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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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01-25-2013, 09:37 PM
  #426
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What are you talking about? The cupboard is not full, at all. Name me one sure fire no 1 line star wing prospect we have. Zero.

For people to actually think this club plus our current prospects will be a contender next year or the year after is absurd. We need one more Gally level forward prospect, without question.
ok, not only we need more, but now it needs to be at a specific position...

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01-25-2013, 10:38 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Some of these guys might not have even been on the roster.
If Diaz had spent the first 15-20 games in Hamilton I don't think it would have hurt him

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01-25-2013, 10:39 PM
  #428
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If Diaz had spent the first 15-20 games in Hamilton I don't think it would have hurt him
But playing in the NHL helped him. Ditto with Emelin. I'm glad these guys got a chance to play in the NHL last year aren't you?

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01-25-2013, 10:45 PM
  #429
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But playing in the NHL helped him. Ditto with Emelin. I'm glad these guys got a chance to play in the NHL last year aren't you?
Diaz is 27, Emelin will be in three months... so much for getting youngsters on D

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01-25-2013, 11:10 PM
  #430
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But playing in the NHL helped him. Ditto with Emelin. I'm glad these guys got a chance to play in the NHL last year aren't you?
Yes I am glad he was in the NHL but even if Markov had been healthy to start the season, Emelin would still have been in the NHL, and Diaz would have more than likely have gotten his chance as well once we started getting injuries or if he started to dominate the AHL.

But you said Diaz and Emelin would not have developed if Markov had been around and I think that's complete bull. Markov would have helped both a ton.

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01-25-2013, 11:13 PM
  #431
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Yes I am glad he was in the NHL but even if Markov had been healthy to start the season, Emelin would still have been in the NHL, and Diaz would have more than likely have gotten his chance as well once we started getting injuries or if he started to dominate the AHL.

But you said Diaz and Emelin would not have developed if Markov had been around and I think that's complete bull. Markov would have helped both a ton.
I'm not sure if these guys would've played much (if at all.) There's a benefit to having a vet for sure but there is a flipside here as well. No matter how you slice it those guys aren't going to play as much.

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01-25-2013, 11:15 PM
  #432
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I'm not sure if these guys would've played much (if at all.) There's a benefit to having a vet for sure but there is a flipside here as well. No matter how you slice it those guys aren't going to play as much.
true, Markov is so good, he would have taken both Diaz and Emelin spot...

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01-25-2013, 11:18 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not sure if these guys would've played much (if at all.) There's a benefit to having a vet for sure but there is a flipside here as well. No matter how you slice it those guys aren't going to play as much.
Yes they would have had less ice time but the ice time they would have had would have been against players that wouldn't have been able to dominate them as much. And getting dominated doesn't help you develop.

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01-26-2013, 12:31 AM
  #434
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Yes they would have had less ice time but the ice time they would have had would have been against players that wouldn't have been able to dominate them as much. And getting dominated doesn't help you develop.
I think they developed well enough. I think they're better players today because they got the ice time they did last year.

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01-26-2013, 03:20 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody would deny that he was the heart of the team for a long time. And I don't expect us to trade him. It goes against the grain to deal away players who are loved and of course the guy has value.

If he plays like his now for the rest of the year he'll be worth even more than a late 1st. Then again if he plays like he is now for the rest of the year and we get back Subban we might make the playoffs....

One other point worth noting here though. Emelin probably doesn't develop last year if Markov is in the lineup, ditto with Diaz. Subban only took on the role he did because there was nobody else. You could make a pretty strong argument that Markov's abscence (while not good for the standings) actually benefited some of the younger prospects looking to crack the lineup and make names for themselves. No way do they get the ice time they did if Markov was around.
How do you know Emelin and Diaz don't develop in the lineup last year with Markov in it? Whether or not Markov was in the lineup, they would've played; they would not play top pairing minutes like he does, and they would still have had a chance to crack the roster considering all the injuries and struggles on defense. They'd still play the same minutes they played last season. In fact, I would argue that with Markov on the roster, our defense would've been much better off last year. Just think how much better Diaz looks this season playing with Markov, compared to last season when he was mediocre for the most part.

Markov alone can improve our entire defense corps, and make every other defenseman better. In no way does Markov's absence benefit anything. His presence alone makes the younger players better. Just imagine what he would be able to do with Subban...

