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Old
01-26-2013, 10:57 PM
  #51
Billy Batts
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The bright side, Reimer has looked pretty good.

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01-26-2013, 11:00 PM
  #52
Woll Smoth
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Originally Posted by Ash35 View Post
5 is streching it. Very few teams do.
Based on scoring alone, Kessel is an elite player. Just like they described Reilly at the draft. He's got 1 dimension, but he is among the elite players at that dimension.

Overall, Kessel is a VERY poor player. No board work, no physical play and goes out of his way to avoid any contact. No heart whatsoever.

I've never seen a player half ass skate as much as Kessel. When the puck is along the boards he'll often coast toward it and let the opposing player get the puck first. A lot of people were saying that his back checking has improved. Haven't seen that at all. He's easily intimidated. You'll notice the Bruins abuse Kessel for the first 5-10 minutes of the game before he goes invisible for the rest of the game.

There are a lot of players I'd rather have at this point than Kessel. This includes Seguin alone.

This is coming from a guy with a $400 framed Kessel picture hanging off his wall.


The day Kessel gets traded or leaves the team you'll see 99% of the fan base turn on the guy.

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01-26-2013, 11:01 PM
  #53
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The problem with Leafs management ever since the 2004-05 lockout is that they have assembled a team with no foundation, no backbone. Rather than first acquiring two or three core players you can build a team around, they've acquired a set of players who, while talented in their own right, require an essential infrastructure to be in place before they can access their full potential (see: Kessel without a centreman, Phaneuf without an experienced, responsible defensive partner, etc.).

What we have is a supporting cast with no lead actors.

I think Burke made some tremendous trades, in that he made several trades in which we received more in return than what we sent away. But that does not mean the trades that he made addressed the most pressing needs of this team.

The most pressing needs of this team are in net, and at first-line centre, and not just because of who we have on the roster right now. These are, arguably, the two most important positions in hockey, because having talent in these areas enables the entire team to perform markedly better. We should have filled them first.

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01-26-2013, 11:02 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I'll list them:

Rangers: Gaborik, Nash, Richards
Hawks: Toews, Hossa, Kane
Penguins: Crosby, Malkin, Neal <---debatable but if Neal plays with Malkin, he's a good player.
TB: Stamkos, Marty St. Louis, Vinny
Vancouver: Sedin, Sedin, Kesler
Anaheim: Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne
Edmonton: RNH, Hall, Eberle
SJ: Thornton, Marleau...and the crew

I'd say all those teams have at least 3 players that are similar to Kessel, if not better.

We have one.
Let's not underrate our players too much, I hate when fans treat other teams' players like gods and our owns like a bunch of garbage.

Lupul is up there when playing solid, not counting him JVR has huge potential(and has already started hot).

Dont get me wrong, we're in need of another piece or two, but I will really like our top 6 once we get that #1 C. And we'll really like our defense once Gardiner and Rielly reach their potential(as well as other guys like Finn, percy etc.)

We definitely should have MORE pieces by now, but we dont, however I wouldn't say our future is bleak, IMO we're a #1 G from playoffs, then a #1 C from deep contention, we have all the other pieces in our system.

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01-26-2013, 11:04 PM
  #55
Marco Esquandolas
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The biggest problem that I can see with this team is a completely ****ing spastic fanbase who preach patience but don't practice it.

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01-26-2013, 11:05 PM
  #56
Ash35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I'll list them:

Rangers: Gaborik, Nash, Richards
Hawks: Toews, Hossa, Kane
Penguins: Crosby, Malkin, Neal <---debatable but if Neal plays with Malkin, he's a good player.
TB: Stamkos, Marty St. Louis, Vinny
Vancouver: Sedin, Sedin, Kesler
Anaheim: Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Selanne
Edmonton: RNH, Hall, Eberle
SJ: Thornton, Marleau...and the crew

I'd say all those teams have at least 3 players that are similar to Kessel, if not better.

We have one.
I would argue on some of those players. Is it really that important to have 3 stars on the top line? 3 of the teams you mentioned didn't even make the playoffs last year.

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01-26-2013, 11:09 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeylaw View Post
The problem with Leafs management ever since the 2004-05 lockout is that they have assembled a team with no foundation, no backbone. Rather than first acquiring two or three core players you can build a team around, they've acquired a set of players who, while talented in their own right, require an essential infrastructure to be in place before they can access their full potential (see: Kessel without a centreman, Phaneuf without an experienced, responsible defensive partner, etc.).

What we have is a supporting cast with no lead actors.

I think Burke made some tremendous trades, in that he made several trades in which we received more in return than what we sent away. But that does not mean the trades that he made addressed the most pressing needs of this team.

The most pressing needs of this team are in net, and at first-line centre, and not just because of who we have on the roster right now. These are, arguably, the two most important positions in hockey, because having talent in these areas enables the entire team to perform markedly better. We should have filled them first.
Well said.

