Yawn, it would have taken an idiot to not sign Price. I think the same thing about PK.
Truly, your argumentative skill have never been equalled. Always surpassed, never equalled.
That's all you gotta answer, "yawn"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan
huh? What I mean is many on here want MB's head for not signing PK to a long-term contract and insisting on the bridge contract. Fair enough but those same people have to respect managements position that perhaps PK still has a lot to prove both on and off the ice.
********. You this is your reply, and the post you quoted:
You were giving flak to Subban for not training with the Habs. Habsfanatic replied to you NOBODY shows up to camp when they aren't signed. And your reply? "Obviously, Subban can do no wrong"
Non-sequitur at best. Intellectual dishonesty at worst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics
Players never report to camp without contracts. This situation is not unique to Subban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan
I love you guys, Subban can do no wrong. MB should be fired because he's an idiot.
Try to understand my post. I said posturing by stating he will not show up to camp. The respectful thing to do is to shut up, work very hard on trying to get a deal done and not show up only if everything fails. Subban has been posturing and has continued to do this with the Stubbs article.
posturing is a part of negotiations...the Habs are posturing themselves.
A "fair" bridge contract to PK would be around the 3.75-4M mark per year.
I agree with this and I think it will get to about that. It is unclear if Subban and and Meehan countered that offer and this was rejected by the Habs. All that was reported is that the offer has not changed since last summer. It could be that Meehan told MB that PK was now willing to consider a 2 year deal and what was his current offer. The obvious response MB could give is that the Habs already made a two-year offer and that's still on the table. Now it's up to PK and his agent to counter. That's how negotiations work.
again though...we don't know for sure if those numbers are accurate. I mean, i'd like to think they're not.
But if that was the initial offer and they haven't budged from it since...is it any wonder why were at a standstill?
If you approach Subban's camp with such an offer...the inevitable reaction is going to be him wanting much more than what he may be worth.
Of course if Subbans initial offer was 6.5 like drew D and they haven't budged either we are still at a standstill. We don't know how much either side has moved or where the initial offers came from. I think MBs initial offer is right where it should have been. Should he move on it, yes. How much is another question. The price patches situations are different, but they are the 'habs' benchmark and that is what they are going with. Probably why Josh said what he said.
Remember who your last crusade was against? How did that turn out?
I'd take a deep breath and let things play out before we crucify anyone. Remember, it's not like PK's in a unique situation. Benn missed some games for the same reason, as well as Ryan O'Reilly.
You're right (I should take a deep breath), but if it's true (2.5 mil/year for 2 years)...I don't want Bergevin as the Habs' GM anymore. I didn't want Therrien back, but...I'm still trying to like Therrien's work ethic (and I do like Bouillon, Prust, Armstrong...more grit/heart for our Habs, imo Therrien helped with those acquisitions).
(just wondering...what was my last crusade? my constant bashing of Markov's injuries? or was it something else? I sincerely forget! no sarcasm).
Benn...O'Reilly...good points, but...this should actually get Subban signed right away (especially the Benn contract).
Truly, your argumentative skill have never been equalled. Always surpassed, never equalled.
That's all you gotta answer, "yawn"?
********. You this is your reply, and the post you quoted:
You were giving flak to Subban for not training with the Habs. Habsfanatic replied to you NOBODY shows up to camp when they aren't signed. And your reply? "Obviously, Subban can do no wrong"
Non-sequitur at best. Intellectual dishonesty at worst.
What I meant to say is that there's a difference with not showing up at camp and telling the media you will not show up at camp. The latter is postering, the former is business. I have no problem with the business end of it.
Remember who your last crusade was against? How did that turn out?
I'd take a deep breath and let things play out before we crucify anyone. Remember, it's not like PK's in a unique situation. Benn missed some games for the same reason, as well as Ryan O'Reilly.
i wouldn't call ranting unintelligibly, bolding random words and tossing a bunch of emoticons a 'crusade'
Of course if Subbans initial offer was 6.5 like drew D and they haven't budged either we are still at a standstill. We don't know how much either side has moved or where the initial offers came from. I think MBs initial offer is right where it should have been. Should he move on it, yes. How much is another question. The price patches situations are different, but they are the 'habs' benchmark and that is what they are going with. Probably why Josh said what he said.
We also don't know if the time he spends with his family this weekend will make him sign the bridge contract with Montreal.
The way you look at it, is young players need to be paid a little less because thats the only way your team can get value. Hammer was paid that for 4 years in his prime on a team that couldn't sign UFAs. Apples and oranges. Its only in the last 3 years that RFA now means huge winfall. If you check hammer pre habs I bet he earned less than 2.5/ in all his rfa years.
Other teams have had no problem giving young stars long-term "pay for potential" contracts. I just listed two in Carlson/Fowler, there is many many others.
