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P.K. Subban Thread IX: 'Try to make this one last longer than a day' Edition

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01-27-2013, 09:54 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Mynameismark View Post
Then it wouldnt be because of Prust, it would be because of Kaberle and his contract, to which Bergevin had nothing to do with.
Kaberle is getting bought out this summer, so he's irrelevant except to this year.

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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I love you guys, Subban can do no wrong. MB should be fired because he's an idiot.
Subban can do wrong sure, but he's not doing wrong here because you can't report if you don't have a contract, he's not a member of the organization right now and it would be distracting. Doughty didn't report during his holdout, Stamkos didn't report likewise, Benn and Kulikov only reported after reaching agreements. Last I heard O'Reilly was still in Russia without a contract.

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01-27-2013, 09:55 AM
  #252
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So you are worked up at the initial offer(likely where the rumour originated), have no idea what meehan presented as his initial, but we are suppose to hate MB for trying to set a standard as he is the GM and all. You have no idea if he tried to move off it or not. All that was leaked was probably an initial offer and NO ONE has said MB hasn't moved at all on the offer.Why aren't you talking about what subban wants? This is half the question too you know. If subban said he wanted 5.5 short term, or 6.5 long term and he isn't budging isn't that just as bad. Or is that not also part of negotiating.
Renaud Lavoie tweeted that the Habs havent moved off of their initial offer, which was 2yrs 5.1M, since they first offered it to him last May

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01-27-2013, 09:55 AM
  #253
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I'd change "perhaps" to "definitely". Bergevin may have spoken to certain players who've been less than enthusiastic about PK. The Habs may be waiting for another team to offer sheet PK, just so they can match it, shrug their shoulders, and say to his teammates, "Sorry, we didn't want to pay him that much but had no choice".

There's more we DON'T know than DO know about this.
What players think of him would not hold much stock in my decision. The Habs have gotten nowhere by building a team full of choir boys. PK gets it done on the ice and that's really all I care about. I don't think he's hated at all. I just think some of the older guys think he's immature. Older guys who will not be part of the team in a year or two.

This is kind of why I think he will be traded, though. The team does not think too highly of him and are lowballing him. Something has to give.

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01-27-2013, 09:55 AM
  #254
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Kaberle is getting bought out this summer, so he's irrelevant except to this year.
And they are trying to sign PK this year. The guy was blaming Prust and his contract. Prust deserves it.

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01-27-2013, 09:56 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I love you guys, Subban can do no wrong. MB should be fired because he's an idiot.
Man, something is wrong with you. How can you infer "Subban can do no wrong" form "the majority does the same thing"?

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01-27-2013, 09:57 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I love you guys, Subban can do no wrong. MB should be fired because he's an idiot.
No. You just find any way to discredit him. Why the hell would he show up to camp without a contract? Answer that one for me. Also, you can't fathom why people are upset with Bergevin after hearing the ridiculous lowball offer? Give me a break.

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01-27-2013, 09:57 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Negotiations stared with PK saying he will nto be at camp if he had no deal. He was posturing from the start and insisting on a long-term deal, two things management was not keen about. Fault can go both ways.
PK Can't go to camp if he isn't signed to a contract. That's not posturing that's legal NHL operations 101.

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01-27-2013, 09:57 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I love you guys, Subban can do no wrong. MB should be fired because he's an idiot.
It's true though...who the hell shows up to a training camp without a contract?

I hope you realize that no player in his right mind, and represented by a half decent agent, would show up to camp without a contract

If anything happens to that player injury wise...they're screwed

This particular point is less about 'Subban doing no wrong' and you seeing everything he does as wrong.

Get a grip man

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01-27-2013, 09:57 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Mynameismark View Post
And they are trying to sign PK this year. The guy was blaming Prust and his contract. Prust deserves it.
With Gomez off the book, how the hell do we have no room for PK this year?!

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01-27-2013, 09:58 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post



What I've heard is that the Habs are sticking to a bridge formula and refusing to budge. They have leverage so they're low-balling.

