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P.K. Subban Thread IX: 'Try to make this one last longer than a day' Edition

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01-27-2013, 10:26 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Try to understand my post. I said posturing by stating he will not show up to camp. The respectful thing to do is to shut up, work very hard on trying to get a deal done and not show up only if everything fails. Subban has been posturing and has continued to do this with the Stubbs article.
I'll take that as a no.

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01-27-2013, 10:28 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Other teams have had no problem giving young stars long-term "pay for potential" contracts. I just listed two in Carlson/Fowler, there is many many others.

Montreal is one of the only teams in the league with a substantial amount of money behind it that doesn't hand out big pay days to it's young core players.

The very least they could do is offer him a 2 yr 8.5M contract, buy out Kaberle in the summer and one hand washes the other. If the numbers floating around are to believed the Habs simply aren't being fair to Subban at all.
What makes no sense about this is Montreal has to overpay for free agents, yes there's a small passionate minority who'd love to play in the hockey mecca (such as PK Subban?), but for the most part between Quebec taxes, the pressure and (for some) the weather, you need to significantly outbid other teams to recruit FAs. The only reason Cole, Gionta and Prust are here is that reason, in fact the only guy who signed a contract with this team who could have gotten the same amount of money elsewhere is Plekanec - a homegrown player. The rest are here either because we own them, traded for them, our outbid everyone else for their services.

Lowballing our own makes zero sense in this market, we don't have a tax advantage like southern American teams and we aren't a contender, if you can tie up emerging stars to reasonable contracts, you should do it and then worry about what to do next.

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01-27-2013, 10:29 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
He postured by saying he would not be at camp if he did not have a deal. He should have kept his moth shut.
Jamie Benn also said he wouldn't be at camp if he didn't have a contract. And guess what, he didn't until he signed that contract.

It's also called stating the obvious.

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01-27-2013, 10:31 AM
  #304
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http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/01/...ith-pk-subban/

Habs are playing Dangerous game with PK. Must get him signed soon.

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01-27-2013, 10:34 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
What makes no sense about this is Montreal has to overpay for free agents, yes there's a small passionate minority who'd love to play in the hockey mecca (such as PK Subban?), but for the most part between Quebec taxes, the pressure and (for some) the weather, you need to significantly outbid other teams to recruit FAs. The only reason Cole, Gionta and Prust are here is that reason, in fact the only guy who signed a contract with this team who could have gotten the same amount of money elsewhere is Plekanec - a homegrown player. The rest are here either because we own them, traded for them, our outbid everyone else for their services.

Lowballing our own makes zero sense in this market, we don't have a tax advantage like southern American teams and we aren't a contender, if you can tie up emerging stars to reasonable contracts, you should do it and then worry about what to do next.
Problem then is we overpay for all players. Homegrown or otherwise. Patches contract good, price not so much. How can you expect the team to ever get better if they can always use taxes as a crutch for overpaying everyone. I really haven't seen too mahy hometown discounts on our players. Maybe markov pre injury. And Koivu of course

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01-27-2013, 10:36 AM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Problem then is we overpay for all players. Homegrown or otherwise. Patches contract good, price not so much. How can you expect the team to ever get better if they can always use taxes as a crutch for overpaying everyone. I really haven't seen too mahy hometown discounts on our players. Maybe markov pre injury. And Koivu of course
How do you expect to ever be good if you let all your talent go away because you won't sign them for at least market value?

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01-27-2013, 10:39 AM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
What makes no sense about this is Montreal has to overpay for free agents, yes there's a small passionate minority who'd love to play in the hockey mecca (such as PK Subban?), but for the most part between Quebec taxes, the pressure and (for some) the weather, you need to significantly outbid other teams to recruit FAs. The only reason Cole, Gionta and Prust are here is that reason, in fact the only guy who signed a contract with this team who could have gotten the same amount of money elsewhere is Plekanec - a homegrown player. The rest are here either because we own them, traded for them, our outbid everyone else for their services.

Lowballing our own makes zero sense in this market, we don't have a tax advantage like southern American teams and we aren't a contender, if you can tie up emerging stars to reasonable contracts, you should do it and then worry about what to do next.
Logic rears its ugly head. Every rational analysis of Subban's stats points to the fact that he is worth over $4-million per season.

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Old
01-27-2013, 10:42 AM
  #308
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In response to "Players never report to camp without contracts. This situation is not unique to Subban."