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01-26-2013, 03:49 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
How do you know Emelin and Diaz don't develop in the lineup last year with Markov in it? Whether or not Markov was in the lineup, they would've played; they would not play top pairing minutes like he does, and they would still have had a chance to crack the roster considering all the injuries and struggles on defense. They'd still play the same minutes they played last season. In fact, I would argue that with Markov on the roster, our defense would've been much better off last year. Just think how much better Diaz looks this season playing with Markov, compared to last season when he was mediocre for the most part.

Markov alone can improve our entire defense corps, and make every other defenseman better. In no way does Markov's absence benefit anything. His presence alone makes the younger players better. Just imagine what he would be able to do with Subban...
Yes and No.

The original plan was for Markov, Emelin, and Diaz to play. I think the original top-6 was:

Markov-Subban
Spacek-Gorges
Emelin-Diaz-Weber

Then, due to Markov's injury, Gauthier signed Chris Campoli to mitigate the damage (lol), and traded Spacek for Kaberle. So, in that sense, looking at that roster, they would have played.

However, there's no denying they would have played less if Markov rather than Campoli had been in the lineup. Campoli played 17 minutes a game over 43 games, if Markov had played 22 minutes a game over 82 games, that would have meant over 1000 fewer minutes to go around. There would have been less playing time with Diaz and Emelin, it's that simple.

You bring up "winning a spot in the lineup", I am against this view. I think promising players should be given a spot and an extended tryout, not be judged on one game. If we had given Emelin a 5 game tryout he would have been toast, as the general consensus was that he was having trouble in the first part of the season. That's the thing with new players, they need a lot of ice time and they need to be allowed to make mistakes. They need to be in a position where if they take a single bad penalty or make one mistake, they won't be sent down to the minors or benched. It takes a lot of time to become good sometimes.

As an example, Eller has been criticized for not producing like a top-6 player even though he never gets time on the power play and never

And that is why we may need some veteran removal by summer 2013.

- If we draft top-5 in the 2013 draft that's a spot we might need to open up -- it'd be stupid to send Jonathan Drouin back to Halifax.
- One of Tinordi or Beaulieu could be good enough for a bottom pairing spot next year.
- One of Gallagher, Leblanc, or Kristo could crack the Habs forward corps next season.
- We have six defensemen in the roster now with Subban not playing. Whoever becomes 7th should be let go eventually.
- Eller and Galchenyuk need to percolate upwards in the lineup. They should both be top-6 in 2013-2014.

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01-26-2013, 08:11 AM
  #437
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Reasons for last season's "tank";

Defense - full season of Markov,Georges,Diaz,Emelin,Bouillon,Subban(if he signs)
vs last season's patchwork lineup. No contest.

PP - Markov/Diaz vs Subban/Georges.
Don't know how long the magic will last but the PP is looking like a strength.
No contest.

ES scoring - Desharnais line is struggling.
Plekanec line should do better with a healthy Gionta and rejuvenated
Bourque, 3rd/4th line have more energy/grit.
Still a problem, wait and see.

3 game report - middle of the pack, no "tank"

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01-26-2013, 10:10 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Yes and No.

The original plan was for Markov, Emelin, and Diaz to play. I think the original top-6 was:

Markov-Subban
Spacek-Gorges
Emelin-Diaz-Weber

Then, due to Markov's injury, Gauthier signed Chris Campoli to mitigate the damage (lol), and traded Spacek for Kaberle. So, in that sense, looking at that roster, they would have played.

However, there's no denying they would have played less if Markov rather than Campoli had been in the lineup. Campoli played 17 minutes a game over 43 games, if Markov had played 22 minutes a game over 82 games, that would have meant over 1000 fewer minutes to go around. There would have been less playing time with Diaz and Emelin, it's that simple.

You bring up "winning a spot in the lineup", I am against this view. I think promising players should be given a spot and an extended tryout, not be judged on one game. If we had given Emelin a 5 game tryout he would have been toast, as the general consensus was that he was having trouble in the first part of the season. That's the thing with new players, they need a lot of ice time and they need to be allowed to make mistakes. They need to be in a position where if they take a single bad penalty or make one mistake, they won't be sent down to the minors or benched. It takes a lot of time to become good sometimes.

As an example, Eller has been criticized for not producing like a top-6 player even though he never gets time on the power play and never

And that is why we may need some veteran removal by summer 2013.

