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P.K. Subban Thread - MK VIII - 'Week-end of Angst' Edition

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01-26-2013, 05:36 PM
  #876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habit11 View Post
Not seeing a PK quote relating to length. All I've read is Stubbs saying this Stubbs' words, not PK.

That doesn't mean PK agreed to a 2 year deal.
Stubbs is a well respected journalist who doesn't make stuff up. He spent an hour talking to PK, there was no doubt some of it was off the record especially if it concerned dollars or years. You can choose to not believe him but it's far more reliable than anything else we know about the situation.

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01-26-2013, 05:37 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Nope, Kane/Toews were at a way lower salary than they are now... they also had Buff and Keith on the cheap (well, relatively cheap)
Is that really the only part of the post you're going to focus on?
Really who cares about that?

Cap was lower.
Gionta has one more year. Kaberle shouldn't even be here now.
And you don't pick Cole-Gionta-Kaberle over PK. They're all over the hill veterans, maybe just one contract away from retiring, and they should all see their salaries reduced.
Meanwhile, you have PK who's one of the best up and coming young Dman in the NHL.

I don't think choosing which group to invest in for the future is really difficult here.

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01-26-2013, 05:39 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
That would be his right.
Smart management..

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01-26-2013, 05:40 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Is that really the only part of the post you're going to focus on?
Really who cares about that?

Cap was lower.
Gionta has one more year. Kaberle shouldn't even be here now.
And you don't pick Cole-Gionta-Kaberle over PK. They're all over the hill veterans, maybe just one contract away from retiring, and they should all see their salaries reduced.
Meanwhile, you have PK who's one of the best up and coming young Dman in the NHL.

I don't think choosing which group to invest in for the future is really difficult here.
the difference between 5 Mil when Pens won the Cup versus next year (this year isnt a full season so...) is less than 2% on cap space.


Sorry, but if you pay P.K. 5 Mil, you are investing in the present, not the future.

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01-26-2013, 05:41 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
if my memory serves me right, Malkin wasnt at the salary he is no in 08/09, think he was at 3.5 or something...



besides, look at the players, on one side you have Crosby - Malkin, on the other you have Datsuyk alongside one of the best D in history...
Yeah what's your point? The cap was also lower during those years.

56.7M when Pittsburgh won.
50.3M when Detroit won.

$5M today doesn't have the same value as $5M a few years ago.

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01-26-2013, 05:41 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Is that really the only part of the post you're going to focus on?
Really who cares about that?

Cap was lower.
Gionta has one more year. Kaberle shouldn't even be here now.
And you don't pick Cole-Gionta-Kaberle over PK
. They're all over the hill veterans, maybe just one contract away from retiring, and they should all see their salaries reduced.
Meanwhile, you have PK who's one of the best up and coming young Dman in the NHL.

I don't think choosing which group to invest in for the future is really difficult here.
So what you're saying is that after Subban bridge contract, Habs management will have plenty of dollars to give to their best players. I see.

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01-26-2013, 05:41 PM
  #882
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HOLY CRAP

"Week-end of Angst" thread title was ****ing right on the money

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01-26-2013, 05:42 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
simple, let's say he was looking for 4.5 per over 6 years, total 27 mil... compared to lets say, the 5 mil over 2 years now and then another 4 years at 5.5 per (wanting to make up for what he lost on his bridge contract. You end up paying him 27 Mil over the next 6 years anyway... in both cases it's the same total amount, there is no bargain whatsoever.


IT IS a way to contend, and pretty much the only way nowadays...


So, what you're saying it's worth gambling since, as you said, worst thing to happen is you're back to where we are now.
Ignoring the math (I assume there's a typo somewhere because it doesn't add up) the gamble is on Subban becoming an elite defenseman within the next two years.

So while the team is already spending more on him in your bridge contract scenario (and with a higher cap hit over the entire term), it also seriously undervalues what his second contract could be worth.

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01-26-2013, 05:43 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
Yeah what's your point? The cap was also lower during those years.

56.7M when Pittsburgh won. > two of the top 3 C in the entire league
50.3M when Detroit won. > (one of the) best D in the history of the league

$5M today doesn't have the same value as $5M a few years ago.
about 1 or 2 % difference on the cap.

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01-26-2013, 05:45 PM
  #885
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Trade to Edmonton for one of their young stars, pls.

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01-26-2013, 05:46 PM
  #886
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I'm wondering something; taking into consideration everything we know about Subban's game and what he brings to our team, what would be a fair amount of money for him to earn THIS year (objectively) as a player without taking contractual (RFA) considerations into mind?

Is he important enough to warrant a 5+million dollar contract right now? Is his worth more along the line of 4 millions? What would be the consensus amongst the posters of hfboards?

Personally, I see him at about 4.5-5 millions, but maybe that's just me.

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01-26-2013, 05:47 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the difference between 5 Mil when Pens won the Cup versus next year (this year isnt a full season so...) is less than 2% on cap space.


