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Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

View Poll Results: How long do you give Dan?
Fire him now 18 22.22%
15 games 33 40.74%
30 games 4 4.94%
Fire him if we fail in the play-offs 23 28.40%
Keep him till next year 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-26-2013, 09:25 PM
  #226
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'm sure it pleases Sid to no end that he gets Kunitz and Dupuis while Malkin gets stuck with a First Team All-Star. Damn favoritism.



Because he wins a lot, the players are on point with his message, and previous playoff losses can be attributed to other, greater determining factors which will both likely be addressed before the next post-season.

How's that?
So, he wins a lot in the regular season and there's always a convenient playoffs excuse (this year's, I suppose, will be 'we only had a 48 game season and no camp')? Well, absent something better, I'll hang my hat there.

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01-26-2013, 09:29 PM
  #227
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1. The counter actually was an adjustment in where they set up the 1-3-1 (a little back, if memory serves, to take away/disrupt the stretch passes).
Great. Now how does that affect Fleury's goaltending, which was the clear determining factor in those losses?

People act as if some change in tactics is what turned the tide. I'm really not sure how anyone can make that connection.

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2. What exactly do you want players to say but 'we need to play the right way'? I mean, if they like Bylsma personally, do you expect to hear Brooks Orpik style 'anonymous' rumblings like he did with his buddy Therrien? I don't think it works this way.

I'd like to add this: Notwithstanding how I 'lean', perhaps a little hard right now, on this, it doesn't mean that I'm unpersuaded as to what your saying and even that it arguably could be the best course. I suspect it's the same way in reverse for you. Like me, you're torn, hoping for the best, and really the difference here is how we're leaning right now. Am I reading that right, or do you genuinely see differently than me what's happened in the last 25 games, from a coaching perspective, with this team?
Players aren't obligated to say anything about the system, but they do, and never in a negative light. I don't remember hearing much about the system when Therrien was on his last legs.

I think DB has to learn lessons from last year's playoffs. That's it. I don't think he's a hack who's ridden on the backs of superstars and previous coaches his whole time here. He has been huge in the success of this team, and some (not necessarily you) seem all too eager to throw him aside without seeing how other changes can affect the team first.

A lot of the criticisms directed at Bylsma from previous series are pretty minor, and nothing that couldn't be leveled at any coach in the league. But we tend to look at our team in a bubble as the Cup incumbent, so anything that goes wrong must be attributable to coaching. The Tampa thing is a good example of that.

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01-26-2013, 09:34 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
So, he wins a lot in the regular season and there's always a convenient playoffs excuse (this year's, I suppose, will be 'we only had a 48 game season and no camp')? Well, absent something better, I'll hang my hat there.
I've never made an excuse for last year, and everyone plays a 48 game season. I don't see that as comparable to a Cup hangover/injuries to our stars.

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01-26-2013, 09:35 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'm sure it pleases Sid to no end that he gets Kunitz and Dupuis while Malkin gets stuck with a First Team All-Star. Damn favoritism.
People have seriously suggested Glass - Crosby - Dupuis. I'd love to see the reaction if Malkin were given Glass and Dupuis as regular linemates.

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01-26-2013, 09:38 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Great. Now how does that affect Fleury's goaltending, which was the clear determining factor in those losses?

People act as if some change in tactics is what turned the tide. I'm really not sure how anyone can make that connection.



Players aren't obligated to say anything about the system, but they do, and never in a negative light. I don't remember hearing much about the system when Therrien was on his last legs.

I think DB has to learn lessons from last year's playoffs. That's it. I don't think he's a hack who's ridden on the backs of superstars and previous coaches his whole time here. He has been huge in the success of this team, and some (not necessarily you) seem all too eager to throw him aside without seeing how other changes can affect the team first.
I suppose that's where we differ. I think the lessons to be learned extend further back than that. Maybe the biggest ones extend only another 15 games or so back, but there are other big lessons about bench management, etc that extend back to 2010.

As I said, this team desperately needed someone like Bylsma to swing the pendulum from the Therrien direction. He did it. And, the team won a cup because of it. Then, he just kept going. If he can self-correct and swing it back a little, then that's fine. He seems like a really nice guy, and like many here I wouldn't trade that cup in 2009 for anything. I just want him to show me something that he can self-correct. It's hard. Even the best coaches have trouble striking that balance and moving things one way or another as circumstances, player mix (in any given year), etc dictate. Before it, this team needed the anti-Edzo to swing the pendulum back from the country club direction. As I said, teams are fluid. Players grow older, new players need to be introduced, the personnel and how they mesh changes all the time, and the message from a coach grows less and less fresh.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I've never made an excuse for last year, and everyone plays a 48 game season. I don't see that as comparable to a Cup hangover/injuries to our stars.
Apparently, you didn't catch that my sarcastic tone and the tongue sticking out smilie was designed to introduce a little levity to our conversation here.

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01-26-2013, 09:41 PM
  #231
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People have seriously suggested Glass - Crosby - Dupuis. I'd love to see the reaction if Malkin were given Glass and Dupuis as regular linemates.
People also think Adams > Vitale. Take it with a grain of salt, and don't let it detract from the discussion of reasons why Bylsma is or isn't the right coach for the team.

Edit: And the reaction would be what was before the 2011-2012 season, when Geno played like **** with that all the time. My Tangradi-Comrie-Malkin line experiment was a Bylsma favorite, ranked right up there in the stupidity department (maybe even worse) with Edzo having Christensen center Crosby as a rookie.

