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P.K. Subban Thread - MK VIII - 'Week-end of Angst' Edition

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01-26-2013, 07:06 PM
  #951
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Really? With Markov playing 20+ minutes, PK would not play 24 mins a game. My guess is PK would be around 18-20 mins, which depending on the game would go to 22 or so.

How much did he play the few games they were together? Too lazy to check right now.
Last year, the two times Markov played over 20min (21-22min), PK played 27 and 28min. However Markov was coming back from injuries.
The season before, PK was a rookie, and Markov only played early in the year. So it's only normal for PK to be broken in and not given big minutes early.

All in all, there's no way to know. PK would likely lose a little time, maybe a minute or two here or there, but not that much. It's not like he struggled with the heavy load.
Other guys like Hammer and Spacek did though. And guys like Gill should never play 20min, just like this year, no way Bouillon would play 20min+ with PK in the line up.

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01-26-2013, 07:07 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Last year, the two times Markov played over 20min (21-22min), PK played 27 and 28min. However Markov was coming back from injuries.
The season before, PK was a rookie, and Markov only played early in the year. So it's only normal for PK to be broken in and not given big minutes early.

All in all, there's no way to know. PK would likely lose a little time, maybe a minute or two here or there, but not that much. It's not like he struggled with the heavy load.
Other guys like Hammer and Spacek did though. And guys like Gill should never play 20min, just like this year, no way Bouillon would play 20min+ with PK in the line up.
Yeah, I checked too. No way to know what Therrien would do, but if used the same, you are right, his ice time should not decline that much.

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:09 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Last year, the two times Markov played over 20min (21-22min), PK played 27 and 28min. However Markov was coming back from injuries.
The season before, PK was a rookie, and Markov only played early in the year. So it's only normal for PK to be broken in and not given big minutes early.

All in all, there's no way to know. PK would likely lose a little time, maybe a minute or two here or there, but not that much. It's not like he struggled with the heavy load.
Other guys like Hammer and Spacek did though. And guys like Gill should never play 20min, just like this year, no way Bouillon would play 20min+ with PK in the line up.
obviously, Bouillion would come back to his side, left, where there's already Gorges and Markov ahead of him.

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01-26-2013, 07:11 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
close to a decade.
It's actually closer to 5years than a decade.
There have been 7 winners, and in the first year, 5M hit represented 12.5% of the total cap. Today, it's down to almost half at 7%.
As the cap keeps rising (after next year), teams will be able to afford dishing out more cash to more people. Heck, this year, you only have 7 teams with less than 5M in cap space still available. It's only because there's a drop next year that there's a small concern, but after that it will likely keep rising again.
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
too lazy to check, but I think Habs dont have enough space this season to offer something like 4 or 4.5 per.
We have 6.4M in free cap space.

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01-26-2013, 07:21 PM
  #955
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This is a bizarre saga. With the figures being tossed around from both parties, there has to be more to this. Either the reported numbers are wrong, or there's something deeper going on.

Its like our own little version of the NHL lockout. A deal is there to be made, and neither side is benefiting from the whole ordeal, but neither side wants to budge. The posturing just doesn't end.

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01-26-2013, 07:22 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
This is a bizarre saga. With the figures being tossed around from both parties, there has to be more to this. Either the reported numbers are wrong, or there's something deeper going on.
We need to go deeper.


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Old
01-26-2013, 07:28 PM
  #957
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For whatever it's worth, I was early in recognizing Bergevin as a bad GM:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...17&postcount=9

Quote:
Bergevin is still in his honeymoon phase, where people are willing to forgive his failures:

- Subban contract situation
- Prust + Moen contracts
- Thought Shane Doan would be the answer
- No trades to improve the team thus far
- Hired his friends specifically for nearly all positions
- The circus in Hamilton
- Therrien
I still hope I'm wrong. I got a lot of flaming for that post, a lot of hate, but unfortunately time is proving me to be largely correct.

