Talent on the ice can not be denied but characters can be assassinated. PK is intense during games and during practices. That could rub his teammate the wrong way. Do we have to chase every talented players out of Montreal because of "characters" issues. Everything has two sides. When Yakupov slided across the length of the ice to celebrate his goal, some people accused him of excessive celebration while others praised him for loving the games. We have lost enough good players under the mantra "Nobody is above the team". Stop the madness.
We are not inside the team. We do not know all. But maybe the Subban's attitude problem is bigger than we thought. We can not exclude this hypothesis, especially by the way Bergevin manages this sitution. Surely there must be a problem that we do not fully understand, if not Subban would be already signed with the money he wants...
So he signed Prust for 2.5M and expect PK to be paid the same as Prust? MB will ask PK to be paid much lower and expect PK to accept his offer otherwise everyone here will label PK as "above the team"?
That's a poor comparison. Prust was UFA and suitors are openly bidding for his services. PK doesn't have the same leverage.
Not sure how I conveniently ommitted anything. The opposite is true for PK.
How is that understandable? In both cases there is a discrepancy for term, but there is also a discrepancy for $$$ in PK's case.
It's understandable that a player wants a shorter term with high dollar amount coming off his ELC so he can cash in later with a stronger statistical case. That's why teams tend to want to ink their talented players coming off ELC to longer deals because they can offer security and negotiate from a position of strenght since the player has not proven himself yet.
But Bergevin is doing the opposite, negotiating against himself trying to get PK to sign short term, only to have to inevitably pay the big bucks later. It's really dumb.
Exactly. PK is way too undisciplined and makes a few too many defensive gaffes to be paid like one of the top Ds in the game. Bergevin just doesn't have much wiggle room to pay him for his high potential right now.
Subban draws more penalties than he concedes. He's a high risk, high reward player...and yet is a net positive.
The idea that gaffes are a Subban exclusive is a myth among Habs fans who are afraid to overrate their own players. Many of the leagues high skilled defensemen are guilty of this. Watch Doughty and you will see many of the same mistakes - to a lesser degree (one reason Doughty is worth more), but they are there.
Why are the Habs stuck on this "Bridge" idea, when other teams aren't? What makes this philosophy better than other teams' philosophies of taking risks and investing in talent to build winners?
Yes, we got burned by Gomez, but that was a breakdown in scouting, not finances. The Habs are one of the richest teams in the league -- haven't we learned yet that we need to spend that money to get quality players?
Why are the Habs stuck on this "Bridge" idea, when other teams aren't? What makes this philosophy better than other teams' philosophies of taking risks and investing in talent to build winners?
Yes, we got burned by Gomez, but that was a breakdown in scouting, not finances. The Habs are one of the richest teams in the league -- haven't we learned yet that we need to spend that money to get quality players?
I hate, hate, hate when policy becomes dogma.
Gomez was a "proven" vet when we traded for him too, if anything that was another case of underrating our own farm to rely on veteran "leadership" The whole reason they are concerned about cap space to begin with is because the Habs have been overpaying free agent vets due to a history of mistreating our own prospects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedved
lol. looks like a lot more than the numbers represent and that's, again, with garbage for the rest of the players on the team.
of course their production might increase .50 to.53 but we're still losing games. this is a team game.
here's my telling stat:
dead last in the east when he is our number 1. yes, he is a very good player, no, he is not a true number 1 yet.
The Islanders have been to the lotto for the past two years with Taveres as their number 1 center. What a bum, they should trade him to us for Desharnais or Eller.
We are not inside the team. We do not know all. But maybe the Subban's attitude problem is bigger than we thought. We can not exclude this hypothesis, especially by the way Bergevin manages this sitution. Surely there must be a problem that we do not fully understand, if not Subban would be already signed...
So you agree that we will ship PK out just like we did with Roy, Chelios, Charbonneau, etc. Good players have characters. You have to work with the players instead of trying to figure out a way to dump them and not looking bad. I can tell you that if the Habs does not change their way of handling their players, we are not going to see the Cup in our life time.
Why are the Habs stuck on this "Bridge" idea, when other teams aren't? What makes this philosophy better than other teams' philosophies of taking risks and investing in talent to build winners?
Yes, we got burned by Gomez, but that was a breakdown in scouting, not finances. The Habs are one of the richest teams in the league -- haven't we learned yet that we need to spend that money to get quality players?