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01-26-2013, 09:57 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I suppose that's where we differ. I think the lessons to be learned extend further back than that. Maybe the biggest ones extend only another 15 games or so back, but there are other big lessons about bench management, etc that extend back to 2010.

As I said, this team desperately needed someone like Bylsma to swing the pendulum from the Therrien direction. He did it. And, the team won a cup because of it. Then, he just kept going. If he can self-correct and swing it back a little, then that's fine. He seems like a really nice guy, and like many here I wouldn't trade that cup in 2009 for anything. I just want him to show me something that he can self-correct. It's hard. Even the best coaches have trouble striking that balance and moving things one way or another as circumstances, player mix (in any given year), etc dictate. Before it, this team needed the anti-Edzo to swing the pendulum back from the country club direction. As I said, teams are fluid. Players grow older, new players need to be introduced, the personnel and how they mesh changes all the time, and the message from a coach grows less and less fresh.
He's not perfect. My argument is just that most everything before last year involves relatively petty criticisms that you could accumulate for any coach. I'm not even sure there's a consensus group of the best coaches in the league, but I can't imagine it'd be too hard to find similar faults with any. As was stated earlier, Babcock has come up short with stacked teams just as often as Bylsma since 2009, and I don't think many would suggest he's an incapable coach.

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Apparently, you didn't catch that my sarcastic tone and the tongue sticking out smilie was designed to introduce a little levity to our conversation here.
Hard to know when anybody's being sarcastic here. DB's getting blamed for Fleury not being able to stop a beach ball, haha.

But I always have fun going back and forth witcha. Sharpens the mind to argue with somebody who knows what they're talking about...sort of.

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01-26-2013, 10:03 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
He's not perfect. My argument is just that most everything before last year involves relatively petty criticisms that you could accumulate for any coach. I'm not even sure there's a consensus group of the best coaches in the league, but I can't imagine it'd be too hard to find similar faults with any. As was stated earlier, Babcock has come up short with stacked teams just as often as Bylsma since 2009, and I don't think many would suggest he's an incapable coach.



Hard to know when anybody's being sarcastic here. DB's getting blamed for Fleury not being able to stop a beach ball, haha.

But I always have fun going back and forth witcha. Sharpens the mind to argue with somebody who knows what they're talking about...sort of.
As long as you recognize that you're wrong in the end, we're good.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Hey, I've actually got a question for people like Cole who've played competitively at a somewhat higher level than 99% of the people who post here:

Why do players seem to tune out a coach? Is it just delivery style? I've always thought that players pretty much do what the coach says. Some are more prone to freelance or play outside things a little more than others, but, for the most part, players start from a position of showing that they're completely with the program in terms of their play on the ice. Where things go south is when they feel as if they're doing what the coaches want and doing that results in a feeling that they're never in good position to make plays. So, they try to do more 'outside' the system to compensate, which only makes things worse and starts a downward spiral that escalates into seeing the type of stuff we've seen from the Pens in the last 25-30 games. The old saying 'tuning him out' really is an oversimplification (style can accelerate or decelerate/stop the spiral, but it's the on ice part that's really most important from a players perspective). Am I understanding the causes/consequences correctly? Or, is there more to it? As I said, I'd really appreciate hearing what the guys who play competitively think here.

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01-26-2013, 11:30 PM
  #234
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
The harsh truth is this: Coaches are hired to be fired, and they usually take an organization like a pendulum. Therrien was hired to introduce structure and discipline. He did it. And, then, like with any other coach, it became too much. Enter Bylsma, to move the pendulum in the other direction. In 2009, he moved it just enough, and the stars were in alignment. Thereafter, he's just kept moving it. A great coach, the guys who stay in jobs for years, recognize when they've swung too much in one direction and can pull it back some. Most can't do that, and the guy who was brilliant just a few years ago becomes wrong for precisely the reasons he once seemed so right. It's just how it works.
I'm sure the same logic would have been used in favor of canning Julien after his team had the biggest collapse in NHL history. Obviously the players had tuned him out, or he had a bunch of coaching flaws that every Bruins fan at the time would have been all too eager to point out.

Coaches being hired to fired is a cliche, one that holds true within certain organizations (perenniel losers, typically) more than it being an unwritten rule in the sports world. If you have a good coach, it's usually a good idea to hang on to him instead of looking to dismiss him every time you hit a rough patch. Especially a younger coach like Bylsma who could be one of the premiere coaches in the league for the next few decades. If the team hits a tailspin like Therrien's did where they look poised to miss the playoffs and everything about the team is depressing that is when you explore a coaching change. You don't panic after a 2-2 start when you've consistently been one of the league's best regular season teams year in and year out.

I'm not sure exactly what it would take for me to want Bylsma fired in terms of good regular seasons followed up by poor postseason performances. Another early exit or two where the entire team falls apart like it did against Philly would get me thinking. I don't consider barely losing with an injury riddled team against a healthy EC contender or losing in 7 games to a goalie who activated god mode before the series to be examples of Bylsma being outcoached. 'Specially not when our playoff hero of a goaltender was handedly outplayed on each occasion.

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01-27-2013, 01:41 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
In what way was Bylsma outcoached last night? People say this every time we lose a game and it's lost all meaning to me. One of their goals was from Cooke making an uncharacteristic turnover, another was after an idiotic penalty by Malkin that led to a seeing eye goal from the blueline by Byfuglien. If you want to talk about scoring chances that didn't lead to goals, we had more of those.
When the other team is hitting your line with speed and every one of your players has no real play in the neutral zone when they have the puck, the coach is either being outcoached or ignored. When your defensmen are scrambling back into position every play because of an unexpected transition, which happened, what, 20 times against Winnipeg? 30? It's a systemic problem.