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:29 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's actually closer to 5years than a decade.
There have been 7 winners, and in the first year, 5M hit represented 12.5% of the total cap. Today, it's down to almost half at 7%.
As the cap keeps rising (after next year), teams will be able to afford dishing out more cash to more people. Heck, this year, you only have 7 teams with less than 5M in cap space still available. It's only because there's a drop next year that there's a small concern, but after that it will likely keep rising again.


We have 6.4M in free cap space.
at the end of the day, you still need cheap players (relative to the cap) that will give you great performances, youngsters on ELC or a 2nd contract are the most likely to give you that.

the Hawks are the perfect example of that, they had solid performances from Keith, Kane and Toews who were (relatively) cheap and they won a cup... they renewed those three players contract to reflect their "worth", and to afford that they had to ditch their depth players...

since then, they have a hard time wnning a round of P.O.



now us, who havent won a cup with the current youngsters, are about to give them all (I know, it's not like we have a dozen of em) raises that reflect their worth... thing is, we havent won a cup with them yet. the "great performance for cheap" window is closed - for these players at the very least.

And we even have people questionning (I know, not you) MB saying he was dumb to sign Prust for 2.5 Mil... 2.5 Mil, that's where we are at, not being able to afford depth players cause they want 2.5 Mil, seriously ?

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:32 PM
  #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For whatever it's worth, I was early in recognizing Bergevin as a bad GM:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...17&postcount=9



I still hope I'm wrong. I got a lot of flaming for that post, a lot of hate, but unfortunately time is proving me to be largely correct.
- you have no clue how the Subban situation will end
- Prust is proving to be a GREAT signing
- the circus seems to have been a media circus more than anything
- Therrien is doing more than fine so far.

time have proven squat.

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01-26-2013, 07:33 PM
  #960
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The Pacioretty injury just put even more pressure on Bergevin to get this thing done. The Habs will NOT survive too much longer without 2 of their better ES players. No way.

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:35 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
The Pacioretty injury just put even more pressure on Bergevin to get this thing done. The Habs will NOT survive too much longer without 2 of their better ES players. No way.
I dont remember many fans or experts saying the Habs would do any good this season. Losing players and games wouldnt put much more pressure on Bergevin IMO

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01-26-2013, 07:38 PM
  #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For whatever it's worth, I was early in recognizing Bergevin as a bad GM:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...17&postcount=9



I still hope I'm wrong. I got a lot of flaming for that post, a lot of hate, but unfortunately time is proving me to be largely correct.
I wouldn't say largely correct, but so far I'm not impressed.

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:43 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I dont remember many fans or experts saying the Habs would do any good this season. Losing players and games wouldnt put much more pressure on Bergevin IMO
Yes it does imo. If the Habs start losing and Subban isn't signed it kind of shows that the Habs aren't doing anything to solve the losing problems and with the lockout that just ended, fans will make sure very quickly that Bergevin needs to sign our best D-man.

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01-26-2013, 07:45 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For whatever it's worth, I was early in recognizing Bergevin as a bad GM
We are three games into a season after a long lockout. You are a special talent and your observations astute. Don't bruise yourself as you pound your chest

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01-26-2013, 07:45 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by jmdubois585 View Post
Yes it does imo. If the Habs start losing and Subban isn't signed it kind of shows that the Habs aren't doing anything to solve the losing problems and with the lockout that just ended, fans will make sure very quickly that Bergevin needs to sign our best D-man.
please tell me, where did you expect the habs to finish this year ?

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01-26-2013, 07:47 PM
  #966
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
close to a decade.
7 years


That's a small sample, especially considering that the cap margin is ever increasing giving way to very different occurrences than you will see in the formative years of the cap format.

repeating that it's close a decade won't change this fact.

I think you should ask any statistics expert if he thinks 10 years is a good sample for any given subject that is analyzed on a yearly basis, or in other words, if something happening twice out of 10 occurrences is any relevant.

That person will find it extremely funny that you just keep repeating "but it's 10 times!!!"

