HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Flyers Terminate Hovinen's Contract (claimed by Edmonton Oilers, per D. Dreger)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-26-2013, 01:05 PM
  #101
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Answer these questions individually please:
Why are you saying that Ericksson gives you the best CHANCE to succeed?

If the Flyers didn't think he did, and no one else in the NHL thinks he does, why do YOU think he does?

Why aren't people signing him now?
1. Eriksson has put up better stats then any one of our current prospects in a much better league no less. After all when drafting a player you look at his performance do you not? sure there are other things involved but first and foremost it's their performance that indicates potential.

2. You don't know what the Flyers or any other team in the league think, so why do you continually claim that you do? I already suggested one possibility. He may not want to come to NA and play in a lesser league. Another possibility could be family complications, we just don't know. Eriksson not being signed is NOT evidence suggesting he doesn't have the potential/skills to succeed in an NHL role. On the contrary his statistics in a top European league and the fact that an NHL scout thought enough of him that he was selected in an NHL draft suggests otherwise. Again we simply don't know the reason but to suggest that no contract = not NHL material is asinine.

3. See above. and btw he's only 22 so give it some time. Hovinen wasn't signed by the Flyers until 24. Lundqvist was selected the same round as Eriksson, played in the same league, put up similar numbers and didn't come to the NHL until he was 23.


or any/all of these are reasonable answers to your questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Because statistically, and according to those who had watched both at the time, Hovinen was more of a long shot/project than Eriksson.



Surely, no other quality players have ever been overlooked by 29 other NHL teams. Surely, the Flyers have never made a mistake with goalies.



Perhaps because it's far harder to break into the world of goaltending. There are far, far fewer spots for goalies than skaters. Most teams have their spots filled. Lots of those spots are filled with guys with more experience in NA hockey and don't require adjustment time. Maybe the teams that need more goaltending now, can't afford to waste time developing a prospect, and those content with their prospects don't feel the need to use a contract slot on one more...especially since those guys will all be fighting for ice time in their system. Even in the world of backup goalies, most teams will prefer someone washed up with established NA experience than someone fresh out of Europe but with more potential.

Answer me this: if your goalie cupboard is pretty much empty, does it make sense to go with the guy generally recognized as being more established and who has the better overall chance of success? Or does it make more sense to go with someone with less chance of success and a spotty record?

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 01:07 PM
  #102
FLYguy3911
Registered User
 
FLYguy3911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 4,070
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Because statistically, and according to those who had watched both at the time, Hovinen was more of a long shot/project than Eriksson.
They played in two different leagues. The Finnish league has a lot more scoring- a lot more scoring. The SEL is a very defensive game.

And if someone besides Meltzer said Eriksson>Hovinen before this year I'd like to see it.
Quote:
Surely, no other quality players have ever been overlooked by 29 other NHL teams. Surely, the Flyers have never made a mistake with goalies.
There have been undrafted guys that have been overlooked and made an impact in the league. I don't recall any that were drafted, unsigned by choice of the team, and made an impact in the league. If you have one feel free to enlighten us.

Quote:
Perhaps because it's far harder to break into the world of goaltending. There are far, far fewer spots for goalies than skaters. Most teams have their spots filled. Lots of those spots are filled with guys with more experience in NA hockey and don't require adjustment time. Maybe the teams that need more goaltending now, can't afford to waste time developing a prospect, and those content with their prospects don't feel the need to use a contract slot on one more...especially since those guys will all be fighting for ice time in their system. Even in the world of backup goalies, most teams will prefer someone washed up with established NA experience than someone fresh out of Europe but with more potential.
If he's good enough, they'll find room. Six goalies from the SEL alone, were signed to NHL contracts just this summer.

Quote:
Answer me this: if your goalie cupboard is pretty much empty, does it make sense to go with the guy generally recognized as being more established and who has the better overall chance of success? Or does it make more sense to go with someone with less chance of success and a spotty record?
First off I would go with both if I thought they had NHL potential. It was not a one vs. the other scenario people like the portray. The Flyers went with the guy they thought was on the way up. The guy with more potential who looked to be coming into his own. It didn't work out. I think things could have been handled differently from the Flyers perspective, but that's for another day.

