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P.K. Subban Thread - MK VIII - 'Week-end of Angst' Edition

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01-26-2013, 06:33 PM
  #926
Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
You think this story has a happy ending?
i'm old and wise enough to know that anything is possible and that thinking that I can predict the outcome with a limited set of facts is just a delusion of grandeur.

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01-26-2013, 06:33 PM
  #927
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Not sure if anyone linked the Andy Strickland article about the Subban negotiation but here is a rather telling quote.

One NHL Executive recently told me, “You can’t pay Subban more because Markov got hurt.”

Full article here http://t.co/41MSKkNq
Not gonna lie, this is one of the worst articles I've ever read.

First, the quote makes no sense and is given out of context.

Second, this part irked me :

Quote:
How many D-men coming out of entry level fetch long-term deals? Drew Doughty and Erik Karlsson are two that immediately come to mind.
How about the other names he forgot to mention ? Myers, Carlson, Staal, Hedman, Vlasic, etc. No, it's much better to just mention the 2 that can't be compared to Subban to prove a point that has no basis in reality.

Then he says this :

Quote:
The options are there for Montreal which includes picking up talks on July 1st or even taking a deal to the 2013 NHL entry draft. What’s wrong with getting to know the player before you walk into a five-year deal?
He didn't have the same qualms giving long term deals to Price and Pacioretty and didn't know them any more than he knows Subban ?

Just a terrible terrible article by someone who has very little clue... or logic.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:33 PM
  #928
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
meh, it's for a year and a half, dont think signing for below what he think he's worth is such a big deal.
Certainly your most compelling argument to date.
If it ain't such a big deal, then management should feel the same. It's just a year and a half, if he's bad, wtv, he's coming off the books in just a year. Wtv.

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01-26-2013, 06:36 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by E = CH˛ View Post
Not gonna lie, this is one of the worst articles I've ever read.

First, the quote makes no sense and is given out of context.

Second, this part irked me :



How about the other names he forgot to mention ? Myers, Carlson, Staal, Hedman, Vlasic, etc.

Then he says this :



He didn't have the same qualms giving long term deals to Price and Pacioretty and didn't know them any more than he knows Subban ?

Just a terrible terrible article by someone who has very little clue... or logic.
I'd also had that it is very short sighted to believe PK is asking money because Markov got hurt. He's asking for some cash because he stepped up effectively.
Markov getting injured only opened the door. It's been like that for years. A player gets injured, some of the guys that were behind him steps up.

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01-26-2013, 06:37 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Carter cost the Kings 1.2 Mil last season.
Jeff Carter had a caphit over $5M last season and was an integral member of the Kings Stanley Cup run, no matter what you think. He was on the Stanley Cup winning 23-man roster.

So don't give me that BS reasoning that he only costed 1.2M.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:39 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Not sure if anyone linked the Andy Strickland article about the Subban negotiation but here is a rather telling quote.

One NHL Executive recently told me, “You can’t pay Subban more because Markov got hurt.”

Full article here http://t.co/41MSKkNq
If Markov was healthy PK's numbers would be better.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:40 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
none of these teams repeated.
That has nothing to do with those contracts. LMAO

It has more to do with the limited time span of the sample.

And btw, on such a short sample, Pittsburg almost did it and Malkin was making the big bucks. They had 4 players taking up more than 25 mil on a much smaller cap than today.

The relative smallness of the sample is just ridiculous to make any form of correlation at this point. Those are occurrences that have to do with the beginning of a format, an evolving format that will show new trends once the structure will have given it more shape and the time span will give a much bigger sample.

The way you see it is a perfect example of the texas sharpshooter fallacy.

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01-26-2013, 06:40 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
none of these teams repeated.
No team ever repeated in the cap era. And other than Pitts-Det, none even made it to the finals twice.

And as Oz keeps repeating, your sample is tiny.
After the lockout 5M cap hit represented 12.5% of the total cap. That's huge.
Today, almost half of that.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:41 PM
  #934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
If Markov was healthy PK's numbers would be better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I'd also had that it is very short sighted to believe PK is asking money because Markov got hurt. He's asking for some cash because he stepped up effectively.
Markov getting injured only opened the door. It's been like that for years. A player gets injured, some of the guys that were behind him steps up.
Good points.

That article was pure nonsense.

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01-26-2013, 06:41 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
6 X 4.5 = 27

5 (over two years, bridge contract / 2.2 + 2.9 as posted previously) + [4 X 5.5] = 27

it does add up, thank you very much. Besides, it was just an example, even if there a Million or two difference, over 6 years it isnt all that much.
My mistake, I thought you meant per year over the first 2 (which really confused me as to what your argument was ).

My point still stands though. The Habs should be the ones fighting for the longer term.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:44 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
If Markov was healthy PK's numbers would be better.
Not necessarily. PK is not banking on his points, but more on the fact he was used as a #1 Dman in the absence of Markov (24 min TOIPG, Habs 10th in GAA).

Maybe he would've had more points, but he would've played less. He would be a much closer comparable to MDZ rather than Carlson in that case.

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01-26-2013, 06:45 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by E = CH˛ View Post
Not gonna lie, this is one of the worst articles I've ever read.

First, the quote makes no sense and is given out of context.

