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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Mario Lemieux vs Bobby Orr?

View Poll Results: Who was the better player?
Mario Lemieux 52 27.51%
Bobby Orr 137 72.49%
Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-24-2013, 05:04 PM
  #26
kdfsjljklgjfg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner View Post
199 points.
Orr had 135 playing DEFENSE.

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Old
01-24-2013, 05:28 PM
  #27
Darth Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg View Post
Orr had 135 playing DEFENSE.
Mostly offense i suppose right there, but sure he was a clearly better defensive player than Lemieux.

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Old
01-24-2013, 05:38 PM
  #28
Wizeman*
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1) Gretzky

2) Orr

3) Lemiuex

4) Howe

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Old
01-24-2013, 05:47 PM
  #29
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Another factor in favor of Orr - he actually had a pretty solid string of consecutive elite seasons, while Lemieux would take seasons off at a time and come back.
Yes, Orr had a string of 7 seasons that were great. 1968-'75. That bests Mario's best string from 1985-'90. However, we also have to keep in mind that when Mario was healthy he was the best player in the game those years too. He missed most of the 1991 season but dominated the playoffs. He then wins Art Rosses in 1992 and '93. Then misses most of two seasons, then wins two more in a row and then retires in 1997. So I think Mario makes up for it a bit considering Orr only had that string of elite seasons and nothing more while Mario has more elite seasons even if they are spread apart.

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01-24-2013, 07:02 PM
  #30
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Using the proper context, yes really.

Edit. Seems that jiggly already made the point.

I am not saying it is not debatable, but there definitely is a case for Orr in higher peak conversation.

Winning EVERY single major award possible is something that has never been done before and frankly i won't be surprised if we never see it again.
to my knowledge, only three players have ever swept the table at their position: nels stewart, guy lafleur, and gretzky (art ross, hart, pearson, and smythe for lafleur and gretzky; art ross, hart, retro smythe for stewart).

now if one of those guys had also won the selke... that might approach the all-round ridiculous dominance of orr that year.

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01-24-2013, 09:35 PM
  #31
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Lemieux conquered hockey, Orr changed hockey.

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Old
01-24-2013, 09:39 PM
  #32
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner View Post
Lets not act like Orr was a typical defensemen. He was basically a forward as well.
Having Bobby Orr on the ice was like having an extra player - he was basically a 4th superstar forward and a star defenseman at the same time.

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Old
01-24-2013, 10:09 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
to my knowledge, only three players have ever swept the table at their position: nels stewart, guy lafleur, and gretzky (art ross, hart, pearson, and smythe for lafleur and gretzky; art ross, hart, retro smythe for stewart).

now if one of those guys had also won the selke... that might approach the all-round ridiculous dominance of orr that year.
Beliveau 55-56 had probably the most dominating season plus playoffs up to that time


Last edited by Crosbyfan: 01-24-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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Old
01-25-2013, 01:17 AM
  #34
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Lemieux

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Old
01-25-2013, 06:47 PM
  #35
mranderson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner View Post
199 points.
Bernie Nicholls had 150 pts that same year.

Bernie.

Nicholls.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner View Post
Lets not act like Orr was a typical defensemen. He was basically a forward as well.
I'm still trying to determine the subtext of this comment:

a) Bobby Orr was a pure offensive defenseman who wasn't really all that great a defender.
b) Bobby Orr was so *** **** good, it was like having 2 skaters in 1.
c) Other.

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Old
01-25-2013, 07:18 PM
  #36
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I'm going with Mario lemieux on this. Even though Bobby Orr changed the way the game was play, Mario was flat out the most skilled-most talented hockey player to ever lace the skates.

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Old
01-25-2013, 08:48 PM
  #37
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Shouldn't their respective eras be accounted for? Wasn't the late 80s/90s significantly stronger than the late 60s/70s? Orr gets mythicized as some sort of demi-god, I'm just not sure it's entirely warranted.

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01-25-2013, 08:52 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
I'm going with Mario lemieux on this. Even though Bobby Orr changed the way the game was play, Mario was flat out the most skilled-most talented hockey player to ever lace the skates.
I'm inclined to agree. Incidentally, was Mario's peak '89 or '93? He played less regular season games in '93, but he acheived nearly identical ppg numbers in a league that was fully integrated.


Last edited by oolalaa: 01-25-2013 at 09:02 PM.
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Old
01-25-2013, 09:38 PM
  #39
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The nhl in 1973 and 74 was kinda weak, but i dont know where people are getting the notion that mario's era was stronger than the late 60s- early 70's. Orr competed against the likes of mikita-esposito-mahovlich-bobby hull, and later on in his career he was competing against bobby clarke and brad park was another legit hall of famer, yeah his competition is so bad.

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Old
01-25-2013, 10:24 PM
  #40
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Not even going to bother

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Old
01-25-2013, 11:04 PM
  #41
Darth Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mranderson View Post
Bernie Nicholls had 150 pts that same year.

Bernie.