But see my paragraph above. These are pure guesses. We really don't know what's going on. "What I've heard" counts for nothing.
Well the bridge formula could very well be 3.5per for 2 years. Bridge is the shortened contract formula, not how much is paid during it. I think there is flexibility in money offered but not length. Sad part is even when negotiations are over we won't know and can only speculate. Though final signing may show where the two parties stood throughout this

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01-27-2013, 09:59 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Well the bridge formula could very well be 3.5per for 2 years. Bridge is the shortened contract formula, not how much is paid during it. I think there is flexibility in money offered but not length. Sad part is even when negotiations are over we won't know and can only speculate. Though final signing may show where the two parties stood throughout this
A two year contract at 3.5 and 4.25 the second year would be pretty manageable.

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01-27-2013, 10:00 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Renaud Lavoie tweeted that the Habs havent moved off of their initial offer, which was 2yrs 5.1M, since they first offered it to him last May
Well there you go concrete evidence delivered through tweet.

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01-27-2013, 10:00 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
With Gomez off the book, how the hell do we have no room for PK this year?!
Gomez counts on the cap THIS year, the buy out is officially in effect after the season

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01-27-2013, 10:00 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
So you are worked up at the initial offer(likely where the rumour originated), have no idea what meehan presented as his initial, but we are suppose to hate MB for trying to set a standard as he is the GM and all. You have no idea if he tried to move off it or not. All that was leaked was probably an initial offer and NO ONE has said MB hasn't moved at all on the offer.

Why aren't you talking about what subban wants? This is half the question too you know. If subban said he wanted 5.5 short term, or 6.5 long term and he isn't budging isn't that just as bad. Or is that not also part of negotiating.
It's also a tad closer to his real value than 2.2M this season and 2.9M next season, to be completely fair if that is in fact what PK's request is.

If John Carlson gets 4.25M for 6 years, PK Subban deserves at the very least the same contract given he's been every bit as good on a much worse team during that span. IMO he is the most comparable of all the young D in the league vs Subban, because he too was thrust into a #1-2 position very young and responded well and not to mention has a ton of potential to improve still yet.

Factor in Montreal's taxes, and the slight edge PK has, your probably looking at a 6yr deal at 5M being his "true market value" when you look at the closer comparables like Carlson and Fowler.

For christ sakes we had no problem paying Roman Hamrlik 5.5M (in a 50-55M cap world) for 4 years and PK is already a better player than RH ever was for us, and 10 years younger than when RH signed that deal.

Bergevin is low balling a young star player. There is NO OTHER WAY TO LOOK AT THIS.

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01-27-2013, 10:00 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
That is presomptuous. The task was not "signing these players at these contracts", it was also adopting a strategy to follow regarding the kind of players you wanted on board, and then doing your best to get the best of the kind.

We have a goalie who dominates and just keeps getting better.
We got the best of the 4th liner.
We got a polyvalent physical lower-pairing Defenseman.

The sort of things that, by themselves, aren't incredible. But they are the parts you need to make the whole bigger than the sum.

Last year, we were smaller than the sum of our parts, because we were missing some critical elements.
Yawn, it would have taken an idiot to not sign Price. I think the same thing about PK.

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01-27-2013, 10:01 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Well the bridge formula could very well be 3.5per for 2 years. Bridge is the shortened contract formula, not how much is paid during it. I think there is flexibility in money offered but not length. Sad part is even when negotiations are over we won't know and can only speculate. Though final signing may show where the two parties stood throughout this
The Habs didn't offer this according to Renaud Lavoie, who is as plugged in as anyone out there, even more than Mackenzie/Dreger, they offered Subban 2yrs 5.1M

and this offer has not budged since last May...

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01-27-2013, 10:02 AM
  #267
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Well there you go concrete evidence delivered through tweet.
Agreed, it's just a tweet and there's only so much you can take from that...but I tend to put more faith in what Lavoie tweets about the Habs because he's plugged in more than anyone else IMO.

I hope those numbers aren't accurate...I'd like to think they're not at least

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01-27-2013, 10:02 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Mynameismark View Post
And they are trying to sign PK this year. The guy was blaming Prust and his contract. Prust deserves it.
Kaberle's contract shouldn't be a problem though, the cap doesn't go down until next year and by that point both him and Gomez will be history.