- If we draft top-5 in the 2013 draft that's a spot we might need to open up -- it'd be stupid to send Jonathan Drouin back to Halifax.
- One of Tinordi or Beaulieu could be good enough for a bottom pairing spot next year.
- One of Gallagher, Leblanc, or Kristo could crack the Habs forward corps next season.
- We have six defensemen in the roster now with Subban not playing. Whoever becomes 7th should be let go eventually.
- Eller and Galchenyuk need to percolate upwards in the lineup. They should both be top-6 in 2013-2014.
I don't know why you put that in quotes because I never said that. My exact quote was "they would still have had a chance to crack the roster considering all the injuries and struggles on defense." and that is 100% true. I think it is quite obvious that Habs management realizes that younger player need time to develop, and wouldn't just let them play a couple games, especially when dealing with injury.

I don't agree with how you say Markov being in the lineup would mean less time for Emelin and Diaz, as they still played bottom-pairing minutes either way. We dealt with many injuries to defense, as many teams do, and they were given a chance to play. Markov playing with them would have done nothing but good for them, as you can plainly see with Diaz and Markov right now on the powerplay, and Markov with Emelin in 5v5 and penalty kill. Not sure how you could argue how it could be anything but positive for them, really.

I never said I don't agree with some veteran removal if it is needed, but at this point in time it is not necessary, and if Markov maintains anywhere near his current pace, there is no reason to trade him whatsoever. He has shown he is able to absolutely carry his team.

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01-26-2013, 10:16 AM
  #439
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I'm not sure if these guys would've played much (if at all.) There's a benefit to having a vet for sure but there is a flipside here as well. No matter how you slice it those guys aren't going to play as much.
They would have been brought on more slowly but they would have gotten their chances.

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01-26-2013, 11:38 AM
  #440
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How do you know Emelin and Diaz don't develop in the lineup last year with Markov in it?
I don't think they would've gotten the same kind of icetime. If Markov is eating up the icetime that he does, then I don't see it happening its a simple matter of arithmetic. Also please don't bother talking about how Markov would've made our team better last season because we all know this.

And actually it proves my point. With Markov we probably don't finish 15th and we don't get Galchenyuk. Do you think that we're better off going forward with Galchenyuk or with whatever we would've gotten with the 15th overall pick? We took a step back last year and landed in last spot. But in the long term we'll be better for it. Coming in 15th is not the end of the world when you're picking up elite prospects along the way.
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They would have been brought on more slowly but they would have gotten their chances.
No way they get the same kind of ice time.

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01-26-2013, 12:13 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't think they would've gotten the same kind of icetime. If Markov is eating up the icetime that he does, then I don't see it happening its a simple matter of arithmetic.
Why would they not have gotten the same kind of ice time? They weren't top pairing defensemen and there were many injuries on defense, so what difference does Markov make other than making them better players? He would play on the top pairing, they would play on the others. Each pairing was getting the same ice time regardless.

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01-26-2013, 03:51 PM
  #442
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Why would they not have gotten the same kind of ice time? They weren't top pairing defensemen and there were many injuries on defense, so what difference does Markov make other than making them better players? He would play on the top pairing, they would play on the others. Each pairing was getting the same ice time regardless.
PK on one pairing, Markov on the other... do the math. There's going to be less icetime to go around. Not sure why this is a question.

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01-26-2013, 04:42 PM
  #443
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You bring up "winning a spot in the lineup", I am against this view. I think promising players should be given a spot and an extended tryout, not be judged on one game. If we had given Emelin a 5 game tryout he would have been toast, as the general consensus was that he was having trouble in the first part of the season. That's the thing with new players, they need a lot of ice time and they need to be allowed to make mistakes. They need to be in a position where if they take a single bad penalty or make one mistake, they won't be sent down to the minors or benched. It takes a lot of time to become good sometimes.
So does this mean you are in favour of playing Galchenyuk 20min a night on the 1st line for an "extended tryout"? There is a difference between earning your spot and being benched after every mistake. Last year Emelin was tentative, he was playing extremely conservative to start the season either maybe it was because he didn't want to make a mistake, maybe he was adjusting to the ice size/speed of the game, or maybe because Campoli got injured right away he was thrust into a role he wasn't ready for yet.

