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P.K. Subban Thread IX: 'Try to make this one last longer than a day' Edition

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01-27-2013, 08:26 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Bad cap management is signing players long-term to huge contracts when you have little cap space. AKA Bryzgalov, Gomez... Prust at 2.5 is easy to manage. He can be traded no problem. It's not a huge liability. Signing Subban to a long-term 5ish contract would put us against the cap this year and we'll be very very thing next year. The PK deal is all about cap management over the next two years which will be very tight.
I've mentioned this before, but the next two years is NOT the problem. Yes, we're tight, but the only new contracts during that time will be Desharnais plus ELCs for Galchenyuk, Gallagher and possibly Tinordi. We won't re-sign Bouillon, we have another buyout if necessary, which means the Habs are okay until the end of 2014. Lowballing Subban is NOT necessary.

But what happens after that? The approx $2M we save on this 'bridge' contract will vanish once we have to open the bank for PK in two years. The future PK will have two more years of experience, the league salaries will be two years higher, and the market value for him will have risen to close to $7M per season long term.

If we want to lock up Subban long-term, we can choose which Subban we want to pay. The present PK at approx $4.5 - $5M per is more affordable than the future PK two years from now, who will cost us about $2M more of cap space each season. IMO, it makes sense to pay the present PK.

Yes, of course it's a risk. But most successful teams are willing to invest in their stars. What makes our philosophy better? "It's the way we've always done it" is a terrible answer.

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01-27-2013, 08:27 AM
  #227
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LMAO. Have I watched him play this year? lol. I've watched Prust play for many years. If you're surprised than maybe you should watch more games outside of habs land.

I never said that Price is a problem, only that he's overpaid, a top 3 net minder he's not. He's very good, but paid like he's the best, he isn't.

Subban has proven he is a top 20 dman, he should be paid like one. The other deals MB made involved paying players like Price based on a level he hasn't reached yet, but he's unwilling to pay Subban the money for a level he has already reached. It's ridiculous. Defending him is even more ridiculous.
You were using Price and Prust as an argument for bad cap management. What you are saying now is unrelated. I think Subban has the potential to be a top 20 D man, perhaps even top 10. He has not proven, in my opinion that he's top 20 yet. Top 30-40 for sure but he still needs to grow to be called a genuine top-20.

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01-27-2013, 08:31 AM
  #228
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Current contract is about 800k? So the offer is about a 400% increase? Rough

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01-27-2013, 08:31 AM
  #229
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Right, because signing our homegrown talent to fair contracts has gotten us in the mess we're in rather than trading away young talent for overpaid, underperforming vets and signing UFA's to MASSIVE contracts....hmm?

Patches got a fair deal as did Price. If you think PK should sign a lowball offer then I hope you have no issue with your boss cutting your salary for the betterment of the company.
Yeah because when my boss cuts my salary I get 3-5 times what I presently earn. That is a useless argument. Patches is a great contract. Seems to me he also had a bridge contract, but we can keep going in a circle if you like. Subban would be our second highest after the over payment on price's contract. You were saying about not overpaying on UFAs, I hate that they are overpaying on the guys we develop. Price should have been 5 mill 5.5 tops. I don't worry about cube(1 year) or prust who has already shown his contract may be high but he is worth his value.? Maybe you should worry about the present management moves instead of believing this is Goat or Gainey

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01-27-2013, 08:35 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
You were using Price and Prust as an argument for bad cap management. What you are saying now is unrelated. I think Subban has the potential to be a top 20 D man, perhaps even top 10. He has not proven, in my opinion that he's top 20 yet. Top 30-40 for sure but he still needs to grow to be called a genuine top-20.
I never said that. I was only using those deals as to why the Subban handling doesn't make one bit of sense.

I am fine with both of them, but MB didn't show any great GM skills by signing those contracts. We could have done that.

IMO PK is a top 20-30 dman at 23 years old. Thirty being the low end.

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01-27-2013, 08:36 AM
  #231
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I am wondering what Danny Kristo is thinking about this franchise, having you sign a bridge contract no matter how you perform. We could loose him over this mess.

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01-27-2013, 08:36 AM
  #232
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I've mentioned this before, but the next two years is NOT the problem. Yes, we're tight, but the only new contracts during that time will be Desharnais plus ELCs for Galchenyuk, Gallagher and possibly Tinordi. We won't re-sign Bouillon, we have another buyout if necessary, which means the Habs are okay until the end of 2014. Lowballing Subban is NOT necessary.

But what happens after that? The approx $2M we save on this 'bridge' contract will vanish once we have to open the bank for PK in two years. The future PK will have two more years of experience, the league salaries will be two years higher, and the market value for him will have risen to close to $7M per season long term.

If we want to lock up Subban long-term, we can choose which Subban we want to pay. The present PK at approx $4.5 - $5M per is more affordable than the future PK two years from now, who will cost us about $2M more of cap space each season. IMO, it makes sense to pay the present PK.