FLYguy3911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 01:17 PM
  #103
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
1. Eriksson has put up better stats then any one of our current prospects in a much better league no less. After all when drafting a player you look at his performance do you not? sure there are other things involved but first and foremost it's their performance that indicates potential.
Fair enough. The SEL is not a high scoring league to begin with, however. Didn't Jonas Gustavsson put up some monster numbers over there? Stats are nice, but as many have pointed out in other threads, stats without context aren't the best indicators. He has good numbers. That is great. If that was all that matters...he'd likely have an NHL contract. Again, I have said before, I don't know why the Flyers or the rest of the NHL don't think he is worth a contract, but it is pretty clear that that is the case. Otherwise, wouldn't he have an NHL contract?

Quote:
2. You don't know what the Flyers or any other team in the league think, so why do you continually claim that you do? I already suggested one possibility. He may not want to come to NA and play in a lesser league. Another possibility could be family complications, we just don't know. Eriksson not being signed is NOT evidence suggesting he doesn't have the potential/skills to succeed in an NHL role. On the contrary his statistics in a top European league and the fact that an NHL scout thought enough of him that he was selected in an NHL draft suggests otherwise. Again we simply don't know the reason but to suggest that no contract = not NHL material is asinine.
I guess that is true. A team that drafts a guy, then doesn't sign him and doesn't re-draft him, and then doesn't offer him a contract after that could still think he is an NHL caliber goalie. Not to mention the other teams that didn't draft him the first time, didn't try to trade for him after, didn't draft him the second time, and continue to not offer him a contract also could think he is an NHL caliber goalie.

Quote:
3. See above. and btw he's only 22 so give it some time. Hovinen wasn't signed by the Flyers until 24. Lundqvist was selected the same round as Eriksson, played in the same league, put up similar numbers and didn't come to the NHL until he was 23.
Once again, I never said the kid is terrible and has no shot or anything along those lines. All I am saying and have been saying is that you can't call not signing him a mistake when he is currently sitting in Europe without any NHL contract. At this point, no one but HFBoards and a couple bloggers thinks he is worth a contract. I know it is crazy and I will be called a sheep or Homer lover or apologist or something equally accurate for this, but I think I will trust the scouts who are paid to scout players and have seen him play and probably have even talked to his coaches and him as a player (which, really is not as good as reading some blogs and seeing him play on internet feeds a couple times). Nah, that would be crazy. The Flyers are stupid. They should have given him a contract.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 01:41 PM
  #104
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Fair enough. The SEL is not a high scoring league to begin with, however. Didn't Jonas Gustavsson put up some monster numbers over there? Stats are nice, but as many have pointed out in other threads, stats without context aren't the best indicators. He has good numbers. That is great. If that was all that matters...he'd likely have an NHL contract. Again, I have said before, I don't know why the Flyers or the rest of the NHL don't think he is worth a contract, but it is pretty clear that that is the case. Otherwise, wouldn't he have an NHL contract?
Gustavsson had one good yr in the SEL, very similar to Eriksson's numbers actually. He was significantly older however and his lack of success in the NHL could arguably be attributed to his health problems.


Quote:
I guess that is true. A team that drafts a guy, then doesn't sign him and doesn't re-draft him, and then doesn't offer him a contract after that could still think he is an NHL caliber goalie. Not to mention the other teams that didn't draft him the first time, didn't try to trade for him after, didn't draft him the second time, and continue to not offer him a contract also could think he is an NHL caliber goalie.
If people know that he's not willing to come over for one reason or another (which is obviously just speculation) why would anyone bother to re-draft him or trade for his rights? My point is you don't know anymore then i do which is he doesn't have an NHL contract and has played very well in a top European league. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
Once again, I never said the kid is terrible and has no shot or anything along those lines. All I am saying and have been saying is that you can't call not signing him a mistake when he is currently sitting in Europe without any NHL contract. At this point, no one but HFBoards and a couple bloggers thinks he is worth a contract. I know it is crazy and I will be called a sheep or Homer lover or apologist or something equally accurate for this, but I think I will trust the scouts who are paid to scout players and have seen him play and probably have even talked to his coaches and him as a player (which, really is not as good as reading some blogs and seeing him play on internet feeds a couple times). Nah, that would be crazy. The Flyers are stupid. They should have given him a contract.
i think we went through this not too long ago. i never called not signing him a mistake. you can go through all my posts, i never said that. i realize that others on here may have said that but you're responding to me not any of the others right now. what bothers me is the fact that as soon as someone says something along the lines of i hope they give eriksson a chance/shot or a contract (like myself) you comes out with your "this again?" comment. and again you completely ignored the possible reason i've provided for why he doesn't have a contract. they are completely logical and provide a possible explanation as to why he doesn't have a contract.

