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P.K. Subban Thread - MK VIII - 'Week-end of Angst' Edition

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01-26-2013, 01:39 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
A poster like you with usually good common sense really beleive Bergevin is screwing up in that case ?

There is way toomany unknows to judge it.

We should all keep our heads cold.
no this should have been dealt with plain and simple.this isnt dallas or colorado.in montreal this kinda of thing can blow up in a very short time.and the end result could very well be pk going to another team and bergevin being fired.then what are we left with?

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01-26-2013, 01:39 PM
  #577
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Oh give me a break.
We all know he grew up being a Habs fan, so it's only natural that he thinks the world of the Habs. That doesn't mean it is EVERYTHING to him.
And just because he 'loves' the city doesn't mean he would want to 'live' in the city. I love Hawaii, Tokyo, San Fran, etc. that doesn't mean I want to live there.

If the reason for him being in Toronto is because of family, will you accept that? Or is that not acceptable?
Yeah. I'll accept that.

I was wrong. Sorry for antagonizing the folks here, not my type.

But I still would have preferred he'd come a little.

And still think he should take the money and aim at making MORE than Doughty in his next deal. I'll support him doing that :-p

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01-26-2013, 01:41 PM
  #578
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Well that didn't take long. Looks like everyone's ready to run Bergevin out of town already.

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01-26-2013, 01:42 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
A poster like you with usually good common sense really beleive Bergevin is screwing up in that case ?

There is way too many unknowns to judge it.

We should all keep our heads cold.
the snake is king **** on here bud.sorry.most on here(including myself)are just rambling lunatics venting our frustration.read his stuff and you will see what i mean.

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01-26-2013, 01:42 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
If what RDS says is true, that offer is a joke.
Well that offer is based on what Price got in 2010-11 which was 2 years @ 5.5M$. It's 400K$ less I think MB should of offered the same 5.5M$. I hope MB at least boosted the offer to that amount. I don't think PK proved to be much better than Price when he got that contract.

Rumors say that the two parties are 2.5M$/yr to 3M$/yr apart. Meaning Subban is probably asking for 5 years @ 5.8M$ average. I really don't understand why PK simply doesn't take the two years and ask for 5.5M$. In about a year + 3 months from now he'd be negotiating for 6.5M$ a year.

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01-26-2013, 01:44 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Every sane human being knows that Subban had ALREADY made the difference and that he WILL be the player that we mostly all think he will. Do you seriously think that half of a season this year and just 1 more season is needed to really know what PK is all about?

You might have a bridge contract when 2 things happen. When you didn't have a whole lot of time to evaluate the player in his ELC...or when the players has NO leverage whatsoever, whether he's a totally replaceable player or just didn't have a great 3 years after all. Subban was lights out in his 1st year he played in the AHL. He was dominant. Then, 1st year in the league, he was great....IN THE PLAYOFFS! Then, in somewhat of his sophomore season, he had 14 goals and a decent 38 points. And in the catastrophy season we had last year, the guy still was able to have the same number of points going from a -8 to a +9. OF COURSE, Price and Pacioretty accepted the 2-year contracts...WHAT THE **** DID THEY DO to demand more? Subban was nothing more but great during his ELC. He had some tough moments..no ****....Who the hell don't have tougher moments? So not only he's very good at what he does, not only he's THE ONLY prospect we have that comes close to what he does, he also brings the element of entertainment that this sport is also allowed to entertain. THIS GUY is in a class of his own and if I would be him, I'd be so offended right now.

And if the real reason is that Bergevin has to prove that he's tough or that he has to show the world that he's a man of his words and that everybody will need to go throught that process, well it tells me that this GM has no vision, thinks of how he looks FIRST and I'd then hate to play for this team. Sorry Bergevin, but if that's your goal, other players will not see as you're a man of principles, they'll see it as you're a dumb manager.

Again....this is all on IF'S. Let's hope he'd not dumb. Let's hope we'er totally off. Doesn't seem so though. But let's give him a chance to prove he's worth our time and patience.
Thank you for elegantly expressing the feeling of many fans around here (including me). If what RL said was right then Bergevin committed one of the most deadly sins: PRIDE.

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01-26-2013, 01:44 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
no this should have been dealt with plain and simple.this isnt dallas or colorado.in montreal this kinda of thing can blow up in a very short time.and the end result could very well be pk going to another team and bergevin being fired.then what are we left with?
IF Bergevin is really sticking to his gun (same offer since last May), then I think he really wants to get rid od PK whatsoever for whatever reasons that we don't know about.

But he better come up with bulletproof reasons and / or an amazing trade .