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01-26-2013, 11:10 PM
  #58
Pi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash35 View Post
I would argue on some of those players. Is it really that important to have 3 stars on the top line? 3 of the teams you mentioned didn't even make the playoffs last year.
No it's not important. I don't know why you brought up that point actually , I was just showing you that there are teams that have a lot more talent than the Leafs.

We covet Kessel but forget that as good as he is, he still has a lot of deficiencies like many players on this team.

Leafs need to play to a system that hides those deficiencies...we just sat back after scoring 2 goals and just waited to get ambushed.

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01-26-2013, 11:12 PM
  #59
Woll Smoth
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Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
The biggest problem that I can see with this team is a completely ****ing spastic fanbase who preach patience but don't practice it.
40+ years no cup
Coming up on 10 years of no playoffs.
5 Years of top 10 draft picks with almost nothing to show for it.

No patience.

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01-26-2013, 11:20 PM
  #60
Pi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woll Smoth View Post
40+ years no cup
Coming up on 10 years of no playoffs.
5 Years of top 10 draft picks with almost nothing to show for it.

No patience.
Yeah, Leaf fans have no patience.

We've wrote the damn book on patience.

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01-26-2013, 11:20 PM
  #61
achtungbaby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
The biggest problem that I can see with this team is a completely ****ing spastic fanbase who preach patience but don't practice it.
The Leafs problem is the fans? So if we trade our fans for LA's we'll be a good team? I'll call U-haul, everyone start packing.

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01-26-2013, 11:24 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
No it's not important. I don't know why you brought up that point actually , I was just showing you that there are teams that have a lot more talent than the Leafs.

We covet Kessel but forget that as good as he is, he still has a lot of deficiencies like many players on this team.

Leafs need to play to a system that hides those deficiencies...we just sat back after scoring 2 goals and just waited to get ambushed.
The Leafs weren't sitting back,they were lucky it wasn't 7-0.It looked like the Rangers were playing the Marlies.This is about the only time I have agreed with Healy.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:34 PM
  #63
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Reimer was probably the best Leaf tonight and they still lost. When will everybody stop blaming the goalies for the lackluster efforts put out by the team. Tonight was proof that even decent goaltending isn't going to be putting this team in contention. The Rangers dominated and were fully deserving of the victory. Any other outcome would have been an injustice. 9 shots after two periods.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:49 PM
  #64
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I think that some of you guys are over reacting a bit and some of you are absolutely right on some points. The Leafs are on the verge of becoming that team that others dont want to play. There is some minor tweaks that have to worked out first tho. Bozak as much as I like him is not a #1 centre, that is a killer when compared to other teams. Defense??????? I dont know what happens but it seems like after 2 periods they just float and forget to position themselves. The breakout is horrid and simple plays look like they hit the ice for the very first time in their lives. I dont think blaming Kostka is the problem, in fact he plays very well. I watch Liles and Komiserak and they look horrible out there, and cough up the puck consistantly (Liles more than Komi). Fraser looked ok out there and Gunnarson has consistancy issues as well(but I think its just getting back into form issue). Gardiner will be back once he gets his legs going again and that will help with breaking out of the defensive zone.
Reimer was unreal tonite and should be the true #1 from here forward. Scrivens isnt ready to just yet and a good back-up to Reims.
Should the Leafs go after Subban? Yes. The kid is from Toronto and would be a great addition to the blue line. He would help the PP, he has great vision and would be mentored from Phaneuf and learn sooo much from Carlyle and co.
Leafs need to get rid of Komi,Franson,Mac,Steck and Liles- hopefully get those addtions.
It is very early still but these issues have to be solved now in order to have any success.

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Old
01-26-2013, 11:55 PM
  #65
charliolemieux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
The biggest problem that I can see with this team is a completely ****ing spastic fanbase who preach patience but don't practice it.
That is just ****ing awesome!

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01-26-2013, 11:58 PM
  #66
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Reimer was probably the best Leaf tonight and they still lost. When will everybody stop blaming the goalies for the lackluster efforts put out by the team. Tonight was proof that even decent goaltending isn't going to be putting this team in contention. The Rangers dominated and were fully deserving of the victory. Any other outcome would have been an injustice. 9 shots after two periods.
OK so are you ready to sell?

Prepared to finish last?

Willing to move anyone not named Lupul, Kessel and Rielly?

IF so, then climb on board.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:01 AM
  #67
devilishleafs
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selling isnt the solution but trading some pieces for better system requiements is a way to help the 1st line and defense. Goaltending isnt the issue, so we look towards board work and breakouts. Dont forget they just played the NY Rangers who are predicted to win it all.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:08 AM
  #68
p.l.f.
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easiest thing to do would be to buy an instant contender
dump as much salary as possible

then buy 3 all star calibre free agents and we're set

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01-27-2013, 12:12 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longshot View Post
I have a serious question. I'm not being sarcastic. And I'm not being flippant.