Even if Malkin had buried both his chances in the first and the Penguins won this game, but it otherwise carried out the exact same way, the same questions would need to be asked.

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01-27-2013, 02:03 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I'm sure the same logic would have been used in favor of canning Julien after his team had the biggest collapse in NHL history.
Its not as if the Stanley Cup disputing teams have not been led by recently hired coaches in latter years. Bylsma was an example. Laviolette took over the Flyers and got them to the dance the year after. Last year Peter Deboer got New Jersey there in his first season, and of course the cup was won by the Kings where Sutter turned around a team Bylsma style.

So this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Coaches being hired to fired is a cliche, one that holds true within certain organizations (perenniel losers, typically) more than it being an unwritten rule in the sports world.
... is not really a strong argument for the time being.
The coaches of Detroit, Chicago, Vancouver and Boston (could add San Jose) but largely they have also looked too good in most regular seasons to be canned or - the few times they didn't - had injury related excuses like Bylsma did in the season we lost to Tampa (where I don't think anyone had anything but minor issues, and certainly realized that he should be judged with a full team at least).

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If you have a good coach, it's usually a good idea to hang on to him instead of looking to dismiss him every time you hit a rough patch.
... and Therrien was/is a good coach in his way. Just not the right one for the team anymore. Most if not all the coaches we are talking about here are good coaches.

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Especially a younger coach like Bylsma who could be one of the premiere coaches in the league for the next few decades.
Or merely in charge of one of the premiere teams.... you can't say that is not a possibility here. We've had nothing but defensive ineptness in the postseason ever since we won the cup. Even the series we did win against Ottawa (an injured and non-competitive version) we struggled with. Having Sid and Malkin lead all active players in PPG masks a lot of problems.

As an aside, I rate Tippett as one of the best coaches in the league, but I don't think he would be at all right for the Pens. This just to say that fits and tendencies are obviously very important. Bylsma came in and rode Therrien's defensive system while making us more aggressive and setting our offense free (well, that's the generally accepted theory at least), but IMO the solidity that was there has since gone, and no functional structure suitable to our key players have been put in its place. Worst of all - our most blatant weaknesses seem not to be corrected at all (Shero has blame here also), and the only ones who pay the price for mistakes are tangential/young assets.

Jiggy correctly mentioned a few pages ago, that Sid and Geno are among the worst of our players when it comes to freelancing a breaking from the schemes we are supposed to stick to. But what does that say, that our super stars (hardly prima donnas or alien to putting in the required work) believe in what is being preached so little, and have so little faith in their line mates, that they stray as much as they do? It is not as if their individual gifts (and freelancing) are not front and center reasons to when we are being successful either. When it works we call it genius and all is well, when it doesn't we call the resulting mistakes brainfarts. I am not excusing them, but if Sid and Malkin don't buy what is being preached on the ice then whichever Penguins coach is dead man walking, or should be.

There is little mystery that guys like Dupuis, Kunitz and Cooke are generally excelling with the Pens, because their style of play matches what our coach wants. Simple up and down game where work rate and attention to detail is top of the agenda. Then when even these guys (admittedly not Dupuis who has been spendid for what he is for more than a year) stray and **** up consistently, with no repercussions, then you have a problem.

On something tangentially related.... When people say that Sid and Malkin have had their best years under Bylsma.... well, they have been playing for him since they were 21 and 22 respectively. What gives? Does anyone really think that their exploits have been due to Bylsma putting them in a particularly positive position to succeed? With the little I saw of Malkin at Magnitogorsk this season, you sure could argue that he was more dominant there (with quite a few good players in that league), but that is hardly apples to apples of course.

Anyway, it isn't lost on me that a 2-2-0 start is not something that should cause a meltdown or a coach firing. But grievances have been adding up and there are no longer any excuses. Montreal could have been a cup-hangover. Tampa.... the loss there was no problem to me because of who we were missing, but the way we lost was troublesome. Then Philly..... that was a debacle, and after all the words from the coaching staff and players of having analyzed the problems of that series... to see exactly the same issues at the start of this season.... and see no evolution in how we play whatsoever, and see no accountability for vets, and see the same patterns of starting well only to unravel in games, with Bylsma seemingly incapable of changing anything on the fly, to the point that even minor things like time outs become a recurring joke with him.... then it is hardly weird that many of us are losing hope. I don't say faith, because I haven't had faith in Bylsma being the right guy for this team for a long time.

That he will have a long and largely successful coaching career in the NHL.... that I don't doubt.

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01-27-2013, 02:31 AM
  #237
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I'm just curious as to which coach in the League holds any of his vets accountable.

I honestly want to hear which vet on this team should sit for hot prospect Eric Tangradi or anyone of his ilk.

Man, I should really start using picture in picture, because I must not be watching enough games if I'm not noticing how vets league wide are being sat down for prospects that do **** all with the time they're given.

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01-27-2013, 03:47 AM
  #238
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Yeah, you nailed that MtlPF. That is all there is to anyone's argument .
Vets being sat or not/Tangradi. And there is no difference between being sat/scratched and simply diminishing ice-time. None.

/sarcasm

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01-27-2013, 05:09 AM
  #239
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Its not as if the Stanley Cup disputing teams have not been led by recently hired coaches in latter years. Bylsma was an example. Laviolette took over the Flyers and got them to the dance the year after. Last year Peter Deboer got New Jersey there in his first season, and of course the cup was won by the Kings where Sutter turned around a team Bylsma style.
My point was not that you should never fire your coach even when his team is doing poorly. I'm saying that Bylsma isn't even close to being at the stage Therrien, Stevens, Murray, and MacLean were at with their teams at the time they were fired. If he gets there, then we can entertain the thought of a coaching change. Successful, recent championship winning franchises give their coach a hell of a lot more rope than fans here are, where after an early exit and a 2-2 start to the season people are already calling for him to be fired.