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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I love you guys, Subban can do no wrong. MB should be fired because he's an idiot.
\


JFC. This almost never happens. Players without contracts do NOT show up at their teams training camps. I'm sure in some or all of hte pro leagues there are CBA rules that would actually prohibit players on contract/holdout type situations from attending camp. I'm struggling to think of an exception but I cannot.

We have segment of the fanbase looking to smear Subban in whatever way possible and reach for garbage like this, but if anybody tries to bring reality into it we must be just ballwashing PK.

Shake my head indeed.

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01-27-2013, 10:43 AM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Problem then is we overpay for all players. Homegrown or otherwise. Patches contract good, price not so much. How can you expect the team to ever get better if they can always use taxes as a crutch for overpaying everyone. I really haven't seen too mahy hometown discounts on our players. Maybe markov pre injury. And Koivu of course
I wouldn't call Plekanec's contract a discount, but it's very reasonable. The only issue is the NTC. Which is one reason I'm against trading him without getting a great offer, but that's another story.

Other than that...Markov is cheaper than he would have been healthy, but is no discount considering the circumstances, Gorges is fair but generous, I can live with both Patches and Price's contracts but considering they were both RFAs...this bridge thing is hurting, I know signing young players for longer is a gamble but this conservative thing isn't working either.

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01-27-2013, 10:43 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
How do you expect to ever be good if you let all your talent go away because you won't sign them for at least market value?
But at least you showed them how to behave the "white" way. (a Darren Pangism)

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01-27-2013, 10:47 AM
  #311
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I'm not in the "sign Subban at all cost" crew, but...

Not only is the guy worth much more than guys like Kulikov and MDZ (which are comparables, according to MB's offer), but the team only has one player due for a substantial raise (read, 75+%) next season, and it's David Desharnais, doesn't make that much money to begin with.

So offering him, say, 2 years, 4.1 PER, won't prevent the team from signing anybody next season.

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01-27-2013, 10:48 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
huh? What I mean is many on here want MB's head for not signing PK to a long-term contract and insisting on the bridge contract. Fair enough but those same people have to respect managements position that perhaps PK still has a lot to prove both on and off the ice.
NO.

The calls for MB's head have come not from the bridge contract. Most of us on the sign PK side want a long term deal but accept that PK will have to take 2 yrs based on the current state of affairs.

It's the news the MB is trying to force PK to take a deal that's not close to reasonable. Even the "PK thinks he's bigger than the team" crowd are considering 2/$7 as fair yet the team is offering PK $2M less than this.

The whole process is beyond baffling.

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01-27-2013, 10:55 AM
  #313
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Is Bergevin prepared to become the most hated man in Quebec?

I can not see this ending up very well for his popularity if he trades subban, barring miraculous returns instead. Even for those that think Subban is worth only 2 years and 3 millions per, nobody wants to see him go. Ok, I'll take that back, the vast majority do not want him traded.

So does Bergevin have the confidence, security and most importantly the balls to trade off the most popular habs asset we've had in decades? I will say no.

My predictions: Meehan will request a trade for his client. Media frenzy will follow and Bergevin is going to soften up his stance and make a legitimate offer that will be accepted.

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01-27-2013, 10:56 AM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Other teams have had no problem giving young stars long-term "pay for potential" contracts. I just listed two in Carlson/Fowler, there is many many others.

Montreal is one of the only teams in the league with a substantial amount of money behind it that doesn't hand out big pay days to it's young core players.

The very least they could do is offer him a 2 yr 8.5M contract, buy out Kaberle in the summer and one hand washes the other. If the numbers floating around are to believed the Habs simply aren't being fair to Subban at all.
I'm 100% with you on this. I friggin' can't stand when policy becomes dogma and an organization refuses to adapt. How hard is it to acknowledge that other organizations have had more success with their investments than we have? How hard is it to admit your policies haven't worked and adopt policies that have worked? What the hell is wrong with the Habs?

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01-27-2013, 10:56 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
NO.

The calls for MB's head have come not from the bridge contract. Most of us on the sign PK side want a long term deal but accept that PK will have to take 2 yrs based on the current state of affairs.

It's the news the MB is trying to force PK to take a deal that's not close to reasonable. Even the "PK thinks he's bigger than the team" crowd are considering 2/$7 as fair yet the team is offering PK $2M less than this.

The whole process is beyond baffling.
Agreed, although I would prefer as a fan of the habs that we lock up our star 23 year old dman now, rather than pay through the nose in a few years. I'm fine with pk signing for two years as well, but I think PK is worth substantially more than what is being proposed.

If these talks become bitter it could leave Subban wondering if his future is with the CH, which isn't beneficial to either side.

