I would part with Sean if it meant getting a franchise defenseman (ala Weber, Doughty, OEL, Pietrangelo). I like PK, want him on this team, would be fine with the term and money it would take.... but I don't rate PK as a franchise defenseman.
Sean is gonna be a rock for this team. 25/35 type of output and WILL be up for the Selke numerous times baring injury.
And as Bergevin stands at the podium announcing that he has matched that 7m offersheet, I hope he ironically stammers that he will not be bullied by other organizations trying to take advantage of the situation.
If Holmgren throws a 7 years x 7 millions offer sheet at PK, the habs will gladly let him go and reap the benefits: a first round picks from the flyers for the next four years!
Last edited by Keep Your Head Up: 01-26-2013 at 04:19 PM.
we don't need ANYBODY bad enough to trade couturier. I don't think holmgren is as impatient as people think he is tho. couts aint goin nowhere. subban aint that big of a stud or montreal wouldn't let him go anyway.
we don't need ANYBODY bad enough to trade couturier. I don't think holmgren is as impatient as people think he is tho. couts aint goin nowhere. subban aint that big of a stud or montreal wouldn't let him go anyway.
Subban is really good. Not sure what Montreal is doing here.
Flyers should offer 5 year - 5.75 per, give up a 1st, 2nd, 3rd pick?
Now this, on the other hand, would be a great move for you guys; don't have to guive any player to get PK(and a reasonnable price as far as picks go), and if they match well you just pissed into habs management's corn flakes by making them pay more than they are willing to.
Holmgren is a bit panicky/impatient and sees draft picks as trade bait more then anything, but he doesn't let special players go unless people have lost patience with them. Ala Carter and Richards.
I think 50 was always a pretty realistic projection for his offensive output, honestly.
You clearly didn't see the lockout thread about Schenn and Cooter's upsides, haha.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Express
Couturier for Subban? **** that noise.
...
Sean is gonna be a rock for this team. 25/35 type of output and WILL be up for the Selke numerous times baring injury.
So, wait, a young 40-50 pt dman who plays 30 mins a night of strong defense is less valuable than a 60 pt forward who plays 20 mins a night of strong defense? At the VERY least they are equivalent, imo. And that is before you even consider that one has actually started to sniff his potential while the other hasn't (of course, Cooter is younger and not expected to be at that level yet - but it is completely nonsensical to not at least allow for the POSSIBILITY that he doesn't completely fulfill the expectations people place at his feet since he is still pretty far out from them - I mean, didn't most of you JUST GET DONE having your dreams and hopes dashed by JVR?).
Imo, Cooter for Subban is a no-brainer for the Flyers. A trade of relatively equal value young players from a position of strength to a position of need. The only hesitation is in cap hit difference (league min vs. 4M+), but that is more than made up for by their development difference (a legit top pairing on the verge of #1 vs. a 3rd/4th line forward with 1st/2nd line POTENTIAL)
Of course, I also thought Cooter+Schenn+ for Weber was a no brainer, too... and I remember most here thought that would be a mistake as well.
You clearly didn't see the lockout thread about Schenn and Cooter's upsides, haha.
So, wait, a young 40-50 pt dman who plays 30 mins a night of strong defense is less valuable than a 60 pt forward who plays 20 mins a night of strong defense? At the VERY least they are equivalent, imo. And that is before you even consider that one has actually started to sniff his potential while the other hasn't (of course, Cooter is younger and not expected to be at that level yet - but it is completely nonsensical to not at least allow for the POSSIBILITY that he doesn't completely fulfill the expectations people place at his feet since he is still pretty far out from them - I mean, didn't most of you JUST GET DONE having your dreams and hopes dashed by JVR?).
Imo, Cooter for Subban is a no-brainer for the Flyers. A trade of relatively equal value young players from a position of strength to a position of need. The only hesitation is in cap hit difference (league min vs. 4M+), but that is more than made up for by their development difference (a legit top pairing on the verge of #1 vs. a 3rd/4th line forward with 1st/2nd line POTENTIAL)
Of course, I also thought Cooter+Schenn+ for Weber was a no brainer, too... and I remember most here thought that would be a mistake as well.