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So this:

... is not really a strong argument for the time being.
I'll concede that it's not just a loser organization mentality, though they do to tend to be the worst offenders. Lots of teams have fired their coaches over the last few years. I would argue that most have done so unsuccessfully, with a few that have panned out nicely. YMMV, I suppose. What I do know is that coaches with a track record of regular season success with that particular team don't get fired easily, which is why guys like Babcock, Julien, McLellan, Vigneault, Quenneville, Trotz, etc. have held onto their jobs for a while now. When those guys start getting canned after playoff disappointments then you can tell me that Bylsma's job ought to be on the line. Teams simply don't do that, and for good reason.

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... and Therrien was/is a good coach in his way. Just not the right one for the team anymore. Most if not all the coaches we are talking about here are good coaches.
MT was very efficient with the PP but his system was terrible at even strength. You need to be a good 5 on 5 team to be consistently good in this league, and MT never figured that aspect of the game out. I don't think he's a great coach.

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Or merely in charge of one of the premiere teams.... you can't say that is not a possibility here. We've had nothing but defensive ineptness in the postseason ever since we won the cup. Even the series we did win against Ottawa (an injured and non-competitive version) we struggled with. Having Sid and Malkin lead all active players in PPG masks a lot of problems.
It's hard to accept that Bylsma is just a recipient of a talented roster considering his success rallying around injuries. I'll grant that the defense hasn't been up to snuff over the past few years, but I'd argue that historically bad goaltending like we saw against Philly and Montreal has been an even bigger culprit in our demise.

Quote:
As an aside, I rate Tippett as one of the best coaches in the league, but I don't think he would be at all right for the Pens. This just to say that fits and tendencies are obviously very important. Bylsma came in and rode Therrien's defensive system while making us more aggressive and setting our offense free (well, that's the generally accepted theory at least), but IMO the solidity that was there has since gone, and no functional structure suitable to our key players have been put in its place. Worst of all - our most blatant weaknesses seem not to be corrected at all (Shero has blame here also), and the only ones who pay the price for mistakes are tangential/young assets.
Therrien's system was pretty much the polar opposite of what we saw out of the team when Bylsma took over. Instead of being a trapping team that sits back and looks to pounce on turnovers and counter-attack we were getting pucks deep, forechecking, and throwing everything at the net. It was a complete 180 in just about every facet of our game. I have no idea where people get this idea that what we were running in the playoffs was Therrien's system. It's completely obvious from watching the games that this was not the case, but I suppose it fits the narrative that Bylsma was in the right place at the right time and shouldn't recieve full credit for leading us to a Cup.

Quote:
Jiggy correctly mentioned a few pages ago, that Sid and Geno are among the worst of our players when it comes to freelancing a breaking from the schemes we are supposed to stick to. But what does that say, that our super stars (hardly prima donnas or alien to putting in the required work) believe in what is being preached so little, and have so little faith in their line mates, that they stray as much as they do? It is not as if their individual gifts (and freelancing) are not front and center reasons to when we are being successful either. When it works we call it genius and all is well, when it doesn't we call the resulting mistakes brainfarts. I am not excusing them, but if Sid and Malkin don't buy what is being preached on the ice then whichever Penguins coach is dead man walking, or should be.
What exactly consitutes a breaking from the scheme? There is so much baseless speculation going on that it's hard to even reply to something like that. Ill timed turnovers happen with every superstar, that's not an indication of them rebelling from the system but trying to push the limits of their capabilities. It's what made them superstars to begin with. You can overanalyze it if you'd like, but the end result on the stat sheet speaks volumes. It's not a big deal, nor is it damning of Bylsma in any way.

Quote:
There is little mystery that guys like Dupuis, Kunitz and Cooke are generally excelling with the Pens, because their style of play matches what our coach wants. Simple up and down game where work rate and attention to detail is top of the agenda. Then when even these guys (admittedly not Dupuis who has been spendid for what he is for more than a year) stray and **** up consistently, with no repercussions, then you have a problem.
Short of benching players for making mistakes, I don't know exactly what you want Bylsma to do. Even then, who are you putting in instead? We're not exactly loaded with options, and a shortened season doesn't seem like the best time to play good cop bad cop.

Quote:
On something tangentially related.... When people say that Sid and Malkin have had their best years under Bylsma.... well, they have been playing for him since they were 21 and 22 respectively. What gives? Does anyone really think that their exploits have been due to Bylsma putting them in a particularly positive position to succeed? With the little I saw of Malkin at Magnitogorsk this season, you sure could argue that he was more dominant there (with quite a few good players in that league), but that is hardly apples to apples of course.
I don't know whether it's something Bylsma does in particular that allows them to succeed, I just find the arguments that those two aren't a fit with Bylsma's system to be drivel. It's not a matter of just looking at either of their young careers and saying, 'well, he's hitting his prime, he was bound to get better!'. It's the fact that those two have put up two of the most impressive stretches any offensive player has had in decades in an era where scoring has gotten increasingly more difficult because of the lack of powerplays. It runs directly contrary to the narrative that Bylsma's system is stifling their offensive production. People were especially buying into that theory with Malkin when the reality was that he was just playing poor hockey by his own admission and didn't have any decent linemates. Once he dedicated himself in the offseason and began playing alongside Neal who fit him like a glove he was every bit as good as he ever was if not better.

