely qualify under NCAA standards.

Very few FBS colleges force students to pass through regular admissions. Some, such as Stanford force players to go through a very tough admissions process, but most players are still under below admission standards.

Actually, come to think of it the only school I know of that forces athletes to go through general admission is Colorado. Not surprisingly, they suck.
Yet Colorado's general admission standards make CU-Boulder accessible to anyone at 3.3/25 (or 1750 if using the SAT) or better... Would Rutgers, a school that usually have its student-athletes perform well above FBS average, require of its football players to go through normal admissions?

Would the Ivies have their own players go through regular admissions, despite the lack of athletic scholarships?

Virtually all CIS teams have their players go through regular admission, so I know that many a NCAA Division I player wouldn't academically cut it at schools like even UMB (although UMB is test-optional, and thus can get a player who is ineligible under NCAA rules due to test scores if the player's high-school GPA is high enough), let alone UBC or McGill.

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01-26-2013, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Non issue

They get a lot of help
Actually happens more then one might think. A lot of the time if you hear that a school is "backing off" a recruit it's because they don't think they'll qualify academically to get in. Especially now that props are effectively gone from all the power conferences. It's why teams like Boise and pre-Pac12 Utah became teams able to hang with the big boys. They were in a conference that allowed for prop 48 players, which allowed them to load up on talent that otherwise fell through the cracks and otherwise may never have gotten the chance to play D1 ball.

The early committing that Mathradio is talking about though is almost exclusively a hockey and basketball thing. It's very rare to see a HS football player commit that far ahead of time. Mostly because you don't nearly as often see someone dominate the HS level as a freshman in football compared to other sports.

I can't remember if the SEC still allows props. I know the other 4 power conferences and the Big East do not.


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