Sorry, but if you pay P.K. 5 Mil, you are investing in the present, not the future.
Sure, and the future, unless you're sticking to 1 year deals. If it's for another year, than it's 1year in the future. If it's 2, then it's 2years. Not sure why you even said that..

Gionta, Kaberle and Markov are coming off the cap after next year. That's 15M off. Not one of those guys should get a raise, as it stands now. Gionta and Kaberle will see a drop no matter what. Markov might get a similar amount but only if he remains healthy and keeps performing as he has.
Actually, Kaberle will likely be bought out next year.
You have more than enough room to fit PK at 5M under there.

I mean really, are you really suggesting you rather invest in Kaberle-Gionta-Cole than in PK?? If no, then what are you discussing exactly?

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01-26-2013, 05:47 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Ignoring the math (I assume there's a typo somewhere because it doesn't add up) the gamble is on Subban becoming an elite defenseman within the next two years.

So while the team is already spending more on him in your bridge contract scenario (and with a higher cap hit over the entire term), it also seriously undervalues what his second contract could be worth.
6 X 4.5 = 27

5 (over two years, bridge contract / 2.2 + 2.9 as posted previously) + [4 X 5.5] = 27

it does add up, thank you very much. Besides, it was just an example, even if there a Million or two difference, over 6 years it isnt all that much.

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01-26-2013, 05:48 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Stubbs is a well respected journalist who doesn't make stuff up. He spent an hour talking to PK, there was no doubt some of it was off the record especially if it concerned dollars or years. You can choose to not believe him but it's far more reliable than anything else we know about the situation.
I'm not doubting what was on the record and in print because
Quote:
The on-the-record portion of our conversation was about philosophies, not hard numbers of term and dollars;
So, my question is where is stated that PK has agreed to a 2 year deal but they can't agree on $$$? Some here have suggested that's the case.

My initial point was that they should be able to settle for around $4m cap hit for 2 - 3 years. I don't think however there is an agreement on term or dollar. So, both sides need to compromise, not just one.

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01-26-2013, 05:51 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
So what you're saying is that after Subban bridge contract, Habs management will have plenty of dollars to give to their best players. I see.
Ya, they will, and then people will complain that players are overpaid. We will have plenty of cash to give to over the hill veterans on the open market. Meanwhile, we'll tell Galchenyuk, who'll then be our #1 center that he has to take a 2M bridge contract.
Round and round we go.

Identify a core of players, and invest in them as early as you can, not when they'll be breaking the bank.

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01-26-2013, 05:51 PM
  #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habit11 View Post
I'm not doubting what was on the record and in print because So, my question is where is stated that PK has agreed to a 2 year deal but they can't agree on $$$? Some here have suggested that's the case.

My initial point was that they should be able to settle for around $4m cap hit for 2 - 3 years. I don't think however there is an agreement on term or dollar. So, both sides need to compromise, not just one.
Subban told Stubbs in an interview that he was willing to accept a 2 year deal if the compensation was fair.

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01-26-2013, 05:52 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Sure, and the future, unless you're sticking to 1 year deals. If it's for another year, than it's 1year in the future. If it's 2, then it's 2years. Not sure why you even said that..

Gionta, Kaberle and Markov are coming off the cap after next year. That's 15M off. Not one of those guys should get a raise, as it stands now. Gionta and Kaberle will see a drop no matter what. Markov might get a similar amount but only if he remains healthy and keeps performing as he has.
Actually, Kaberle will likely be bought out next year.
You have more than enough room to fit PK at 5M under there.

I mean really, are you really suggesting you rather invest in Kaberle-Gionta-Cole than in PK?? If no, then what are you discussing exactly?
wtf you're talking about ?


simple, there will be plenty of cap room in three years (after his bridge contract) with all the guys coming off the books... enough for the Habs to pay their top players at a more than fair price. Assuming Subban remains a very good D, he should worry too much IMO.


Besides, his 2 years bridge contract will actually be a year and a half since there's alreay onlyn 45 games to play this season.

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01-26-2013, 05:53 PM
  #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the difference between 5 Mil when Pens won the Cup versus next year (this year isnt a full season so...) is less than 2% on cap space.


Sorry, but if you pay P.K. 5 Mil, you are investing in the present, not the future.
uhn?
Good cherry picking. What about Detroit... cap was at 56.

You can switch two minimum ECLs for two 5 mil contract with that difference.

Point is, you're question wasn't even good to start with as the salary will be forever increasing, and you're using the only year it will actually go down (the CBA states it will never go down lower than 64,3 and will keep going up with the same requirements as before, so it's almost a sure bet). Which is ingenious of you. It's also irrelevant because every big market team has at least 4 players making close to 5 mil, if not more, and many of them have players making almost 150 to 200% of the 5 mil as a cap hit.

The actual way to see it is this; For next year exclusively, the average salary on a full cap will be close to 2,80 mil. You can have 23 players making 2,8 mil (2,795,652$ actually) and you will be flush with the upper limit. Having 4-5 players making around 5 mil isn't dramatic at all, especially if you have a few non-bonus ELCs.