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Anyway, it isn't lost on me that a 2-2-0 start is not something that should cause a meltdown or a coach firing. But grievances have been adding up and there are no longer any excuses. Montreal could have been a cup-hangover. Tampa.... the loss there was no problem to me because of who we were missing, but the way we lost was troublesome. Then Philly..... that was a debacle, and after all the words from the coaching staff and players of having analyzed the problems of that series... to see exactly the same issues at the start of this season.... and see no evolution in how we play whatsoever, and see no accountability for vets, and see the same patterns of starting well only to unravel in games, with Bylsma seemingly incapable of changing anything on the fly, to the point that even minor things like time outs become a recurring joke with him.... then it is hardly weird that many of us are losing hope. I don't say faith, because I haven't had faith in Bylsma being the right guy for this team for a long time.
I don't know why you would expect the team to have worked out all of the kinks without a real offseason and training camp to go through that process, and it seems pretty early in the season to judge whether or not the team has exercised it's demons from last year. If you recall, a horrendous PK was among the main reasons why we lost last year. So far it's been much better. I'd say that's a significant step in the right direction in terms of addressing what led to our early exit, wouldn't you?

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01-27-2013, 05:11 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
When the other team is hitting your line with speed and every one of your players has no real play in the neutral zone when they have the puck, the coach is either being outcoached or ignored. When your defensmen are scrambling back into position every play because of an unexpected transition, which happened, what, 20 times against Winnipeg? 30? It's a systemic problem.
Stretches like that happen with every single team. It's not a reason to start questioning the system or the coach unless it becomes a recurring issue. Last year we absolutely dismantled Winnipeg on a couple of occasions to the point where they couldn't even get the puck out of their zone at times. Does Bylsma get any credit there? People only talk about who won the coaching battle when we lose and never when we win.

Also, let's not forget that Winnipeg is an excellent home team for whatever reason. It's a very difficult place to win.

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01-27-2013, 06:57 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I don't know why you would expect the team to have worked out all of the kinks without a real offseason and training camp to go through that process, and it seems pretty early in the season to judge whether or not the team has exercised it's demons from last year. If you recall, a horrendous PK was among the main reasons why we lost last year. So far it's been much better. I'd say that's a significant step in the right direction in terms of addressing what led to our early exit, wouldn't you?
This is very true and the Pens always seem to slump before hitting their stride.

The thing is that some of us have been seeing holes in Disco's system for the past few years. To be honest its been since Tony G came. Its the same things over and over again. It used to get picked apart by Hitch, Lavs and Lemaire but now its getting picked apart by Claude Noel. Full respect to Noel when I say that but he's not Hitch or Lemaire.

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01-27-2013, 10:00 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I'm just curious as to which coach in the League holds any of his vets accountable.

I honestly want to hear which vet on this team should sit for hot prospect Eric Tangradi or anyone of his ilk.

Man, I should really start using picture in picture, because I must not be watching enough games if I'm not noticing how vets league wide are being sat down for prospects that do **** all with the time they're given.
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Yeah, you nailed that MtlPF. That is all there is to anyone's argument .
Vets being sat or not/Tangradi. And there is no difference between being sat/scratched and simply diminishing ice-time. None.

/sarcasm
C'mon now you two, sarcasm is fine, but ignoring the issue isn't. I'm fine with DB working out the kinks in his new breakout and trying to shuffle lines early, but not holding vets accountable is a huge coaching gaffe he needs to fix.

I can point to multiple mistakes Kunitz has made in all four games, that should not be happening. He has not missed a regular shift or been held accountable.

A message could have been sent by giving Vitale a few shifts in his place.

Engo played like garbage agt. Toronto and Despres played his first steady game, yet who gets benched? Then Engo comes out and plays another god awful, ****** game.

Cooke had four atrocious turnovers by the middle of the second period and never sat once.

I get treating your stars differently, (although AO getting benched was nice to see), but please tell me how DB is going to get his message across when the only players he holds accountable are young players?

No system will work when your vets are making the same mistakes every game. It should not be happening. Any excuses people want to make for DB being timid about disciplining his vets are just that - excuses.

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01-27-2013, 10:09 AM
  #243
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1 for 35 on the power play against Tampa in the playoffs was it for me. that folks is bad coaching and not just some hot goaltender or one game that went south. I will admit the Pens didn't have the horses to go further, but that is a telling indicator of a head coach who was incapable of adjustments over a seven game series. Same last year for the Flyers. The Devils took control of the series and shut down the high flying flyers. That series was again an indication that Bylsma is just in over his head. Some people just are not big time enough. Nice guy, wrong organization. Go get someone who is not an organization man. A coach who will tell Shero your job is to get me good players period. Or tell Malkin if you really want to be the best, grow the fu** up. Babcock is a ***** sometimes, but successful coaches are.

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01-27-2013, 11:11 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Its not as if the Stanley Cup disputing teams have not been led by recently hired coaches in latter years. Bylsma was an example. Laviolette took over the Flyers and got them to the dance the year after. Last year Peter Deboer got New Jersey there in his first season, and of course the cup was won by the Kings where Sutter turned around a team Bylsma style.

So this:



... is not really a strong argument for the time being.
The coaches of Detroit, Chicago, Vancouver and Boston (could add San Jose) but largely they have also looked too good in most regular seasons to be canned or - the few times they didn't - had injury related excuses like Bylsma did in the season we lost to Tampa (where I don't think anyone had anything but minor issues, and certainly realized that he should be judged with a full team at least).