Second, this part irked me :



How about the other names he forgot to mention ? Myers, Carlson, Staal, Hedman, Vlasic, etc. No, it's much better to just mention the 2 that can't be compared to Subban to prove a point that has no basis in reality.

Then he says this :



He didn't have the same qualms giving long term deals to Price and Pacioretty and didn't know them any more than he knows Subban ?

Just a terrible terrible article by someone who has very little clue... or logic.
I totally agree with your assessment of the article. I added the quote because it says something to me about how management will resort to false logic / ridiculous arguments to justify underpaying athletes.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:46 PM
  #938
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I wouldnt mind doing something like the Phil Kessel deal with Columbus. Landing Seth Jones and a top 10 pick and a second round.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:47 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I totally agree with your assessment of the article. I added the quote because it says something to me about how management will resort to false logic / ridiculous arguments to justify underpaying athletes.
Dishonest arguments make me angry !

But thank you for posting it nonetheless. There has got to be a good article with a contrary opinion to mine out there.. I have yet to read it but it must exist.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:50 PM
  #940
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Not necessarily. PK is not banking on his points, but more on the fact he was used as a #1 Dman in the absence of Markov (24 min TOIPG, Habs 10th in GAA).

Maybe he would've had more points, but he would've played less. He would be a much closer comparable to MDZ rather than Carlson in that case.
Not sure he would have necessarily played less, especially not last year. We made some older vets play more than they should because of Markov's loss, namely, Hammer, Spacek and Gill. These guys would have played less, PK might have dropped a minute down, but I don't think his icetime would have really dropped a lot.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:54 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not sure he would have necessarily played less, especially not last year. We made some older vets play more than they should because of Markov's loss, namely, Hammer, Spacek and Gill. These guys would have played less, PK might have dropped a minute down, but I don't think his icetime would have really dropped a lot.
Really? With Markov playing 20+ minutes, PK would not play 24 mins a game. My guess is PK would be around 18-20 mins, which depending on the game would go to 22 or so.

How much did he play the few games they were together? Too lazy to check right now.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:55 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
Jeff Carter had a caphit over $5M last season and was an integral member of the Kings Stanley Cup run, no matter what you think. He was on the Stanley Cup winning 23-man roster.

So don't give me that BS reasoning that he only costed 1.2M
.
most of wich was paid be the Jackets.

he DID cost 1.2 Mil to the Kings.

with JJ cap hit to the Kings (who he was traded for) you are still below 5 Mil.

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01-26-2013, 06:56 PM
  #943
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
My mistake, I thought you meant per year over the first 2 (which really confused me as to what your argument was ).

My point still stands though. The Habs should be the ones fighting for the longer term.
too lazy to check, but I think Habs dont have enough space this season to offer something like 4 or 4.5 per.

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01-26-2013, 06:56 PM
  #944
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Really? With Markov playing 20+ minutes, PK would not play 24 mins a game. My guess is PK would be around 18-20 mins, which depending on the game would go to 22 or so.

How much did he play the few games they were together? Too lazy to check right now.
Considering Boullion has played over 22 minutes in two out of three games, if Subban is only playing 18 minutes a game something is very wrong.

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:58 PM
  #945
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Considering Boullion has played over 22 minutes in two out of three games, if Subban is only playing 18 minutes a game something is very wrong.
bouillon is playing 22 because Kaberle is hardly taking any 5-5 shifts and playing 12-13 mins a game the last two games.

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01-26-2013, 06:59 PM
  #946
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
That has nothing to do with those contracts. LMAO

It has more to do with the limited time span of the sample.

And btw, on such a short sample, Pittsburg almost did it and Malkin was making the big bucks. They had 4 players taking up more than 25 mil on a much smaller cap than today.

The relative smallness of the sample is just ridiculous to make any form of correlation at this point. Those are occurrences that have to do with the beginning of a format, an evolving format that will show new trends once the structure will have given it more shape and the time span will give a much bigger sample.

The way you see it is a perfect example of the texas sharpshooter fallacy.
close to a decade.

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01-26-2013, 07:02 PM
  #947
holyhabs87
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Really? With Markov playing 20+ minutes, PK would not play 24 mins a game. My guess is PK would be around 18-20 mins, which depending on the game would go to 22 or so.

How much did he play the few games they were together? Too lazy to check right now.
Quickly glanced through it only picked 8-games..he played 28 minutes 3 times, 27 once, 25, 23, 21 and 20

We have to remember Markov was being eased in. He played less than 18 minutes most games

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01-26-2013, 07:03 PM
  #948
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
No team ever repeated in the cap era. And other than Pitts-Det, none even made it to the finals twice.

And as Oz keeps repeating, your sample is tiny.
After the lockout 5M cap hit represented 12.5% of the total cap. That's huge.
Today, almost half of that.
close to a decade.

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01-26-2013, 07:04 PM
  #949
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I wouldnt mind doing something like the Phil Kessel deal with Columbus. Landing Seth Jones and a top 10 pick and a second round.
Oh you wouldn't mind that, would you? Seth Jones on his own would be larceny.

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:05 PM
  #950
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Ok I went and checked, the last 4-5 games of the season, except for one game where they both played 20mins, PK was playing 25-27 mins per game and Markov around 15-18

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