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01-26-2013, 07:48 PM
  #967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For whatever it's worth, I was early in recognizing Bergevin as a bad GM:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...17&postcount=9



I still hope I'm wrong. I got a lot of flaming for that post, a lot of hate, but unfortunately time is proving me to be largely correct.
The language that Bergevin and Therien speak at the microphone is the reason they are here, and if that trend has to continue we will always be limited as to who holds the keys to the franchise.

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01-26-2013, 07:49 PM
  #968
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We are three games into a season after a long lockout. You are a special talent and your observations astute. Don't bruise yourself as you pound your chest
My observations are completely independent of the 3 games. I'm judging his decision making, not the statistical fluctuations on the ice.

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:51 PM
  #969
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
7 years


That's a small sample, especially considering that the cap margin is ever increasing giving way to very different occurrences than you will see in the formative years of the cap format.

repeating that it's close a decade won't change this fact.

I think you should ask any statistics expert if he thinks 10 years is a good sample for any given subject that is analyzed on a yearly basis, or in other words, if something happening twice out of 10 occurrences is any relevant.

That person will find it extremely funny that you just keep repeating "but it's 10 times!!!"
we'll be at 8 next summer. Although I suspect Kings could repeat as they still have very important pieces on the cheap. After this season, once Quick new contract kicks in and Voynov gets a raise, you'll see their GM getting rid of solid 3rd liners and 5th D to save some $, and by doing so he'll kill the depth his team has and Kings will go back to being a bubble team.

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01-26-2013, 07:54 PM
  #970
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The language that Bergevin and Therien speak at the microphone is the reason they are here, and if that trend has to continue we will always be limited as to who holds the keys to the franchise.
Sadly true but I kinda understand it.

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01-26-2013, 07:57 PM
  #971
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Wow we just lost Max Pacioretty for 3-4 weeks. Bring on Lars Moen.

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Old
01-26-2013, 07:59 PM
  #972
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lol Glenn Healy thinks Montreal is good for taking advantage of PK not having arb rights and Weeks says "the GM's I've talked to said they cannot believe Montreal is using these tactics".

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01-26-2013, 08:01 PM
  #973
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
we'll be at 8 next summer. Although I suspect Kings could repeat as they still have very important pieces on the cheap. After this season, once Quick new contract kicks in and Voynov gets a raise, you'll see their GM getting rid of solid 3rd liners and 5th D to save some $, and by doing so he'll kill the depth his team has and Kings will go back to being a bubble team.
Only because the CBA was rebooted with a new setting, 50% share, reducing the cap limit.

If the cap continued its ascension, you would've seen a 75 mil cap next summer, and an 80 mil cap the summer after that, and your pet theory would've went up in smoke as it certainly will do in a few years time as the cap rises again and we go out of the formative years of this relatively new system (8 years out of an history of +90 years). With a cap at 75 and then 80, Lombardi could've easily kept his team intact. And that's the point you seem adamant on ignoring.

You will be able to talk about such trends once the cap system has at least passed 30-50 years. In the meantime, all you've done is pinpointed an occurrence which, yes, will certainly repeat, but only for a short period of time because of the brakes that were put on the cap limit ascension.

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01-26-2013, 08:02 PM
  #974
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Weeks on the Hotstove says, "Every GM I have talked to can't believe Montreal's tactics on this." In regards to the PK negotiations. Take it for what its worth.

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Old
01-26-2013, 08:03 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Only because the CBA was rebooted with a new setting, 50% share, reducing the cap limit.

If the cap continued its ascension, you would've seen a 75 mil cap next summer, and an 80 mil cap the summer after that, and your pet theory would've went up in smoke as it certainly will do in a few years time as the cap rises again and we go out of the formative years of this relatively new system (8 years out of an history of +90 years).

You will be able to talk about such trends once the cap system has at least passed 30-50 years. In the meantime, all you've done is pinpointed an occurrence which, yes, will certainly repeat, but only for a short period of time because of the brakes that were put on the cap limit ascension.
and players asking for 8 MIl instead of 7, or 7 instead of 6...

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