... and Therrien was/is a good coach in his way. Just not the right one for the team anymore. Most if not all the coaches we are talking about here are good coaches.



Or merely in charge of one of the premiere teams.... you can't say that is not a possibility here. We've had nothing but defensive ineptness in the postseason ever since we won the cup. Even the series we did win against Ottawa (an injured and non-competitive version) we struggled with. Having Sid and Malkin lead all active players in PPG masks a lot of problems.

As an aside, I rate Tippett as one of the best coaches in the league, but I don't think he would be at all right for the Pens. This just to say that fits and tendencies are obviously very important. Bylsma came in and rode Therrien's defensive system while making us more aggressive and setting our offense free (well, that's the generally accepted theory at least), but IMO the solidity that was there has since gone, and no functional structure suitable to our key players have been put in its place. Worst of all - our most blatant weaknesses seem not to be corrected at all (Shero has blame here also), and the only ones who pay the price for mistakes are tangential/young assets.

Jiggy correctly mentioned a few pages ago, that Sid and Geno are among the worst of our players when it comes to freelancing a breaking from the schemes we are supposed to stick to. But what does that say, that our super stars (hardly prima donnas or alien to putting in the required work) believe in what is being preached so little, and have so little faith in their line mates, that they stray as much as they do? It is not as if their individual gifts (and freelancing) are not front and center reasons to when we are being successful either. When it works we call it genius and all is well, when it doesn't we call the resulting mistakes brainfarts. I am not excusing them, but if Sid and Malkin don't buy what is being preached on the ice then whichever Penguins coach is dead man walking, or should be.

There is little mystery that guys like Dupuis, Kunitz and Cooke are generally excelling with the Pens, because their style of play matches what our coach wants. Simple up and down game where work rate and attention to detail is top of the agenda. Then when even these guys (admittedly not Dupuis who has been spendid for what he is for more than a year) stray and **** up consistently, with no repercussions, then you have a problem.

On something tangentially related.... When people say that Sid and Malkin have had their best years under Bylsma.... well, they have been playing for him since they were 21 and 22 respectively. What gives? Does anyone really think that their exploits have been due to Bylsma putting them in a particularly positive position to succeed? With the little I saw of Malkin at Magnitogorsk this season, you sure could argue that he was more dominant there (with quite a few good players in that league), but that is hardly apples to apples of course.

Anyway, it isn't lost on me that a 2-2-0 start is not something that should cause a meltdown or a coach firing. But grievances have been adding up and there are no longer any excuses. Montreal could have been a cup-hangover. Tampa.... the loss there was no problem to me because of who we were missing, but the way we lost was troublesome. Then Philly..... that was a debacle, and after all the words from the coaching staff and players of having analyzed the problems of that series... to see exactly the same issues at the start of this season.... and see no evolution in how we play whatsoever, and see no accountability for vets, and see the same patterns of starting well only to unravel in games, with Bylsma seemingly incapable of changing anything on the fly, to the point that even minor things like time outs become a recurring joke with him.... then it is hardly weird that many of us are losing hope. I don't say faith, because I haven't had faith in Bylsma being the right guy for this team for a long time.

That he will have a long and largely successful coaching career in the NHL.... that I don't doubt.
Great stuff throughout TR, but the bolded parts are what's really disconcerting to me. Sid and Geno aren't the types who don't care or will publicly question anything IMO. But, where you're going to see if they're not 'buying it' is on the ice.

I don't think it's intentional or based on some dislike of Bylsma. Rather-- and this is a question I asked last night-- I think it's a case of your two stars seeing that the program isn't working and trying to figure out how to work outside of it a little. And, once you do that, the spiral begins. Trying to help, you make a bad situation worse, try to do more to compensate, and make it worse still.

Anyone who REALLY thinks about late November 2008 until Therrien's firing in 2009 could see this 'evolution' in Sid's and Geno's games until, at the end, they were right at the forefront of people at a loss for how a team in the finals six months before could be a rudderless ship.

**** like this happens, to any type of coach and to even the best of coaches. Sometimes, a coach really can correct it and stop the slide, but it's incredibly hard.

IMO, the spiral started about 2-3 games after Sid came back and really became obvious the last 2 weeks or so of the season through the debacle against Philly.

So, you watch the Flyers game, especially the first, and see some encouraging adjustments in how the Pens approached the game. Even as the Flyers fought back, everyone on the Pens was buying in. Next game, New York, the onslaught continued for two periods.

Then it changed the second the Pens went up 5-1 in New York. The rest of that game and the next two, what had looked like it could be a great course correction by DB began instead to look like a brief respite.

Make no mistake: This isn't a 4 game phenomenon. It's a 25-30 game phenomenon. Bylsma's saving grace is that it was interrupted by the end of a season.

EDIT: TR, a few people have asked and you spoke of the need for the right coach. With full recognition that it's not happening tomorrow or most likely not until the end of the season at earliest, who's the right coach or right type of coach in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
C'mon now you two, sarcasm is fine, but ignoring the issue isn't. I'm fine with DB working out the kinks in his new breakout and trying to shuffle lines early, but not holding vets accountable is a huge coaching gaffe he needs to fix.

I can point to multiple mistakes Kunitz has made in all four games, that should not be happening. He has not missed a regular shift or been held accountable.

A message could have been sent by giving Vitale a few shifts in his place.

Engo played like garbage agt. Toronto and Despres played his first steady game, yet who gets benched? Then Engo comes out and plays another god awful, ****** game.

Cooke had four atrocious turnovers by the middle of the second period and never sat once.