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01-26-2013, 01:44 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
If he plays with the same energy and passion and irons out some of his weaknesses (Giveaways, he's brutal at them, amongst others), he'll deserve MORE than Doughty's. His talent is not an issue for anyone.

His character is. And more specifically, he has to learn the world doesn't revolve around him. If he doesn't speak in the room or the music he likes doesn't play, it's ok.

He can be as much of a star as he wants on the ice, but his teammates have come out in the press to say his character could be overbearing at times. Just tone it down a little PK, still be you, but turn the volume down a little. And win Norris Trophies all you want.
So let me understand, talent not an issue but his character is?

Does he take shifts off on the ice? No
Is he a warrior? Yes
Can he carry a heavy workload? Yes
Does he work hard off ice? Incredibly
Is he accessible to media and fans? Incredibly
Has he ever been mentioned in any scandalous type behavior?No
Does he come from a close-knit good family? Tes

To me that above shows character. What you are referring to is his personality. This is where the slippery slope of racism comes from. Yes he is brash, flashy, exuberant, slightly immature (but not unlike 22 year olds) but he does not deserve the character assassinations that haters seems to bestow on him.

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01-26-2013, 01:46 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
If he plays with the same energy and passion and irons out some of his weaknesses (Giveaways, he's brutal at them, amongst others), he'll deserve MORE than Doughty's. His talent is not an issue for anyone.

His character is. And more specifically, he has to learn the world doesn't revolve around him. If he doesn't speak in the room or the music he likes doesn't play, it's ok.

He can be as much of a star as he wants on the ice, but his teammates have come out in the press to say his character could be overbearing at times. Just tone it down a little PK, still be you, but turn the volume down a little. And win Norris Trophies all you want.
I will never buy this. Sorry, but if you judge PK's character, I'll judge our vets character as well. Do you seriously think that a guy like Mark Messier would accept any of what PK, the devil, is suppose to be doing? I name Messier but name me 200 hundres more character vets even in this present league, and they would have punched PK in the face if he was THAT bad in a dressing room. Sorry, but this makes me laugh. I do recall all those times that Sergei Kostitsyn was awful and he wouldn't last in Nashville. Still there. How many years did Ribeiro this awful punk lasted in Dallas? I can tell you, I kept reading all those posts about him not lasting. I remember people bashing Lapierre for thinking solely about himself and not thinking about his team first...this selfish player is still with the Nucks. And so on.....Strangely, the Habs seemed to have all the selfish and all the devils' players in their team. Way more than any other team. Geez, we're so unlucky with our players. Either that or we were lacking some serious leadership before. And we might be lacking some right now as well....though I would suspect Prust to calm the PK down if Gionta can't do it. Unless it takes younger guys like Pacioretty and Price to calm him down as well. IFFFFFFFFFFFF he's that bad...which I suspect he isn't. And my proof is all about the vets comments we saw about Galchenyuk. Alex seems to be extremely quiet. And our vets looooooove that. To which it makes me believe that whoever has a higher pitch voice...isn't appreciated. To which I say.....who cares. Grow up vets and learn to work with all sorts of people. We're doing at our own work....you should be able to do it at your work.

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01-26-2013, 01:47 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Dekar View Post
Well that didn't take long. Looks like everyone's ready to run Bergevin out of town already.
For insisting on a 2 years 5.1 for PK, he should not be the GM of the Habs. Period.

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01-26-2013, 01:47 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Dekar View Post
Well that didn't take long. Looks like everyone's ready to run Bergevin out of town already.
ya and he should(and will) be run outta town if he screws this up .how could he not be? .can we expect the same treatment for galchenyuk,gallagher ,tinordi ,bealieu etc as well?he is really showing how green he is as a gm.i honestly dont think gauthier would have taken this route.and thats saying alot.

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01-26-2013, 01:47 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Thank you for elegantly expressing the feeling of many fans around here (including me). If what RL said was right then Bergevin committed one of the most deadly sins: PRIDE.
how far has PRIDE gotten the habs in the last 20 years??

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01-26-2013, 01:49 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
so you wanna risk losing him?this is a massive misstep by mb.i could see his point if we had a young version of pk in the minorsbut we dont. there is no one else in our system who has the tools pk does.
We can't loose him. We can miss him for an entire season and he can loose alot of money in the process.
If it was Marc Bergevin second year with the habs, I would not understand the need for the bridge contract, but in the situation we are in, it is best for the habs to pay 5 m$ more in the next 6 years for Subban then risk having a big contract on a good for nothing defenseman in 2 years from now.