And yes, if the reason they are lowballing Subban is because MB believes we don't have enough cap space, it was poor cap management with Prust. Prust is overpaid, even Rangers fans who love the man think he's overpaid and are happy he wasn't brought back for that price. That doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be overpaid, he's a guy who can give you an edge, but he's still a guy who should be part of your plans after your best defenseman.

And it's not just Prust, we committed significant money to grinders and role players even under Bergevin. Which is fine, you need the blue collar types to make everything running, but once again, that's not your core. Subban is your core, and only Price and Galchenyuk should be as important as Subban going forward. Those are the guys we have that nobody else has.

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Gomez counts on the cap THIS year, the buy out is officially in effect after the season
And the cap doesn't go down until next year either.

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01-27-2013, 10:02 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I love you guys, Subban can do no wrong. MB should be fired because he's an idiot.
List all the players who reported to camp during negotiations and I'll list all the players who haven't.

Wanna try?

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01-27-2013, 10:02 AM
  #270
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Man, something is wrong with you. How can you infer "Subban can do no wrong" form "the majority does the same thing"?
huh? What I mean is many on here want MB's head for not signing PK to a long-term contract and insisting on the bridge contract. Fair enough but those same people have to respect managements position that perhaps PK still has a lot to prove both on and off the ice.

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01-27-2013, 10:03 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
A two year contract at 3.5 and 4.25 the second year would be pretty manageable.
And you know what I would be OK with that(even though I am no one) but this is also a far cry from what some have suggested that subban deserves no less than 5 mill short term or 6 mill as a sweet deal to the habs long term.

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01-27-2013, 10:03 AM
  #272
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The Habs didn't offer this according to Renaud Lavoie, who is as plugged in as anyone out there, even more than Mackenzie/Dreger, they offered Subban 2yrs 5.1M

and this offer has not budged since last May...
Exactly. Unacceptable.

A "fair" bridge contract to PK would be around the 3.75-4M mark per year.

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01-27-2013, 10:06 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
List all the players who reported to camp during negotiations and I'll list all the players who haven't.

Wanna try?
Try to understand my post. I said posturing by stating he will not show up to camp. The respectful thing to do is to shut up, work very hard on trying to get a deal done and not show up only if everything fails. Subban has been posturing and has continued to do this with the Stubbs article.

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01-27-2013, 10:07 AM
  #274
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Exactly. Unacceptable.

A "fair" bridge contract to PK would be around the 3.75-4M mark per year.
again though...we don't know for sure if those numbers are accurate. I mean, i'd like to think they're not.

But if that was the initial offer and they haven't budged from it since...is it any wonder why were at a standstill?

If you approach Subban's camp with such an offer...the inevitable reaction is going to be him wanting much more than what he may be worth.

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01-27-2013, 10:08 AM
  #275
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It's also a tad closer to his real value than 2.2M this season and 2.9M next season, to be completely fair if that is in fact what PK's request is.

If John Carlson gets 4.25M for 6 years, PK Subban deserves at the very least the same contract given he's been every bit as good on a much worse team during that span. IMO he is the most comparable of all the young D in the league vs Subban, because he too was thrust into a #1-2 position very young and responded well and not to mention has a ton of potential to improve still yet.

Factor in Montreal's taxes, and the slight edge PK has, your probably looking at a 6yr deal at 5M being his "true market value" when you look at the closer comparables like Carlson and Fowler.

For christ sakes we had no problem paying Roman Hamrlik 5.5M (in a 50-55M cap world) for 4 years and PK is already a better player than RH ever was for us, and 10 years younger than when RH signed that deal.

Bergevin is low balling a young star player. There is NO OTHER WAY TO LOOK AT THIS.
The way you look at it, is young players need to be paid a little less because thats the only way your team can get value. Hammer was paid that for 4 years in his prime on a team that couldn't sign UFAs. Apples and oranges. Its only in the last 3 years that RFA now means huge winfall. If you check hammer pre habs I bet he earned less than 2.5/ in all his rfa years.

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