Personally I would throw 8 yrs and 48 his way, but I'm not opposed to someone who has a differing opinion on the exact numbers, I'm opposed to blanket, one size fits all strategies that don't offer any particular rewards.

Read the philly board. most of them are willing to offer sheet as high as just prior to 4 1st compensation, yet we think 2 yrs at 5.2 is reasonable, I don't think so.

If I am Subban, I sit.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 01-27-2013 at 01:41 PM.
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01-27-2013, 10:57 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
NO.

The calls for MB's head have come not from the bridge contract. Most of us on the sign PK side want a long term deal but accept that PK will have to take 2 yrs based on the current state of affairs.

It's the news the MB is trying to force PK to take a deal that's not close to reasonable. Even the "PK thinks he's bigger than the team" crowd are considering 2/$7 as fair yet the team is offering PK $2M less than this.

The whole process is beyond baffling.
We all love spending other people's money ... or at least telling them how they should do it.

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01-27-2013, 10:57 AM
  #317
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I'm not in the "sign Subban at all cost" crew, but...

Not only is the guy worth much more than guys like Kulikov and MDZ (which are comparables, according to MB's offer), but the team only has one player due for a substantial raise (read, 75+%) next season, and it's David Desharnais, doesn't make that much money to begin with.

So offering him, say, 2 years, 4.1 PER, won't prevent the team from signing anybody next season.
If DD doesn't step up his game, he won't be getting a raise at all.

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01-27-2013, 11:05 AM
  #318
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Quiet start to the day considering its gameday.

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01-27-2013, 11:05 AM
  #319
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If DD doesn't step up his game, he won't be getting a raise at all.
While he kinda needs to step up his game for the sake of the team...

The guy is getting 800K PER at the moment.

I mean, he's either getting a substantial raise (compared to his actual salary) or not getting an offer at all.

And by my parameters, a substantial raise would give him a 1.4M$ deal.

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01-27-2013, 11:05 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
We all love spending other people's money ... or at least telling them how they should do it.
I am beginning to believe this is just an internet hoax and I am being secretly filmed as I slowly lose my mind.

The Montreal Canadiens are one of the richest franchises in the NHL and have no problem being a cap team. This is not about what the team can afford, it is seeing the team either willfully or not trying to devalue a key player.

I cheer for the Montreal Canadiens and I want the team to do well. This includes getting one of their best players signed. My allegiance doesn't necessarily lie with the guy who charges $200 tickets and $12 beers.

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01-27-2013, 11:07 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
While he kinda needs to step up his game for the sake of the team...

The guy is getting 800K PER at the moment.

I mean, he's either getting a substantial raise (compared to his actual salary) or not getting an offer at all.

And by my parameters, a substantial raise would give him a 1.4M$ deal.
Fair enough.

I've seen some people suggest he's somehow worth north of 4M.

IMO he won't even have a spot on this roster within 2 seasons.

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01-27-2013, 11:07 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Is Bergevin prepared to become the most hated man in Quebec?

I can not see this ending up very well for his popularity if he trades subban, barring miraculous returns instead. Even for those that think Subban is worth only 2 years and 3 millions per, nobody wants to see him go. Ok, I'll take that back, the vast majority do not want him traded.

So does Bergevin have the confidence, security and most importantly the balls to trade off the most popular habs asset we've had in decades? I will say no.

My predictions: Meehan will request a trade for his client. Media frenzy will follow and Bergevin is going to soften up his stance and make a legitimate offer that will be accepted.
No, he won't end up being that man.

Besides, he isn't obligated AT ALL to trade Subban, even if Subban requests a trade. It's not like Subban turns UFA anytime soon.

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01-27-2013, 11:09 AM
  #323
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Up until now I wasn't prepared to pass judgement because there wasn't enough information out there to know what was going on. Now we've seen enough reports to hear that the Habs are in fact offering him 5 mil over tow years. And that's enough for me to declare that MB is an idiot.

So now... we have another GM who doesn't know his ass from his head. Can't wait to see how this unfolds. Finally have some elite young talent to build around and we decide to **** it up.

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01-27-2013, 11:10 AM
  #324
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From the Winnipeg Sun, top of the far right column...

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01-27-2013, 11:12 AM
  #325
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Bergevins mistake here was drawing a line in the sand. If it works great, but if PK holds firm a well? You've basically forced yourself to either break and show weakness (which this early in his tenure would be a disaster for future negotiations), or trade your star D. Either way, relationships have been damaged.

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