We don't know if Subban will be as good as he was in the last 2 years and we don't know if he is a problem for the coachs. All we know is that the organisation still believe he has to prove himself. I believe in the new management team, hence I prefer a short contract too.

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01-26-2013, 01:51 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And my proof is all about the vets comments we saw about Galchenyuk. Alex seems to be extremely quiet. And our vets looooooove that. To which it makes me believe that whoever has a higher pitch voice...isn't appreciated. To which I say.....who cares. Grow up vets and learn to work with all sorts of people. We're doing at our own work....you should be able to do it at your work.
Did you catch how careful he was with his words during that TSN segment about whether Yakupov's goal celebration was insulting or not? You could feel all of the eyes on him making sure he didn't say it was great for him to do. So Galchenyuk said that's the kind of player he was. Smart politics but boy is it a shame to be a hockey fan sometimes. Too often it reminds me of how people acted when Tiger Woods started winning PGA Championships. The old boys club just came out shining.


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01-26-2013, 01:52 PM
  #590
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If he agrees for 3,5, great but he deserves to be the third most paid defenseman on this team right now behind Marvov and Kaberle who have way more experience than him.
You mean it's great for PK Subban by 0.5M. I think he can subsist on 3.5 just fine. It's worse for the Habs. There's no reason why the talent level must directly follow the money, that's not how the NHL works and there are reasons why the concept of RFA and UFA and ELC exist. PK isn't going to play 0.5M harder if he gets 4M as opposed to 3.5. I expect him to come out like gangbusters no matter what deal he signs.

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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
1) Getting UFA and be **** towards one of your most promising RFA is not a good policy.
2) Had he signed PK there is not much of a need to sign Bouillon
3) MB is a GM. His job is to set priorities on which player to sign.
4) You put the burden on PK and blame him for not signing the contract. Put yourself on PK shoes, what would you so if the team offered you the same salary as Prust, and according to the journalists, has not moved away from that offer the whole summer.
1) Let's roll things back to the offseason, when PK wasn't even negotiating his contract. The Prust signing looks like a great one, what more can I say? It wasn't Prust OVER PK. PK wasn't in play at the time. If you're looking down the road, retrospectively, PK is an RFA and without banging my head against a wall again, the policy of him signing a 2 year deal is NOT ridiculous by any means. Bergevin's plans for PK were perfectly fair until the primadonna (I wish he hadn't made me think of him this way) decided he would leverage his popularity to go against the grain in the Montreal Canadiens organization.

2) Again, during RFA season, there was not much happening with PK. That AND Boullion will be a very important depth defenseman, if not the 6th. You're again using post-hoc analysis of PK's holdout (which was unexpected) to judge a pretty decent signing and one that Therrien (I think we can almost be sure) requested.

3) What if PK was the one too busy with stuff to sit down and negotiate? Was MB supposed to do nothing during the UFA season? His job then was to get some good depth and gritty players - which he did. PK's RFA bs, AGAIN, is a situation none of us expected to happen. Be honest. Did you really think he wouldn't sign a typical run of the mill contract that was 1M+ more than Patches and Price? I'm glad MB did what he did and that PK didn't hold up the UFA signing process.

4) I'll answer your question, but I doubt you'll believe me. Prust is a UFA. We got him because of what he has proven on a top NHL team. We paid him that much cuz that's how much it costs to get Brandon Prust on your team. If I'm PK Subban, coming off an ELC, loving MTL, loving the Habs...I'll tell you what I do - I sign a 2 year contract worth 2.5-3M/year and DON'T create the drama that he has. If PK loves the Habs as much as I do (which supposedly he does), is playing for them, has just finished his ELC, his friends on the team went through the same process (I wouldn't for a second pull the "what I'm worth" stuff), I would have, in his shoes, signed MB's original contract when it became clear that this GM was ready to win a Stanley Cup, not give out merit badges. (And gratuitous ones at that!)

Since I suppose I have to state it lest it appears as though I'm a hater:

I LOVE P.K. I want him back ASAP. I'm tired of this crap. I'm more worn out than Bergevin so being weaker than him, I will just accept giving him an overpayment to satisfy his ego. If this deal does happen, I don't want to hear a god damn complaint from all those in the "he's the franchise - give him what he wants" camp, if he falters.

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01-26-2013, 01:53 PM
  #591
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We don't know if Subban will be as good as he was in the last 2 years and we don't know if he is a problem for the coachs. All we know is that the organisation still believe he has to prove himself. I believe in the new management team, hence I prefer a short contract too.
The same management team that offered PK 5.1 for 2 years. From RL, they have not changed that offer the whole summer, and yet they are willing to throw 2.5M to Prust. I do not want to hear the UFA and RFA BS. The value of the contract should reflect the worth of the player. If you gave Prust 2.5M, then be ready for 4/4.5 for PK.