I take it you REALLY want Subban on your team.
Would you not prefer the offer sheet route(vs trading coots)? And if not, why?
I take it you REALLY want Subban on your team.
Would you not prefer the offer sheet route(vs trading coots)? And if not, why?
It's not really an infatuation with Subban, I don't actually see him ever being a real TOP TIER dman (a strong #1, but not a franchise cornerstone or Noris contender). I just also don't get the immeasurable hype for Cooter (I mean, I love him, too... but he isn't RNH or anything, imo - Richards was a 60 pt Selke candidate and I would've traded him straight up for a #1 dman, too).
In my mind, they are relatively equivalent trade value with relatively equivalent ceilings and one fills an OBVIOUS need on the Flyers for the present and future while the other is a roster luxury due to strong young center depth being our main team strength.
I also don't see an OS ever not getting matched by Montreal (so it is a waste of time to even discuss - that Weber OS has unleashed an absurd can of worms on this board... everyone wants to OS every RFA now without any semblance of understanding of the situational context)... this negotiation is more about principal than dollars for the Habs and it is okay for them to "overpay" their RFA from a principal standpoint if someone else OS'd them and forced their hand.
Of course you allow the chance that a player doesn't become what one may think he will become (same for Subban, who's to say he never breaks 40 or even cracks 50?), but I view Couturier as a sure thing in *my* mind (as some of you view Subban as a sure thing for 50 in *your* minds).
I'll entertain the idea and can get on board with the idea that guys like Schenn, Voracek, etc won't live up to their billing, but I can't entertain the idea Couturier won't become what I suggest (baring injury). Half of it is beng a delusional homer who hopes everything is coming up Milhouse, but the other is I covet and believe in the 20 year old who put up almost 30 points on bottom 6 minutes, shut down the Art Ross and Hart Trophy winner in the playoffs, and at 19 was out there for some of the most crucial shifts of our season.
I just don't view PK as a legit #1 in this league, sorry (he'll be a top pair guy with the floor being what he is now top 4). Sean has top line potential, but I expect him to be a top 6 forward who will be the best defensive forward in the league at some point. I would not trade or package him for anything less than an impact franchise D-man/winger and PK Subban is not that player.
If you watch the games, you know damn well that Couts has the goods. I know Subban has the goods as well, but I truly believe Sean will one of the best in the world at what he does during his prime and will become the premiere defensive forward in the game.
It's not really an infatuation with Subban, I don't actually see him ever being a real TOP TIER dman (a strong #1, but not a franchise cornerstone or Noris contender). I just also don't get the immeasurable hype for Cooter (I mean, I love him, too... but he isn't RNH or anything, imo - Richards was a 60 pt Selke candidate and I would've traded him straight up for a #1 dman, too).
In my mind, they are relatively equivalent trade value with relatively equivalent ceilings and one fills an OBVIOUS need on the Flyers for the present and future while the other is a roster luxury due to strong young center depth being our main team strength.
I also don't see an OS ever not getting matched by Montreal (so it is a waste of time to even discuss - that Weber OS has unleashed an absurd can of worms on this board... everyone wants to OS every RFA now without any semblance of understanding of the situational context)... this negotiation is more about principal than dollars for the Habs and it is okay for them to "overpay" their RFA from a principal standpoint if someone else OS'd them and forced their hand.
Fair assesment. My evaluation of both players is pretty much the same as yours. The Flyers have a bigger need for D than they have for a center, and Subban would be an EXTREMELY good acquisition for them IMO.
Last edited by Keep Your Head Up: 01-26-2013 at 05:35 PM.
Of course you allow the chance that a player doesn't become what one may think he will become (same for Subban, who's to say he never breaks 40 or even cracks 50?), but I view Couturier as a sure thing in *my* mind (as some of you view Subban as a sure thing for 50 in *your* minds).