you also repeatedly say that since he's not signed that all NHL teams don't consider him to be worth a contract or in this very same post that he isn't NHL material and then you turn around and say this
Quote:
I never said the kid is terrible and has no shot or anything along those lines
if he's not terrible and does have a shot then why then why in your eyes is he not worth a contract? oh cause he doesn't have a contract. that is called a logical fallacy.

i feel like we're starting to go in circles now.

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 04:27 PM
  #105
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Gustavsson had one good yr in the SEL, very similar to Eriksson's numbers actually. He was significantly older however and his lack of success in the NHL could arguably be attributed to his health problems.
Fair enough. Just pointing out that even record setting numbers in the SEL are not proof-positive of anything other than record setting numbers in the SEL.

Quote:
If people know that he's not willing to come over for one reason or another (which is obviously just speculation) why would anyone bother to re-draft him or trade for his rights? My point is you don't know anymore then i do which is he doesn't have an NHL contract and has played very well in a top European league. Nothing more, nothing less.
Uhhh, this is exactly what I am saying. I don't know why no one is offering him a contract. The only thing I am saying is that the fact the Flyers didn't can't be categorized as a mistake at this point in time. It very well may be that he has what it takes to be the next Roy, but doesn't want to come over here. If that is the case, how can you blame the Flyers for not signing a guy that doesn't want to sign here?

Quote:
i think we went through this not too long ago. i never called not signing him a mistake. you can go through all my posts, i never said that. i realize that others on here may have said that but you're responding to me not any of the others right now. what bothers me is the fact that as soon as someone says something along the lines of i hope they give eriksson a chance/shot or a contract (like myself) you comes out with your "this again?" comment. and again you completely ignored the possible reason i've provided for why he doesn't have a contract. they are completely logical and provide a possible explanation as to why he doesn't have a contract.
First of all, the initial posts I responded to were people directly saying things like they should have signed Eriksson or who recommended Hovinen over him, etc. And again, I haven't ignored the reasons you are saying, I even said it in this thread (go look through my posts). I think the first post I said in here said that a possible reason he is not here is because he may not want to be here. Here is my first post (outside of the "This AGain?" post):

Quote:
What that reason is, I have no idea (maybe he has a poor work ethic, maybe he isn't as good as you think, maybe he doesn't want to play over here, etc).
That was in post #57. Also, I would consider someone who doesn't want to play in NA, not NHL caliber.

Quote:
you also repeatedly say that since he's not signed that all NHL teams don't consider him to be worth a contract or in this very same post that he isn't NHL material and then you turn around and say this
I don't think I ever said he wasn't NHL caliber, I think I said that the fact he remains unsigned is an indication how the rest of the teams think about him.

Quote:
if he's not terrible and does have a shot then why then why in your eyes is he not worth a contract? oh cause he doesn't have a contract. that is called a logical fallacy.

i feel like we're starting to go in circles now.
The kid has talent, but talent doesn't mean he is worthy of an NHL contract. There are plenty of guys out there with talent that will never get an NHL contract. They all have a shot to, just like Eriksson does. The fact that he doesn't have an NHL contract, and never has, is more of an indicator of what NHL teams think of him than what people on the internet have to say about him.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 04:36 PM
  #106
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Because statistically, and according to those who had watched both at the time, Hovinen was more of a long shot/project than Eriksson.
Those on HFBoards who watched him or have a blog? Big deal. The Flyers didn't think so. The Oilers claimed Hovinen while Eriksson remains unsigned. I guess they screwed the pooch here too. Maybe you should link the Oilers GM to Eriksson's HockeryDB page?