And you can't compare teams from the past when the cap was 5-10 and 20% lower... not 2%. Also considering that the cap might increase slowly in the next 2-3 years, but afterwards, you might expect the same 5 to 10% increase yearly, which will have the average full cap salary getting closer to 5 mil anyway.

This is a much better way to show that there's always ample space especially if yuo have many long term contracts (Plex, Price, Pac) who will cost less in % vs the cap in a few years.

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01-26-2013, 05:54 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Ya, they will, and then people will complain that players are overpaid. We will have plenty of cash to give to over the hill veterans on the open market. Meanwhile, we'll tell Galchenyuk, who'll then be our #1 center that he has to take a 2M bridge contract.
Round and round we go.

Identify a core of players, and invest in them as early as you can, not when they'll be breaking the bank.
huh ? you plan on whining about Subban being overpaid or something ?

(cause I was refering to him when talking about best players, Price and Max already signed)

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01-26-2013, 05:55 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
6 X 4.5 = 27

5 (over two years, bridge contract / 2.2 + 2.9 as posted previously) + [4 X 5.5] = 27

it does add up, thank you very much. Besides, it was just an example, even if there a Million or two difference, over 6 years it isnt all that much.
Sure it adds up, if you think PK will only be worth 1M more. But even in your example, you get a higher cap hit of 1M for 4years. If PK feels he's worth 7M, then it doesn't add up at all. 5M difference, and 2.5M difference in cap.

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01-26-2013, 05:57 PM
  #896
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What I find dumb about this whole stupid stand off is the fact that it's been mentioned that Bergevin is looking for a 2 year bridge contract (reportedly), which would cover this season and next season. PK is dumb to argue since it's arguably a 1.5 year contract since its a shortened season. Take the freaking money, play your ass off for the rest of this season and then you have next season to negotiate all over again at which point you can then you can sign for your big contract.

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01-26-2013, 05:57 PM
  #897
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uhn?
Good cherry picking. What about Detroit... cap was at 56.

You can switch two minimum ECLs for two 5 mil contract with that difference.

Point is, you're question wasn't even good to start with as the salary will be forever increasing, and you're using the only year it will actually go down (the CBA states it will never go down lower than 64,3 and will keep going up with the same requirements as before, so it's almost a sure bet). Which is ingenious of you. It's also irrelevant because every big market team has at least 4 players making close to 5 mil, if not more, and many of them have players making almost 150 to 200% of the 5 mil as a cap hit.
Cap was actually at $50.3M in 2007-08

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01-26-2013, 05:58 PM
  #898
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
uhn?
Good cherry picking. What about Detroit... cap was at 56.

You can switch two minimum ECLs for two 5 mil contract with that difference.

Point is, you're question wasn't even good to start with as the salary will be forever increasing, and you're using the only year it will actually go down (the CBA states it will never go down lower than 64,3 and will keep going up with the same requirements as before, so it's almost a sure bet). Which is ingenious of you. It's also irrelevant because every big market team has at least 4 players making close to 5 mil, if not more, and many of them have players making almost 150 to 200% of the 5 mil as a cap hit.

The actual way to see it is this; For next year exclusively, the average salary on a full cap will be close to 2,80 mil. You can have 23 players making 2,8 mil (2,795,652$ actually) and you will be flush with the upper limit. Having 4-5 players making around 5 mil isn't dramatic at all, especially if you have a few non-bonus ELCs.

And you can't compare teams from the past when the cap was 5-10 and 20% lower... not 2%. Also considering that the cap might increase slowly in the next 2-3 years, but afterwards, you might expect the same 5 to 10% increase yearly, which will have the average full cap salary getting closer to 5 mil anyway.
the 2% is the difference between 5 Mil on a 56 Mil cap and 5 Mil on a 64 Mil cap... 5/56 vs 5/64.


doesnt change a thing, as long as it's cheap relative to the cap.

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01-26-2013, 05:58 PM
  #899
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If this ends up in a trade, how confident are we that the guy who thinks Subban is worth 2.5M/per will be able to get equal value ?

Furthermore, how confident can we be in general going forward..
In another thread, I listed the reasons I think Bergevin is an idiot and was shot down by several people;

However, this 2 years, 5.1 million total offer is confirmation of my view of Bergevin.

Going forward, we can expect 8th place finishes over the next 4 or 5 years at best, during which we won't trade Markov, Plekanec, Cole, Gionta, etc while they'll still have value, and we'll lose a lot of prime years out of Pacioretty, Eller, Gorges, etc.

We are stuck with a bad GM, possibly a worst one than Rejean Houle. It's going to be ugly moving forward.

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01-26-2013, 06:00 PM
  #900
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Subban told Stubbs in an interview that he was willing to accept a 2 year deal if the compensation was fair.
Provide a quote where he specifically says he'd agree to 2 years.

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