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01-26-2013, 01:55 PM
  #592
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Unless I'm mistaken, hasn't Subban always trained in Toronto with Tavares, Hodgson, etc? Would make sense for him to continue if that's true and be a reason why he didn't train in Montreal with the team.

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01-26-2013, 01:56 PM
  #593
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ya and he should(and will) be run outta town if he screws this up .how could he not be? .can we expect the same treatment for galchenyuk,gallagher ,tinordi ,bealieu etc as well?he is really showing how green he is as a gm.i honestly dont think gauthier would have taken this route.and thats saying alot.
There's some irony in your statement. I'll let you spot it.

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01-26-2013, 01:56 PM
  #594
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We don't know if Subban will be as good as he was in the last 2 years and we don't know if he is a problem for the coachs.
Sorry, but if that's what management thinks, there's only 1 option. Trade him. If, despite what I said and what PK has proven, you are still not sure of what he can give you and you're nervous he might be a dressing room proble, there is NO reason why you would take that issue and make it what it is right now. The idea is to trade a guy when he's hot to get a better return. If it's just a question of evaluation, well other teams have their own evaluation and might think the world out of him. So you don't drag this eternally so that the value of your player might degrade to this point. And you know that at the very 1st meeting you have with Subban and his agent. The philosophy and the gap HAD to be incredibly big at that point so that each sides' first thought had to be that it was going to be a very difficult process. And it is. To a point now that everyboyd is unhappy, the GM hates his player's guts for making him look so bad, the player hate his GM's evaluation of him, some interested teams might hate the fact that Subban looks like he demands a whole lot which might make them afraid of him and what he'd ask for so that in trade talks, it comes into play etc...

So it all comes down to evaluation. Like we could have afforded to get of McDonagh 'cause we were getting this great future hall of famer centerman and we didn't need a rather "declining" McDonagh who had an average WJC AND we had a Subban in our ranks......Professionnals do make some STUPID reasoning from time to time. And it looks like our very actual own is working on his 1st right now. I will say that he already looks bad as it is. Their is some damage done NO MATTER if PK signs or not. Yet, I would't call Bergevin a failure....let's be realistic and give the guy some time. But I do have to say that how Hamilton was build this year was a mistake. And now the PK stupid reality show is another one.

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01-26-2013, 01:56 PM
  #595
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Well that didn't take long. Looks like everyone's ready to run Bergevin out of town already.
Well, he seems to have painted himself into a corner. Really, the best thing for the team would be for Bergevin to admit he was wrong about Subban's value, and present a dramatically better offer. It's just hard to see that happening. I mean, to be sticking to the original offer even now that the season is underway, that doesn't look like a compromise waiting to happen, does it?

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01-26-2013, 01:58 PM
  #596
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The same management team that offered PK 5.1 for 2 years. From RL, they have not changed that offer the whole summer, and yet they are willing to throw 2.5M to Prust. I do not want to hear the UFA and RFA BS. The value of the contract should reflect the worth of the player. If you gave Prust 2.5M, then be ready for 4/4.5 for PK.
the vaunted management team of dudley carriere and bergevin?

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01-26-2013, 01:59 PM
  #597
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You mean it's great for PK Subban by 0.5M. I think he can subsist on 3.5 just fine. It's worse for the Habs. There's no reason why the talent level must directly follow the money, that's not how the NHL works and there are reasons why the concept of RFA and UFA and ELC exist. PK isn't going to play 0.5M harder if he gets 4M as opposed to 3.5. I expect him to come out like gangbusters no matter what deal he signs.



1) Let's roll things back to the offseason, when PK wasn't even negotiating his contract. The Prust signing looks like a great one, what more can I say? It wasn't Prust OVER PK. PK wasn't in play at the time. If you're looking down the road, retrospectively, PK is an RFA and without banging my head against a wall again, the policy of him signing a 2 year deal is NOT ridiculous by any means. Bergevin's plans for PK were perfectly fair until the primadonna (I wish he hadn't made me think of him this way) decided he would leverage his popularity to go against the grain in the Montreal Canadiens organization.

2) Again, during RFA season, there was not much happening with PK. That AND Boullion will be a very important depth defenseman, if not the 6th. You're again using post-hoc analysis of PK's holdout (which was unexpected) to judge a pretty decent signing and one that Therrien (I think we can almost be sure) requested.