I get treating your stars differently, (although AO getting benched was nice to see), but please tell me how DB is going to get his message across when the only players he holds accountable are young players?

No system will work when your vets are making the same mistakes every game. It should not be happening. Any excuses people want to make for DB being timid about disciplining his vets are just that - excuses.
Despres and Engo is the perfect example as you said, and great call on Vitale. Think about the difference between how Bylsma uses a spark plug with some upside like that and how Therrien used to use Talbot. Eh, I'd love to see Bylsma suddenly become the coach that holds everyone accountable. ****, Maurice benched Malkin in Russia for the third period of a close game because he didn't like how he was playing defense, and that sure as **** had to be 100 times harder for a guy like Maurice to do in Russia than it EVER would be for Bylsma in Pittsburgh (although, there's a subtle difference in that Maurice actually expected and relied on Malkin to play defense, but I digress).


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01-27-2013, 12:12 PM
  #245
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Despres and Engo is the perfect example as you said, and great call on Vitale. Think about the difference between how Bylsma uses a spark plug with some upside like that and how Therrien used to use Talbot. Eh, I'd love to see Bylsma suddenly become the coach that holds everyone accountable. ****, Maurice benched Malkin in Russia for the third period of a close game because he didn't like how he was playing defense, and that sure as **** had to be 100 times harder for a guy like Maurice to do in Russia than it EVER would be for Bylsma in Pittsburgh (although, there's a subtle difference in that Maurice actually expected and relied on Malkin to play defense, but I digress).
I've seen tons of in-game benchings for vets over the years in this league. So hopefully no one in this thread is suggesting it doesn't happen because that is just ridiculous.

I can almost guarantee you that if Cooke had that many mistakes playing in one and half periods playing for the Blues, he would of been at the far end of the bench for the rest of the second period. Twice in the first period alone Cooke was skating towards his zone with the puck and blindly threw it to the middle, with no Jet even pressuring him. He had his back to the perceived pressure, and still threw it to the middle... That is as bad as Kunitz trying to regroup in his own zone by heading to the middle of the ice on his backhand.

These are mental mistakes that are not being forced and players who are multiple offenders (Cooke, Kunitz, Engo) have to be held accountable. A coach like Hitch is hard on young guys and has his own faults, but he makes his vets accountable as well.

There is no reason Sutter couldn't take a couple of shifts from Kunitz and Vitale for Cooke, etc. etc.

This way you reward guys who are playing the system with more ice time and send a message to your vets that mental mistakes and lack of discipline, see retaliatory penalties, won't be tolerated. We saw this garbage last year and it's time DB puts his foot down before these bad habits work their way back in.

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01-27-2013, 12:18 PM
  #246
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Or merely in charge of one of the premiere teams.... you can't say that is not a possibility here. We've had nothing but defensive ineptness in the postseason ever since we won the cup. Even the series we did win against Ottawa (an injured and non-competitive version) we struggled with. Having Sid and Malkin lead all active players in PPG masks a lot of problems.
TR...Fleury's GAA the past 3 playoffs has been 3.02, and his SV% has been .879. If you ask me, the fact that we have consistently had one of the worst starting goalies the last 3 post-seasons is a much bigger factor than any defensive issue. I'd suggest that our playoff defense has actually been pretty solid outside of the Philly series.

We've kept the shots against Fleury down - often to absurdly low levels - yet he always manages to get outplayed by the other guy. Difficult for any coach to win with his goalie playing like that.

Quote:
Jiggy correctly mentioned a few pages ago, that Sid and Geno are among the worst of our players when it comes to freelancing a breaking from the schemes we are supposed to stick to. But what does that say, that our super stars (hardly prima donnas or alien to putting in the required work) believe in what is being preached so little, and have so little faith in their line mates, that they stray as much as they do? It is not as if their individual gifts (and freelancing) are not front and center reasons to when we are being successful either. When it works we call it genius and all is well, when it doesn't we call the resulting mistakes brainfarts. I am not excusing them, but if Sid and Malkin don't buy what is being preached on the ice then whichever Penguins coach is dead man walking, or should be.
They have not been managing the puck well lately...last year down the stretch when the team got overconfident in their ability to win by offense alone and so far in this 4 game season. That's about it.

I wouldn't read anything like "Sid and Geno have gone rogue!" out of that, which would be pretty sensationalist.

Quote:
On something tangentially related.... When people say that Sid and Malkin have had their best years under Bylsma.... well, they have been playing for him since they were 21 and 22 respectively. What gives? Does anyone really think that their exploits have been due to Bylsma putting them in a particularly positive position to succeed? With the little I saw of Malkin at Magnitogorsk this season, you sure could argue that he was more dominant there (with quite a few good players in that league), but that is hardly apples to apples of course.
It obviously hasn't hurt them, if that was the implication.

Quote:
Tampa.... the loss there was no problem to me because of who we were missing, but the way we lost was troublesome.
Fleury playing like trash the last 3 games?

Quote:
Then Philly..... that was a debacle, and after all the words from the coaching staff and players of having analyzed the problems of that series... to see exactly the same issues at the start of this season.... and see no evolution in how we play whatsoever, and see no accountability for vets, and see the same patterns of starting well only to unravel in games, with Bylsma seemingly incapable of changing anything on the fly, to the point that even minor things like time outs become a recurring joke with him.... then it is hardly weird that many of us are losing hope. I don't say faith, because I haven't had faith in Bylsma being the right guy for this team for a long time.
I think the fanbase is hypersensitive after the loss to Philly.

Yes, it was a trainwreck. No, 4 games into a season like this one is not the time to start looking for parallels.