I hate, hate, hate when policy becomes dogma.
Just go to CAPGGEK and check out the budget for the habs this year and next year.
This year they have already - without PK - almost 64 million $, and just 6 million in cap space.
Next year, the cap space will be at 64 million. Of course they can buy out Kaberle and let some fringe players like Armstrong and Noke walk away, but they have only 16 players under contract and about 10 milion $ to deal with.
That is a MAJOR reason why bergevin wants PK at the best price as possible.
First thing to happen if no contract is signed?
1- PK requests a trade?
2- PK signs an offer sheet?
3- MB unilaterally trades PK?
3- 1-2-3 don't happen and PK sits the whole season?
Is there anyone in the world that's going to say something other than good job if MB signs PK to 4-4.5 million over 2 years?
How does he need to save face? He's coming off like a complete moron right now.
If he signs PK to that contract I will be ecstatic to have PK on the ice, but I will reserve my judgement until two years later to see if PK signs long term here and how much it costs us then.
We are not inside the team. We do not know all. But maybe the Subban's attitude problem is bigger than we thought. We can not exclude this hypothesis, especially by the way Bergevin manages this sitution. Surely there must be a problem that we do not fully understand, if not Subban would be already signed with the money he wants...
Because you have a hypothesis that Subban has a big attitude issue does not mean that "surely" there is a problem with him that we don't understand.
Your post presumes that MB is being reasonable with the information, and that the offer itself is reasonable. Which is quite problematic when trying to decide just who is or is not being unreasonable.
Just go to CAPGGEK and check out the budget for the habs this year and next year.
This year they have already - without PK - almost 64 million $, and just 6 million in cap space.
Next year, the cap space will be at 64 million. Of course they can buy out Kaberle and let some fringe players like Armstronk and Noke walk away, but they have only 16 players under contract and about 10 milion $ to deal with.
That is a MAJOR reason why bergevin wants PK at the best price as possible.
11 million with 16 players signed and Kaberle on the books for 4.25 is hardly dire straights. They could sign PK to 7 million and easily make it work. Bad argument
First thing to happen if no contract is signed?
1- PK requests a trade?
2- PK signs an offer sheet?
3- MB unilaterally trades PK?
3- 1-2-3 don't happen and PK sits the whole season?
So you agree that we will ship PK out just like we did with Roy, Chelios, Charbonneau, etc. Good players have characters. You have to work with the players instead of trying to figure out a way to dump them and not looking bad. I can tell you that if the Habs does not change their way of handling their players, we are not going to see the Cup in our life time.
Roy, one of the best goalie in history...
Chelios, 3X Norris winner...
Carbonneau, the best defensive C of his era...
So you agree that we will ship PK out just like we did with Roy, Chelios, Charbonneau, etc. Good players have characters. You have to work with the players instead of trying to figure out a way to dump them and not looking bad. I can tell you that if the Habs does not change their way of handling their players, we are not going to see the Cup in our life time.
I am not agree because I do not know all the story, I*am not inside the team. But if it is true, my best case scenario would be to sign Subban with a short year contract like Bergevin does... And to hope Therrien will be able to make Subban a better team player.
If he signs PK to that contract I will be ecstatic to have PK on the ice, but I will reserve my judgement until two years later to see if PK signs long term here and how much it costs us then.
Exactly! But you're not like "OMG 4.5 is too much, more like, oh **** it's only 2 years he'll probably need a massive contract afterwards"
Personally I'm worried that this low ball tactic is going to sour Subban and his camp to the point where he asks for a trade.
11 million with 16 players signed and Kaberle on the books for 4.25 is hardly dire straights. They could sign PK to 7 million and easily make it work. Bad argument
11 mil with 7 players to sign, looks like we're the next TB Bolts...
here's my telling stat:
dead last in the east when he is our number 1. yes, he is a very good player, no, he is not a true number 1 yet.
Do you seriously mean this? Is this the product of sober reflection? What you're just saying is that great players, who deserve to be compensated, don't play on last place teams. Right?
Because you have a hypothesis that Subban has a big attitude issue does not mean that "surely" there is a problem withhim that we don't understand.
Your post presumes that MB is being reasonable with the information, and that the offer itself is reasonable. Which is quite problematic when trying to decide just who is or is not being unreasonable.
All the reports about him over the last two years are false... The fact that he was sent to the pressbox 4 times in two years means nothing ?