Montreal is one of the only teams in the league with a substantial amount of money behind it that doesn't hand out big pay days to it's young core players.
The very least they could do is offer him a 2 yr 8.5M contract, buy out Kaberle in the summer and one hand washes the other. If the numbers floating around are to believed the Habs simply aren't being fair to Subban at all.
Try to understand my post. I said posturing by stating he will not show up to camp. The respectful thing to do is to shut up, work very hard on trying to get a deal done and not show up only if everything fails. Subban has been posturing and has continued to do this with the Stubbs article.
Subban is just following the example of a Habs' HOF alumni.
Of course if Subbans initial offer was 6.5 like drew D and they haven't budged either we are still at a standstill. We don't know how much either side has moved or where the initial offers came from. I think MBs initial offer is right where it should have been. Should he move on it, yes. How much is another question. The price patches situations are different, but they are the 'habs' benchmark and that is what they are going with. Probably why Josh said what he said.
I don't personally have a dog in this fight...I think both sides have arguments that are worthy. There's no wonder why this has dragged on because it's not as clear cut as many claim it to be.
But I also think this has dragged on way too long and now, we're starting to damage the reputation of a player, that management really has no interest in losing or trading. At some point, both sides have a responsibility to each other to end this holdout.
Enough with the pride and making one side bend to your will...time for both sides to put a little faith in each other.
What I meant to say is that there's a difference with not showing up at camp and telling the media you will not show up at camp. The latter is postering, the former is business. I have no problem with the business end of it.
Yhea.. it's posturing (postUring) to tell the media what everybody already knows, especially when they ask you.
I would use the media too if I was having my character assassinated in the media for not signing. "This is their offer." That's not so bad. When you find out what the offer is -that- is when most people (except the vocal brain dead) realized that Subban is not being unreasonable but Bergevin is.
It is true about what he said about PK when he was hired. I forgot about that. He has not used it since though, just to say that he wants to sign him.
regardless...you said Subban has used the media to help his cause..
So have the Habs, whether they've done it once or twice is irrelevant. The media is a powerful tool and it's used by both sides in negotiations and there's nothing wrong with that.
Also, the Habs hold most of the cards in this situation...so it's not shocking that Subban is using one of the few tools he has at his disposal to state his position.
Other teams have had no problem giving young stars long-term "pay for potential" contracts. I just listed two in Carlson/Fowler, there is many many others.
Montreal is one of the only teams in the league with a substantial amount of money behind it that doesn't hand out big pay days to it's young core players.
The very least they could do is offer him a 2 yr 8.5M contract, buy out Kaberle in the summer and one hand washes the other. If the numbers floating around are to believed the Habs simply aren't being fair to Subban at all.
Well if subban hasn't budged off long term, no one has confirmed otherwise, then habs would be paying far higher than that. And 4.25 is still high on a bridge contract. I see a lot of holes in his game on his supposed better defensive portion. But I guess if you are willing to pay for potential that we might as well pay him his UFA worth and be done with it. I mean if hammer got 5.5 then we should be paying Subban 7.5-8.5 in 4 years so might as well do it now.
Sarcasm aside, 3.75 is the highest I would go at the moment. If they could sign subban to 6 years at 4.5 or even 5 million the habs should do it. He would still be trade able at that level if he doesn't get much better. I think this is more about short term second contract and making sure ALL players follow this route, We will be going through this with gally in 2 years and 3 months otherwise.
Edited to add, I thknk this is why they are playing hardball. We have some very good up and comers and unless we plan on losing them all in a few years span, its best that we show even if you are a star you follow the team plan. In 3-6 years time we could be doing this over and over otherwise. I don't think this is entirely about subban from an MB perspective. Its the long game that is far more important. If someone puts an offer sheet they will match and say there hands where tied, but otherwise they want to get the most value out of the young guys they can.
Last edited by Doc McKenna: 01-27-2013 at 09:30 AM.
Well if subban hasn't budged off long term, no one has confirmed otherwise, then habs would be paying far higher than that. And 4.25 is still high on a bridge contract. I see a lot of holes in his game on his supposed better defensive portion. But I guess if you are willing to pay for potential that we might as well pay him his UFA worth and be done with it. I mean if hammer got 5.5 then we should be paying Subban 7.5-8.5 in 4 years so might as well do it now.
Sarcasm aside, 3.75 is the highest I would go at the moment. If they could sign subban to 6 years at 4.5 or even 5 million the habs should do it. He would still be trade able at that level if he doesn't get much better. I think this is more about short term second contract and making sure ALL players follow this route, We will be going through this will gally in 2 years and 3 months otherwise.
Dave Stubbs confirmed that Subban is not insistent on a long term contract...what he's insistent on is being paid for what he thinks is fair, whether that's a short-term or long-term contract