I'll entertain the idea and can get on board with the idea that guys like Schenn, Voracek, etc won't live up to their billing, but I can't entertain the idea Couturier won't become what I suggest (baring injury). Half of it is beng a delusional homer who hopes everything is coming up Milhouse, but the other is I covet and believe in the 20 year old who put up almost 30 points on bottom 6 minutes, shut down the Art Ross and Hart Trophy winner in the playoffs, and at 19 was out there for some of the most crucial shifts of our season.
I just don't view PK as a legit #1 in this league, sorry (he'll be a top pair guy with the floor being what he is now top 4). Sean has top line potential, but I expect him to be a top 6 forward who will be the best defensive forward in the league at some point. I would not trade or package him for anything less than an impact franchise D-man/winger and PK Subban is not that player.
If you watch the games, you know damn well that Couts has the goods. I know Subban has the goods as well, but I truly believe Sean will one of the best in the world at what he does during his prime and will become the premiere defensive forward in the game.
Maybe this is what he'll develop into after all. Not quite sure yet he'll become a true number one, but I could be wrong.
But I'm pretty sure that a few years from now, he'll be the type of player who could fill the number 2 spot on pretty much any team's depth chart.
Saying subban won't be a number 1 is such a general comment without any meaning behind it. Defining a number 1 dman is also a joke.
Ill say this Pk right now is better than duncan keith, dan boyle, and yandle and would be our kris letang except a bigger version and a more physical prescence.
Maybe this is what he'll develop into after all. Not quite sure yet he'll become a true number one, but I could be wrong.
But I'm pretty sure that a few years from now, he'll be the type of player who could fill the number 2 spot on pretty much any team's depth chart.
Sound like Kimmo Timonen. Not quite a #1 stud guy, but a solid top pairing defenseman.
I think PK is exactly what this team needs. Is he a true #1? Maybe not, but he can move the puck, step up and make a hit, and provide some much needed offense from the backend (especially if Timonen leaves).
Saying subban won't be a number 1 is such a general comment without any meaning behind it. Defining a number 1 dman is also a joke.
Ill say this Pk right now is better than duncan keith, dan boyle, and yandle and would be our kris letang except a bigger version and a more physical prescence.
Seriously? This is the Subban hype that is kinda crazy. Unless you consider PK a Top 10 defender in the league, which I will 100% disagree with you.
yeah , im very serious. PK is a serious talent in this league. He has the whole package imo. He is unbelievable out there.
Eh, I watched Subban games also. I guess I don't see it as you do. Keith is considered a franchise defender, and I dont think many would agree with you on PK being better than him. To each their own though.
I think PK is exactly what this team needs. Is he a true #1? Maybe not, but he can move the puck, step up and make a hit, and provide some much needed offense from the backend (especially if Timonen leaves).
Eh, I watched Subban games also. I guess I don't see it as you do. Keith is considered a franchise defender, and I dont think many would agree with you on PK being better than him. To each their own though.
The only thing ill give keith an edge on his obviously his amazing skating ability and his puckhandling at high speeds. Also his fitness. He can play more than just about any d man in the league.
Everything else goes to subban. Better shot, much stronger, more physical with forwards. Has better scoring ability, and more creative of a player in the ozone.
The only thing ill give keith an edge on his obviously his amazing skating ability and his puckhandling at high speeds. Also his fitness. He can play more than just about any d man in the league.
Everything else goes to subban. Better shot, much stronger, more physical with forwards. Has better scoring ability, and more creative of a player in the ozone.
Eh, I watched Subban games also. I guess I don't see it as you do. Keith is considered a franchise defender, and I dont think many would agree with you on PK being better than him. To each their own though.
I agree, he's very good, but not better than Keith, Boyle and Yandle.
That being said, I'm obviously not willing to give up a player like Couturier to get him.
yeah , im very serious. PK is a serious talent in this league. He has the whole package imo. He is unbelievable out there.
Bit overrating him there, mate. While I believe he has the tools to eclipse Boyle, Keith and Yandle sooner rather than latter. It is something of a stretch to say he has already, in particular, Keith.
If a deal does happen though. I suspect Brayden and Luke are who go the other way, if not less. Montreal's trade resume does not convince me they could negotiate Couturier out of Philly.
Last edited by Bourne Endeavor: 01-26-2013 at 06:46 PM.
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