Yes, of course it's a risk. But most successful teams are willing to invest in their stars. What makes our philosophy better? "It's the way we've always done it" is a terrible answer.
I agree this is a risk but I think Bergevin is willing to take it. The counter-argument is that if PK does not improve dramatically over the next two years his price tag will not be much higher. I think he will improve but will he improve enough to be worth 7 million, that's the question. I also think Bergevin wants to make sure that the talk about him not being the perfect teammate in not true before signing him long-term. All this is probably way overblown but perhaps there's stuff we don't know.

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01-27-2013, 08:37 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by doc lafleur View Post
I am wondering what Danny Kristo is thinking about this franchise, having you sign a bridge contract no matter how you perform. We could loose him over this mess.
Kristo does not think so much...the guy almost froze his toes off and almost ruined his career


Last edited by onebighockeyfan: 01-27-2013 at 08:37 AM. Reason: added "almost"
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01-27-2013, 08:38 AM
  #234
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Yeah because when my boss cuts my salary I get 3-5 times what I presently earn. That is a useless argument. Patches is a great contract. Seems to me he also had a bridge contract, but we can keep going in a circle if you like. Subban would be our second highest after the over payment on price's contract. You were saying about not overpaying on UFAs, I hate that they are overpaying on the guys we develop. Price should have been 5 mill 5.5 tops. I don't worry about cube(1 year) or prust who has already shown his contract may be high but he is worth his value.? Maybe you should worry about the present management moves instead of believing this is Goat or Gainey

You realize patches had a broken neck right? He is not comparable to PK.

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01-27-2013, 08:38 AM
  #235
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I've mentioned this before, but the next two years is NOT the problem. Yes, we're tight, but the only new contracts during that time will be Desharnais plus ELCs for Galchenyuk, Gallagher and possibly Tinordi. We won't re-sign Bouillon, we have another buyout if necessary, which means the Habs are okay until the end of 2014. Lowballing Subban is NOT necessary.

But what happens after that? The approx $2M we save on this 'bridge' contract will vanish once we have to open the bank for PK in two years. The future PK will have two more years of experience, the league salaries will be two years higher, and the market value for him will have risen to close to $7M per season long term.

If we want to lock up Subban long-term, we can choose which Subban we want to pay. The present PK at approx $4.5 - $5M per is more affordable than the future PK two years from now, who will cost us about $2M more of cap space each season. IMO, it makes sense to pay the present PK.

Yes, of course it's a risk. But most successful teams are willing to invest in their stars. What makes our philosophy better? "It's the way we've always done it" is a terrible answer.
Or perhaps subban want 30 over 5 or wants 10 over 2, how does that get us into any better position. You have no idea if he is asking 4.5 over 2,4,6, 8 or 10 years. And its unlikely he is.

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01-27-2013, 08:40 AM
  #236
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Yeah because when my boss cuts my salary I get 3-5 times what I presently earn. That is a useless argument. Patches is a great contract. Seems to me he also had a bridge contract, but we can keep going in a circle if you like. Subban would be our second highest after the over payment on price's contract. You were saying about not overpaying on UFAs, I hate that they are overpaying on the guys we develop. Price should have been 5 mill 5.5 tops. I don't worry about cube(1 year) or prust who has already shown his contract may be high but he is worth his value.? Maybe you should worry about the present management moves instead of believing this is Goat or Gainey
*sigh*

The bridge contract should not be standard across the board. It's simply stupid. Max and Price needed brdige contracts because they had not proven themselves. Max was coming off a broken neck and a career 49 points. Price lost his job to Halak and had 2 poor years. A bridge was needed. Why is this so difficult for people to understand? If Gally lights it up, you're goign to offer him a bridge and point to Max and Carey who were nowhere near established at that point? Silly!

I have no issue overpaying a bit on YOUNG CORE players that are developed internally over paying 5+M on over the hill UFA's to fill the holes of the young, core players you tossed away in deals for various reasons (attitude problems, piece to acquiring a useless overpaid scrub, etc).

Gainey and Gauthier years are over but I still feel like I'm still in them with stupid "rules" like not negotiating during the season and offering bridge contracts to every single player coming off their ELC.

I'd rather overpay Price than lowball him, piss him off, then have to find an old, UFA goalie for more than that..and tha's if he even wants to play for Montreal.

We got guys that want to play for this team for a long time and we're peddling 2 year lowball contracts...and some fans eat all up...just like how they ate up Gauthier and Gainey's silly moves and ideologies.

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01-27-2013, 08:41 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Or perhaps subban want 30 over 5 or wants 10 over 2, how does that get us into any better position. You have no idea if he is asking 4.5 over 2,4,6, 8 or 10 years. And its unlikely he is.
We're not talking about what Subban wants. We're talking about an insulting low-ball offer that Bergevin has refused to move off of. No negotiations work like that.