Quote:
Surely, no other quality players have ever been overlooked by 29 other NHL teams. Surely, the Flyers have never made a mistake with goalies.
I never said that. What I said is that right now, you are basing your "mistake" argument on nothing. There is absolutely no evidence that a mistake was made. Ericksson is unsigned. He is not playing in the NHL or under control of any NHL organization. If the Flyers want to sign him, they can. Where is the mistake? What was wrong about the decision to continuously not sign Eriksson? Where is the negative?

Quote:
Perhaps because it's far harder to break into the world of goaltending. There are far, far fewer spots for goalies than skaters. Most teams have their spots filled. Lots of those spots are filled with guys with more experience in NA hockey and don't require adjustment time. Maybe the teams that need more goaltending now, can't afford to waste time developing a prospect, and those content with their prospects don't feel the need to use a contract slot on one more...especially since those guys will all be fighting for ice time in their system. Even in the world of backup goalies, most teams will prefer someone washed up with established NA experience than someone fresh out of Europe but with more potential.
Interesting take. I have never heard this argument before. No time to develop a prospect? Weird.

Quote:
Answer me this: if your goalie cupboard is pretty much empty, does it make sense to go with the guy generally recognized as being more established and who has the better overall chance of success? Or does it make more sense to go with someone with less chance of success and a spotty record?
It certainly makes sense to go with the better goalie. The Flyers didn't think Eriksson was that. You do. Based on nothing.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 05:03 PM
  #107
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Fair enough. Just pointing out that even record setting numbers in the SEL are not proof-positive of anything other than record setting numbers in the SEL.
that's fine. in my eyes nothing is a sure thing, especially not in hockey.

Quote:
Uhhh, this is exactly what I am saying. I don't know why no one is offering him a contract. The only thing I am saying is that the fact the Flyers didn't can't be categorized as a mistake at this point in time. It very well may be that he has what it takes to be the next Roy, but doesn't want to come over here. If that is the case, how can you blame the Flyers for not signing a guy that doesn't want to sign here?
you will get no argument from me on that. i don't see it as a mistake. i just think that if he is willing to come over and there are no other issues, then the Flyers should look into offering him a contract. Boucher, Munroe and Leighton are more then likely all gone when there contracts expire at the end of this season. Heeter will be in the AHL and Anthony Stolarz will be in juniors for a couple more year. That leaves very little/no goalie depth and the flyers will be forced to go the FA route and there aren't very many options out there. I was talking to some Swedes over on the European hockey board and they said Eriksson will be the best available FA goalie out of Sweden this summer. This past summer Fasth, Nilstorp and Svedberg all signed with NHL teams. The first two are current NHL back-ups and the latter is an AHL All-Star. They also said they consider Eriksson ready to take the next step in his career and he's gotten better every year. No guarantees of course, after all we are just "internet people". i'm not saying he's a great goalie or a sure thing, just that the flyers don't have many options and he could potentially help them out. i just though you should understand some of my reasoning behind my desire to see the Flyers sign him.

Quote:
First of all, the initial posts I responded to were people directly saying things like they should have signed Eriksson or who recommended Hovinen over him, etc. And again, I haven't ignored the reasons you are saying, I even said it in this thread (go look through my posts). I think the first post I said in here said that a possible reason he is not here is because he may not want to be here. Here is my first post (outside of the "This AGain?" post):
my apologize. i though you were referring to everyone suggesting he get a contract and you only quoted a random few. so if i understand you correctly, you only take issue with those who believe the Flyers made a mistake and not someone such as myself.

Quote:
That was in post #57. Also, I would consider someone who doesn't want to play in NA, not NHL caliber.
out of curiosity, why? caliber by definition means "degree of excellence or importance". just cause a player doesn't have the desire to play in NA doesn't make them not NHL caliber. just my opinion.

Quote:
The kid has talent, but talent doesn't mean he is worthy of an NHL contract. There are plenty of guys out there with talent that will never get an NHL contract. They all have a shot to, just like Eriksson does. The fact that he doesn't have an NHL contract, and never has, is more of an indicator of what NHL teams think of him than what people on the internet have to say about him.
but it doesn't, they could think very highly of him but if there is a reason (like him not wanting to come over to NA for example) then him not having a contract means -273.15 degrees C.