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01-27-2013, 12:23 PM
  #247
Florentino Ariza
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The main reason we lost to the Flyers was that the Flyers outplayed us at first and then the Penguins got caught up in their own emotions, which made them act like babies and take stupid, counterproductive penalties.

It's not about coming up with excuses for our playoff losses...there are real factors that determined why we lost when we lost. We lost to Montreal for the same reason Washington did, Halak and opportunistic goals by Montreal. We lost to Tampa Bay because we didn't have any offense. We lost to the Flyers because I actually believe they were the superior team and also because our "stars" played like selfish toddlers, that includes Crosby and Letang. In other words, you can easily point to specific reasons why we lost and they are perfectly acceptable. What do you people want, to win the Stanley Cup every year or to get to the conference final every year? What is the acceptable threshold that Bylsma has to cross in the playoffs to not be criticized, and do you believe that in any of the series of the past few years that any other factors have been more important in determining our losses than coaching ?

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01-27-2013, 01:05 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I've seen tons of in-game benchings for vets over the years in this league. So hopefully no one in this thread is suggesting it doesn't happen because that is just ridiculous.

I can almost guarantee you that if Cooke had that many mistakes playing in one and half periods playing for the Blues, he would of been at the far end of the bench for the rest of the second period. Twice in the first period alone Cooke was skating towards his zone with the puck and blindly threw it to the middle, with no Jet even pressuring him. He had his back to the perceived pressure, and still threw it to the middle... That is as bad as Kunitz trying to regroup in his own zone by heading to the middle of the ice on his backhand.

These are mental mistakes that are not being forced and players who are multiple offenders (Cooke, Kunitz, Engo) have to be held accountable. A coach like Hitch is hard on young guys and has his own faults, but he makes his vets accountable as well.

There is no reason Sutter couldn't take a couple of shifts from Kunitz and Vitale for Cooke, etc. etc.

This way you reward guys who are playing the system with more ice time and send a message to your vets that mental mistakes and lack of discipline, see retaliatory penalties, won't be tolerated. We saw this garbage last year and it's time DB puts his foot down before these bad habits work their way back in.
Couldn't agree more.

And, frankly, I'd add Malkin to that list. Then again, I've always been of the opinion that he needs to be defensively responsible first and his entire game flows from that. Bylsma, IMO, thinks his usefulness begins and ends with scoring goals. It's why he plays less when the Pens are winning a game and why he plays more when they're behind, even if he played a hand in that.

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01-27-2013, 01:08 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
The main reason we lost to the Flyers was that the Flyers outplayed us at first and then the Penguins got caught up in their own emotions, which made them act like babies and take stupid, counterproductive penalties.

It's not about coming up with excuses for our playoff losses...there are real factors that determined why we lost when we lost. We lost to Montreal for the same reason Washington did, Halak and opportunistic goals by Montreal. We lost to Tampa Bay because we didn't have any offense. We lost to the Flyers because I actually believe they were the superior team and also because our "stars" played like selfish toddlers, that includes Crosby and Letang. In other words, you can easily point to specific reasons why we lost and they are perfectly acceptable. What do you people want, to win the Stanley Cup every year or to get to the conference final every year? What is the acceptable threshold that Bylsma has to cross in the playoffs to not be criticized, and do you believe that in any of the series of the past few years that any other factors have been more important in determining our losses than coaching ?
If I'm reading this right, then what Bylsma does as a coach doesn't matter at all. Win or lose, it's ALL on the players.

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01-27-2013, 01:16 PM
  #250
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TR...Fleury's GAA the past 3 playoffs has been 3.02, and his SV% has been .879. If you ask me, the fact that we have consistently had one of the worst starting goalies the last 3 post-seasons is a much bigger factor than any defensive issue. I'd suggest that our playoff defense has actually been pretty solid outside of the Philly series.

We've kept the shots against Fleury down - often to absurdly low levels - yet he always manages to get outplayed by the other guy. Difficult for any coach to win with his goalie playing like that.



They have not been managing the puck well lately...last year down the stretch when the team got overconfident in their ability to win by offense alone and so far in this 4 game season. That's about it.

I wouldn't read anything like "Sid and Geno have gone rogue!" out of that, which would be pretty sensationalist.



It obviously hasn't hurt them, if that was the implication.



Fleury playing like trash the last 3 games?



I think the fanbase is hypersensitive after the loss to Philly.

Yes, it was a trainwreck. No, 4 games into a season like this one is not the time to start looking for parallels.
Again, Roddy, if it were JUST 4 games or JUST 4 games and the loss to Philly, then I don't think the reaction would be what it is. But, this is 25 or so games and a lot of the the factors date back well before that.

BTW, Sid and Geno haven't gone rogue in a sensationalist way, but they've definitely been playing outside the system. Either they don't want to listen OR they're absent-minded OR they're trying to overcompensate for the competitive disadvantage at which they feel placed by the coaching staff.

I've seen this play before with Therrien. There's no nefarious reason for it. Team is winning in spite of the bad trends (like late November 2008 and like last year leading into the playoffs), and some people (like me) sound alarm bells while others say 'we're still winning' and 'he got us to the finals just a few months ago'.

Thing is, either a coach nips it in the rear or risks losing the team. Therrien didn't nip it in the rear. Bylsma, as evidenced the last few games last season, against Philly, and then with the 2-2 record, clearly hasn't either.

I hope he's got an ace up his sleeve. I'll be happy to embrace any positive sign today, starting with his lineup card. Strike that, I'll have to see if there's any game planning and adjustments.

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