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01-27-2013, 08:42 AM
  #238
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I agree this is a risk but I think Bergevin is willing to take it. The counter-argument is that if PK does not improve dramatically over the next two years his price tag will not be much higher. I think he will improve but will he improve enough to be worth 7 million, that's the question. I also think Bergevin wants to make sure that the talk about him not being the perfect teammate in not true before signing him long-term. All this is probably way overblown but perhaps there's stuff we don't know.
If Pk does not improve (doubt it) and puts up 38 points next season...he will get a far better deal. He may not get 7, but he will get north of 5 on a long term deal.

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01-27-2013, 08:43 AM
  #239
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I find it also interesting that could it be that Subban is feeling that after the initial low-ball offering that the owners gave the players before the lockout, if he waits (like the players did) he will get a better offer?

This is to a certain degree a very similar situation to the lockout.

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01-27-2013, 08:43 AM
  #240
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We're not talking about what Subban wants. We're talking about an insulting low-ball offer that Bergevin has refused to move off of. No negotiations work like that.
Negotiations stared with PK saying he will nto be at camp if he had no deal. He was posturing from the start and insisting on a long-term deal, two things management was not keen about. Fault can go both ways.

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01-27-2013, 08:45 AM
  #241
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Negotiations stared with PK saying he will nto be at camp if he had no deal. He was posturing from the start and insisting on a long-term deal, two things management was not keep about. Fault can go both ways.
Players never report to camp without contracts. This situation is not unique to Subban.

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01-27-2013, 08:47 AM
  #242
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Negotiations stared with PK saying he will nto be at camp if he had no deal. He was posturing from the start and insisting on a long-term deal, two things management was not keep about. Fault can go both ways.
Why should he be at camp without a deal?

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01-27-2013, 08:47 AM
  #243
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I never said that. I was only using those deals as to why the Subban handling doesn't make one bit of sense.

I am fine with both of them, but MB didn't show any great GM skills by signing those contracts. We could have done that.

IMO PK is a top 20-30 dman at 23 years old. Thirty being the low end.
That is presomptuous. The task was not "signing these players at these contracts", it was also adopting a strategy to follow regarding the kind of players you wanted on board, and then doing your best to get the best of the kind.

We have a goalie who dominates and just keeps getting better.
We got the best of the 4th liner.
We got a polyvalent physical lower-pairing Defenseman.

The sort of things that, by themselves, aren't incredible. But they are the parts you need to make the whole bigger than the sum.

Last year, we were smaller than the sum of our parts, because we were missing some critical elements.

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01-27-2013, 08:49 AM
  #244
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If Pk does not improve (doubt it) and puts up 38 points next season...he will get a far better deal. He may not get 7, but he will get north of 5 on a long term deal.
That would not be a big difference though. If he signs long-term now it's likely at more than 4 because it will be eating up on his UFA years.

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01-27-2013, 08:49 AM
  #245
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We're not talking about what Subban wants. We're talking about an insulting low-ball offer that Bergevin has refused to move off of. No negotiations work like that.
So you are worked up at the initial offer(likely where the rumour originated), have no idea what meehan presented as his initial, but we are suppose to hate MB for trying to set a standard as he is the GM and all. You have no idea if he tried to move off it or not. All that was leaked was probably an initial offer and NO ONE has said MB hasn't moved at all on the offer.

Why aren't you talking about what subban wants? This is half the question too you know. If subban said he wanted 5.5 short term, or 6.5 long term and he isn't budging isn't that just as bad. Or is that not also part of negotiating.

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01-27-2013, 08:50 AM
  #246
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Why should he be at camp without a deal?
He postured by saying he would not be at camp if he did not have a deal. He should have kept his moth shut.

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01-27-2013, 08:50 AM
  #247
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@GMolsonCHC #signsubban

Have a twitter account? Do it. No excuses.

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01-27-2013, 08:51 AM
  #248
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I agree this is a risk but I think Bergevin is willing to take it. The counter-argument is that if PK does not improve dramatically over the next two years his price tag will not be much higher. I think he will improve but will he improve enough to be worth 7 million, that's the question. I also think Bergevin wants to make sure that the talk about him not being the perfect teammate in not true before signing him long-term. All this is probably way overblown but perhaps there's stuff we don't know.
I'd change "perhaps" to "definitely". Bergevin may have spoken to certain players who've been less than enthusiastic about PK. The Habs may be waiting for another team to offer sheet PK, just so they can match it, shrug their shoulders, and say to his teammates, "Sorry, we didn't want to pay him that much but had no choice".

There's more we DON'T know than DO know about this.


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Or perhaps subban want 30 over 5 or wants 10 over 2, how does that get us into any better position. You have no idea if he is asking 4.5 over 2,4,6, 8 or 10 years. And its unlikely he is.
What I've heard is that the Habs are sticking to a bridge formula and refusing to budge. They have leverage so they're low-balling.

But see my paragraph above. These are pure guesses. We really don't know what's going on. "What I've heard" counts for nothing.

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01-27-2013, 08:52 AM
  #249
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He'll be put in his place.
.. for being uppity.

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01-27-2013, 08:53 AM
  #250
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Players never report to camp without contracts. This situation is not unique to Subban.
I love you guys, Subban can do no wrong. MB should be fired because he's an idiot.

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