Nicholls.
Yeah, but Nicholls played with Gretzky and Lemieux with Rob Brown and Dan Quinn. Mario did outscore the Great One by 31 points and in goals 32.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oolalaa View Post
Incidentally, was Mario's peak '89 or '93? He played less regular season games in '93, but he acheived nearly identical ppg numbers in a league that was fully integrated.
I think there are a few options. In 89 he played with **** on his line, in 93 he did'nt really score better adjusted and played with really good players but after coming off the radiation treatment that season he was absolutely sensational. In 1995-96 his first half of the season was also absolutely sensational even for his standards, i dont know what happened during the second half but he did miss the World Cup a full summer after that and then after the season retired becouse "he had lost a step". Maybe he simply the last five seasons or whatever just could'nt play a full schedule, as the cancer treatment obviously gave him some rest and then he took the whole 94-95 season off and as i said put on a show that fall.
Also, the 1991 playoffs was good but probably even better in 1992, both hindered by major injuries.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 01-26-2013 at 02:52 AM.
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Old
01-26-2013, 05:53 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Someone once wrote to the HOH-section that no matter what the poll asks, if you add Orr he is going to win.

Voted Orr, but it is close. My personal preference might have something to do with it since I am starting to get sick about Lemieux defender's who put him above Gretzky.

Both had arguably the same level peak as Gretzky and neither had longevity. Orr was just that much more impressive since he did not have his "Gretzky" before him. Without Gretzky I probably would vote for Lemieux.
Lemieux was not very close to Gretzky's peak - Orr and Gretzky had a similar peak.

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux

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Old
01-26-2013, 06:01 PM
  #43
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I will take Lemieux because im a homer

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01-26-2013, 07:59 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Having Bobby Orr on the ice was like having an extra player - he was basically a 4th superstar forward and a star defenseman at the same time.
He also was tough as nails.

I saw every game he ever played. Many in person. He was special beyond what the few videos in existence show.

Orr , Gretzky, and Howe are the top 3 . To each his own how to rate them. Those are the arguments that over a few beers make for a great night in any pub. I have Orr but believe there is no wrong answer.
Milt Schmidt, one of the greatest too but now belonging to history, refers to them as the holy trinity of hockey. The old guy speaks full of wisdom, IMO.

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01-26-2013, 08:05 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Someone once wrote to the HOH-section that no matter what the poll asks, if you add Orr he is going to win.
This.

He's to HOH what two way forwards are to the regular boards.

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01-26-2013, 08:39 PM
  #46
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I think you should have had a third option for this poll: "I don't know, but I think my head is going to explode trying to figure it out."

Probably my two all-time favorite players. I couldn't choose, but the arguments I have seen for both sides are compelling.

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Old
01-26-2013, 09:17 PM
  #47
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Orr's era was the weakest in hockey. I'll take Lemieux here. Feel free to disagree, I also have Howe ahead of orr. These sound defense arguments for orr are overly exaggerated. You can't be two places at once, Bobby Orr is no exception.

Lemieux was the most talented player to lace up skates imo, but hesuffers career wise to gretzky, howe. I tend to think Lemieux/Orr's careers are rather close.

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01-26-2013, 10:01 PM
  #48
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Orr was the more dominant force in his era. If two guys with identical builds and skillsets were in the 2013 draft, I'd pick the Lemieux clone (assuming he doesn't come with a congenital back defect). Orr is a very strange case... he played a style which is difficult to translate to today's game, an unprecedented style in league in the midst of an awkward growth spurt. I see Orr play and I see things that won't work anymore, and frankly I see a less capable player than Lemieux. I mean holy jesus, these guys wouldn't know what to against a huge machine like Lemieux and he'd turn the goalies inside out with his reach effortlessly. You can't abuse modern players like Orr was doing to 70s slugs.

I'm not knocking Orr. He has the insane skills and the smarts and the grit to be the best player now, too, he'd adapt to a new environment. And I'm not forgetting the equipment, training and medical factors. But I can't be sure of precisely how effective the adjustments would be and how much his offensive dominance would be mitigated. I have no idea how a d-man of any skill level could challenge for an Art Ross today, the openings aren't there. I have no doubt Lemieux would drop right in and shred the league exactly as he always could.

Orr used to be so much faster than everybody else, but it wouldn't be like that now, even if he was the fastest player in the league you still wouldn't see the kind of stuff he used to pull off, plays that just aren't feasible now. Whereas Lemieux's skill and size is something still totally unprecedented and unrivaled by anyone then or now. What tactical evolutions can there be to take away from a guy with a seriously godlike size/skill element, short of loading all the bluelines with Zdeno Charas? He'd just do what he always did, even the big Shea Webers of the world wouldn't be able to reach the puck.

I do think a healthy Lemieux is the ultimate, era-proof hockey player


Last edited by revolverjgw: 01-26-2013 at 10:32 PM.
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Old
01-26-2013, 10:01 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
These sound defense arguments for orr are overly exaggerated. You can't be two places at once, Bobby Orr is no exception.
Ah, the old "he scores a ton of points so he's not very good defensively" argument against offensive defensemen.

Orr was an extremely strong skater, and was able to get back quickly after joining the offense. Just because he played up doesn't mean it was impossible for him to get back.

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01-26-2013, 10:18 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg View Post
Ah, the old "he scores a ton of points so he's not very good defensively" argument against offensive defensemen.

Orr was an extremely strong skater, and was able to get back quickly after joining the offense. Just because he played up doesn't mean it was impossible for him to get back.
I could make the exact same argument for Coffey.

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