Last edited by FlyersFan61290: 01-26-2013 at 05:09 PM.
FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-26-2013, 06:50 PM
  #108
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
that's fine. in my eyes nothing is a sure thing, especially not in hockey.



you will get no argument from me on that. i don't see it as a mistake. i just think that if he is willing to come over and there are no other issues, then the Flyers should look into offering him a contract. Boucher, Munroe and Leighton are more then likely all gone when there contracts expire at the end of this season. Heeter will be in the AHL and Anthony Stolarz will be in juniors for a couple more year. That leaves very little/no goalie depth and the flyers will be forced to go the FA route and there aren't very many options out there. I was talking to some Swedes over on the European hockey board and they said Eriksson will be the best available FA goalie out of Sweden this summer. This past summer Fasth, Nilstorp and Svedberg all signed with NHL teams. The first two are current NHL back-ups and the latter is an AHL All-Star. They also said they consider Eriksson ready to take the next step in his career and he's gotten better every year. No guarantees of course, after all we are just "internet people". i'm not saying he's a great goalie or a sure thing, just that the flyers don't have many options and he could potentially help them out. i just though you should understand some of my reasoning behind my desire to see the Flyers sign him.
That is totally fine. I have no problem with wanting to sign him. I wouldn't be opposed to signing him (which is pretty much my whole argument...that I, like most people on here, have not seen anything more than a few clips and cuts of his play and read a couple articles, but I will trust the 30 NHL organizations that aren't offering a contract, just like signing a guy I know nothing about I will trust the guys who have seen him...if the Flyers decide, hey this guy could actually be something and sign him, I'm not going to argue about a guy I have never even seen play an entire game). I just have a problem with people acting like this is some big mistake that was made and they saw it coming and know better than the NHL scouts that are paid to scout him, based on nothing else than the fact that they saw his name listed on the Flyers top prospects list a couple years ago. If people were simply saying, "Hey the Flyers should go after this guy," I would have no problem with it. It is the people saying Homer is wrong, made a mistake, and they knew it etc. that bugs me.

Quote:
my apologize. i though you were referring to everyone suggesting he get a contract and you only quoted a random few. so if i understand you correctly, you only take issue with those who believe the Flyers made a mistake and not someone such as myself.
Exactly.

Quote:
out of curiosity, why? caliber by definition means "degree of excellence or importance". just cause a player doesn't have the desire to play in NA doesn't make them not NHL caliber. just my opinion.
I would think someone who doesn't have the desire to play against the best competition in the world, while he may have the talent or skill, he is not the same caliber. I guess I'd consider that part of his mentality/work ethic, which is part of the larger picture of any prospect.

Quote:
but it doesn't, they could think very highly of him but if there is a reason (like him not wanting to come over to NA for example) then him not having a contract means -273.15 degrees C.
Well yeah it does. Even if the reason is he says he doesn't want to come to North America (which I think is just speculation by people in this thread, haha), NHL teams are going to stay away from him. By not offering him a contract, there is no other explanation other than they don't think he'll ever play for them. I am not trying to be a dick, but if a team thought he was good enough and they thought he could be on their team at some point, they would have offered him a contract. If teams did and he turned them down because he doesn't want to go to NA, well then no other teams are going to waste time on him because they know he isn't coming, ergo they don't think he is worth an NHL contract.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-27-2013, 04:14 PM
  #109
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 8,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Well yeah it does. Even if the reason is he says he doesn't want to come to North America (which I think is just speculation by people in this thread, haha), NHL teams are going to stay away from him. By not offering him a contract, there is no other explanation other than they don't think he'll ever play for them. I am not trying to be a dick, but if a team thought he was good enough and they thought he could be on their team at some point, they would have offered him a contract. If teams did and he turned them down because he doesn't want to go to NA, well then no other teams are going to waste time on him because they know he isn't coming, ergo they don't think he is worth an NHL contract.
well i guess i just take issue with your wording then. i agree with everything up until the end. they wouldn't waste their time not because he's not worth an NHL contract but because they know trying to sign him is futile. I realize this whole scenario of him not wanting to come to NA for some reason is just wild speculation but just for arguments sake say that is the case. that doesn't make him not worthy of a contract. again i know what you're saying i just don't agree at all with you choice of words. whatever

FlyersFan61290 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:36 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.