But, again - seriously - how many years does it take to conclude that it's not working with Kessel and Phaneuf as the focal points of your team?

I like Phil Kessel and I like Dion Phaneuf. I think both are excellent NHL players that would excel on good team. Just imagine Phaneuf on the Rangers. Or Kessel with the Kings. Wow, is what I think.

However, at some point does management not have to look at this situation and conclude it's not working with them as focal points? How long does it take to come to the conclusion that they both would be better off in support roles? And what happens when management does reach that conclusion? Is that when a full rebuild begins?
came here to post this exact same thing, and honestly could not have said it any better.

These players are great to have, but should not be the best the team has to offer.

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01-27-2013, 12:19 AM
  #70
TrueBlue86
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Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
This fan base is my problem. I've never been more annoyed than I am this year.
to the contrary. what are we supposed to do, pretend we're blind sheep and say the team is 'close?'

folks, tonight we got outclassed, simple as that.

this team is not close, not close to anything. i feel like we're so far away that if we make the playoffs in 3-5 years some ppl would feel content. we're so far away from competing for the cup that it's not even in sight. it's not even on anyone's mind.

this thread has some of the best and most realistic posts i've read on this forum because it looks at the BIG PICTURE, which is: this team stinks.

one bit of hope we do have is that burke is gone and nonnis is in charge. if we are lucky he will bottom out completely and let us acquire those 2-3 pieces to build the team around (rielly might be one of those pieces already).

burke was so married to phil and dion that it would be scary to think what this team would look under him in 5 years. probably not much different than tonight.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:21 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Rusty545 View Post
came here to post this exact same thing, and honestly could not have said it any better.

These players are great to have, but should not be the best the team has to offer.
I dont really understand this? What are we gonna do then, sell them off?

we can tank with them on the team you know, why toss Kessel or Phaneuf for Picks/lesser players in hopes that we get a prospect that will replace them one day?

we can get a huge player if we drop in this draft(which is possible with poor goaltending), so if we get the #1 C this draft, what other GLARING hole do we really have?(minus the #1 G but that's hard to find even through the draft.)

Seriously we only need one more big draft IMO, we have alot of solid support pieces and everything else could be filled through minor trades, I dont see this as a team that's years away, it's one big draft from being a tough team to play against IMO.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:23 AM
  #72
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Yes OP I agree we're not perfect in every area but I'd like to see this team with a number 1 C and goalie before ripping the entire core. The team has some solid pieces and I think we really missed Lupul and Gardiner tonight. Gardiner helps out our transition game A LOT... we could hardly make a pass and get of the zone tonight... Lupul is skilled and gutsy enough to be a guy that would help prevent a night like tonight happening. 2 huge guys missing right there. Seeing as how we aren't getting that number 1 C via trade... I agree stripping it all down and starting over wouldn't be the worst thing.

Trade Kessel, Phaneuf, Grabovski, Lupul and you would get HUGE returns.

Build with Kadri, JVR, Gardiner, Reilly and go from there in full out re-build... but actually COMMIT to the rebuild and not change your mind half way through and "re-tool" and trade 2 1st rounds picks like they did this time.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:23 AM
  #73
7even
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The Leafs aren't just missing a #1 centre. They are missing a lot of pieces. They are missing size. They are missing stability on the backend. They are missing EFFORT from their best offensive player. They are missing focus. They are missing 4th line players who can ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE and are not a liability when they are on the ice. They are missing stability in net. They are missing a #1 defenceman. They are missing a #2 defenceman. The Leafs absolutely hung Reimer out to dry tonight, and it was embarrassing to watch.

It's been 10 years of this garbage.

10 years, folks.


What are the steps to right the ship? Finish in the bottom 5? Trade assets for prospects?

Yes people, I know its been 5 games, and that's not a lot. But wer'e seeing the SAME THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, that we have seen for YEARS NOW! How many times, how many flipping times have we seen the EXACT same goal as the Rangers scored for their first goal tonight. Shot from the point. A rebound - opposition players given free reign in front of the net to whack away at the puck as they please - no dmen clearing them out, no dmen even tying up their sticks, and lazy backchecking from the forwards. It's the SAME OLD SONG AND DANCE, people. It's been 5 games but it might as well be 100 games, because this team has not changed.
Oh **** you're right. That's been a decade of my life man ****


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Old
01-27-2013, 12:26 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Yobbles View Post
In other news: The sky is blue.
Blue with falling Leafs!!!!!

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:27 AM
  #75
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Question: When's the last time any team literally gutted it's core or high-end pieces and started over? I'm not talking a vet team with a bunch of 30+ year olds, I mean a team that sold off guys like Phaneuf, Grabo, Kessel, Lupul etc. all youngish guys with talent, just to start over? Has it EVER happened?

so why do people keep posting proposals like this?

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