3) What if PK was the one too busy with stuff to sit down and negotiate? Was MB supposed to do nothing during the UFA season? His job then was to get some good depth and gritty players - which he did. PK's RFA bs, AGAIN, is a situation none of us expected to happen. Be honest. Did you really think he wouldn't sign a typical run of the mill contract that was 1M+ more than Patches and Price? I'm glad MB did what he did and that PK didn't hold up the UFA signing process.

4) I'll answer your question, but I doubt you'll believe me. Prust is a UFA. We got him because of what he has proven on a top NHL team. We paid him that much cuz that's how much it costs to get Brandon Prust on your team. If I'm PK Subban, coming off an ELC, loving MTL, loving the Habs...I'll tell you what I do - I sign a 2 year contract worth 2.5-3M/year and DON'T create the drama that he has. If PK loves the Habs as much as I do (which supposedly he does), is playing for them, has just finished his ELC, his friends on the team went through the same process (I wouldn't for a second pull the "what I'm worth" stuff), I would have, in his shoes, signed MB's original contract when it became clear that this GM was ready to win a Stanley Cup, not give out merit badges. (And gratuitous ones at that!)

Since I suppose I have to state it lest it appears as though I'm a hater:

I LOVE P.K. I want him back ASAP. I'm tired of this crap. I'm more worn out than Bergevin so being weaker than him, I will just accept giving him an overpayment to satisfy his ego. If this deal does happen, I don't want to hear a god damn complaint from all those in the "he's the franchise - give him what he wants" camp, if he falters.
We have to agree to disagree then. If MB is a good GM like you said, PK contract is not in such a mess. We will revisit this issue when MB trade PK away and we will see if you still has such a high opinion on MB. Frankly, I have been impressed with PK so far because he has not asked for a trade yet. If I was PK, I would have asked for a trade already and be labeled as a primadonna by you.

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01-26-2013, 02:00 PM
  #598
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If Subban had played 19-20 minutes as a #4-5 last year then MB's "bridge" contract philosophy would be ok...but he's surpassed the curve and is where Price was last summer(this off season) or darn close.

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01-26-2013, 02:00 PM
  #599
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So let me understand, talent not an issue but his character is?

Does he take shifts off on the ice? No
Is he a warrior? Yes
Can he carry a heavy workload? Yes
Does he work hard off ice? Incredibly
Is he accessible to media and fans? Incredibly
Has he ever been mentioned in any scandalous type behavior?No
Does he come from a close-knit good family? Tes

To me that above shows character. What you are referring to is his personality. This is where the slippery slope of racism comes from. Yes he is brash, flashy, exuberant, slightly immature (but not unlike 22 year olds) but he does not deserve the character assassinations that haters seems to bestow on him.
It makes no sense. I knee writing was on the wall when therrien singled him out and said how he'd make him become a better hockey player. For whatever reason the have don't want PK unless its at a bargain "bridge". He will be traded whether a deal is signed or not. Begy better frigging hope he gets serious overpayment to justify the deal.

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01-26-2013, 02:00 PM
  #600
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Sorry, but if that's what management thinks, there's only 1 option. Trade him. If, despite what I said and what PK has proven, you are still not sure of what he can give you and you're nervous he might be a dressing room proble, there is NO reason why you would take that issue and make it what it is right now. The idea is to trade a guy when he's hot to get a better return. If it's just a question of evaluation, well other teams have their own evaluation and might think the world out of him. So you don't drag this eternally so that the value of your player might degrade to this point. And you know that at the very 1st meeting you have with Subban and his agent. The philosophy and the gap HAD to be incredibly big at that point so that each sides' first thought had to be that it was going to be a very difficult process. And it is. To a point now that everyboyd is unhappy, the GM hates his player's guts for making him look so bad, the player hate his GM's evaluation of him, some interested teams might hate the fact that Subban looks like he demands a whole lot which might make them afraid of him and what he'd ask for so that in trade talks, it comes into play etc...

So it all comes down to evaluation. Like we could have afforded to get of McDonagh 'cause we were getting this great future hall of famer centerman and we didn't need a rather "declining" McDonagh who had an average WJC AND we had a Subban in our ranks......Professionnals do make some STUPID reasoning from time to time. And it looks like our very actual own is working on his 1st right now. I will say that he already looks bad as it is. Their is some damage done NO MATTER if PK signs or not. Yet, I would't call Bergevin a failure....let's be realistic and give the guy some time. But I do have to say that how Hamilton was build this year was a mistake. And now the PK stupid reality show is another one.
exactly cause the longer this drags on the less we get in a return if he's traded.and if it gets to the point where pk requets a trade his value will drop even more.

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