Desharnais started the season as 3rd line center and PP specialist. He was given an opportunity due to inhuries and ran with it. He made it impossible for the coach to return him to that 3rd line spot, he earned it and wasn't just given the spot. Same thing with Plekanec, he was 3rd line center and had shown he was ready for the top 6 so Ribeiro was traded to make room (Let's not get into the return for Ribeiro). The same thing should happen with Galchenyuk, once he shows he is ready to center one of the top lines and either Desharnais or Plekanec will be moved. Internal competition is a good thing, if every thing is handed to you then it creates the dreaded country club atmosphere.

One last thing, a player can lose his confidence if he gets benched after every mistake, he can also lose confidence if he plays a lot of minutes and doesn't play well because he is outmatched. Both situations should be avoided if possible.

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01-26-2013, 04:50 PM
  #444
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I think they developed well enough. I think they're better players today because they got the ice time they did last year.
It's often said that sports is upwards of 80% mental. It's all about confidence, you don't get confidence by playing a lot and being outmatched, you gain confidence by going out there and winning your battles one shift at a time. If you can't see how outmatched Diaz and Emelin were on many nights and how that hurts them then I don't think there's anything I can say. We will have to agree to disagree.

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01-26-2013, 05:35 PM
  #445
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PK on one pairing, Markov on the other... do the math. There's going to be less icetime to go around. Not sure why this is a question.
The math still says they get ice time considering there were so many injuries we had to deal with on defense. And who says they wouldn't be playing on a pairing with either of PK or Markov.... kind of like EXACTLY what is happening right now? You have no way of knowing what kind of ice time they would have had.

Once again, having Markov in the lineup last year is nothing but good for both the young defensemen and the team as a whole.

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01-26-2013, 05:58 PM
  #446
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If Markov wasn't injured, we wouldn't have traded for Kaberle, therefore Emelin and Diaz would likely have the same amount of ice time last year if Markov was healthy.

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01-26-2013, 07:18 PM
  #447
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If Markov wasn't injured, we wouldn't have traded for Kaberle, therefore Emelin and Diaz would likely have the same amount of ice time last year if Markov was healthy.
Wrong, Spacek was eating minutes comparable to what Kaberle ate, that's a null point.

Basically, if Markov had played 82 games for 22-24 minutes a night, we would not have played Chris Campoli for 43 games for 17 minutes a night. There would have been less ice time available for Emelin and Diaz, it's that simple.

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01-26-2013, 07:40 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Wrong, Spacek was eating minutes comparable to what Kaberle ate, that's a null point.

Basically, if Markov had played 82 games for 22-24 minutes a night, we would not have played Chris Campoli for 43 games for 17 minutes a night. There would have been less ice time available for Emelin and Diaz, it's that simple.
so ?

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01-26-2013, 07:46 PM
  #449
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So does this mean you are in favour of playing Galchenyuk 20min a night on the 1st line for an "extended tryout"?
Galchenyuk has been given a spot. 13 minutes a night with decent linemates. I don't think they'll bench him if he makes one error.

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Desharnais started the season as 3rd line center and PP specialist. He was given an opportunity due to inhuries and ran with it. He made it impossible for the coach to return him to that 3rd line spot, he earned it and wasn't just given the spot.
A good example. Desharnais was given the opportunity to replace Gomez because Gomez was injured. What if Gomez had not been injured? Injuries come and go, sometimes you have a lot, sometimes you have less. Relying on injuries to develop young players like Desharnais is not an optimal way to develop a team, as it introduces a lot of risk.

Look at Eller for example. He'll be given his opportunity if Plekanec suffers a major injury. If not? He'll be a bust. That's not an optimal development strategy.

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Internal competition is a good thing, if every thing is handed to you then it creates the dreaded country club atmosphere.
Nothing is being handed. They still earn a spot so to speak by excelling at their previous position, for example Galchenyuk dominating the OHL.

However, we should not expect Eller to get 50 points from the 3rd line.

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01-26-2013, 07:48 PM
  #450
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Wrong, Spacek was eating minutes comparable to what Kaberle ate, that's a null point.

Basically, if Markov had played 82 games for 22-24 minutes a night, we would not have played Chris Campoli for 43 games for 17 minutes a night. There would have been less ice time available for Emelin and Diaz, it's that simple.
It's not that simple. Playing 12-15min a night alongside Markov would've been better for their development then 18min a night next to Kaberle and getting scored on constantly.

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