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Old
01-27-2013, 09:43 AM
  #51
Gobias Industries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Like I said: Some people have no vision and cannot see beyond the tip of their nose.

The fact that the Leafs didn't make the playoffs in 4 means only means that they were set up badly from the players we had, to the prospects in the cupboard when Burke took over.

That's what it "only means"? I think there's more to it than just that, we've seen rebuilds go up faster in shorter time, FA alone has changed some teams significantly for the better.

And I wouldn't call going on five years "tip of their nose", personally.

Anyway, wrong thread, but your absolutism is palpable.

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01-27-2013, 09:43 AM
  #52
sgupca
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He needs to be NOT paired with an AHL Dman.


I'm not suggesting Kostka doesn't dererve to be in the NHL, but he's a bottom pairing guy who should see 13-15mins a night. He shouldn't be paired with Dion, esp if Dion is leaned upon to shut down other teams top lines.

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01-27-2013, 09:47 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
It's really not a stupid stat, actually I don't know if there is such a thing as a stupid stat.

Just stupid people reading stats without context, like what you just provided.
okay dudebro. Tell me again all the useful conclusions you can pull from applying a team-dependent metric to an individual and then using that metric to compare players on different teams. Enlighten the stupid people like myself. We're waiting with bated breath.

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01-27-2013, 09:52 AM
  #54
Gobias Industries
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
okay dudebro. Tell me again all the useful conclusions you can pull from applying a team-dependent metric to an individual and then using that metric to compare players on different teams. Enlighten the stupid people like myself. We're waiting with bated breath.
I was saying context like your own was what is required when looking at +/-. It's a measure of the game, nothing more. It's not stupid, it's stupid to reference blindly, like so many posters do. But we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's just information.

Here's a thread on how it could be used effectively, for example.

I do agree, a thread title like this is stupid though, but, it still means he's been on for eight more goals against than for. How you judge him for that is up to you. In this case, I blame him somewhat, but it's also because he was on too long with a crappy partner.

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01-27-2013, 09:57 AM
  #55
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Phaneuf -8 and Kostka -7 pairing are ranked #1 and #2 in the league against all NHL players in the +/- stat.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/pl...us/order/false

As a result alternate defense pairings for next game are likely to be expected.

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01-27-2013, 09:58 AM
  #56
7even
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
I was saying your context like your own was what is required when looking at +/-. It's a measure of the game, nothing more. It's not stupid, it's stupid to reference blindly, like so many posters do. But we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's just information.

Here's a thread on how it could be used effectively/
That's adjusted +/-. Of course +/- can be used to gain insight with the right adjustments. Is that what anyone here is talking about when they "Dion's a -8 and the worst player ever?" No, they're referring to plain old un-corrected +/-, which is damn near useless.

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01-27-2013, 10:01 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post
That's adjusted +/-. Of course +/- can be used to gain insight with the right adjustments. Is that what anyone here is talking about when they "Dion's a -8 and the worst player ever?" No, they're referring to plain old un-corrected +/-, which is damn near useless.
Does arguing semantics make you feel better about your favorite players performance?

I hope so

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01-27-2013, 10:02 AM
  #58
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their simply playing too many minutes and are burnt out by the 3rd which is when you guys seem to be getting in trouble. The other problem with giving them those kinds of minutes is even if you guys were winning they'd be toast by playoff time. No coach should be doing that especially in a shortened season with a shortened training camp when your key d man has been sitting until the beginning of the year. You guys will continue to lose until he addresses this. Not that you guys will miraculously be contenders if they play 10 less minutes a night but you won't start winning until it's corrected. Just my 2 cents.

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01-27-2013, 10:03 AM
  #59
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i thought dion was playing really well. just have to go to hf learn a random stat and be proven wrong. thanks hf!

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01-27-2013, 10:07 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
their simply playing too many minutes and are burnt out by the 3rd which is when you guys seem to be getting in trouble. The other problem with giving them those kinds of minutes is even if you guys were winning they'd be toast by playoff time. No coach should be doing that especially in a shortened season with a shortened training camp when your key d man has been sitting until the beginning of the year. You guys will continue to lose until he addresses this. Not that you guys will miraculously be contenders if they play 10 less minutes a night but you won't start winning until it's corrected. Just my 2 cents.

Absolutely too many minutes its strange.

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Old
01-27-2013, 10:16 AM
  #61
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we should trade Dion Phaneuf for Ryan Suter./.. Suter is on the final page of +/- on NHL.com and hes a -4 and they both have the same amount of pts, 1...

right folks, thats how it works. +/- means everything.

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01-27-2013, 10:19 AM
  #62
Gobias Industries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post
That's adjusted +/-. Of course +/- can be used to gain insight with the right adjustments. Is that what anyone here is talking about when they "Dion's a -8 and the worst player ever?" No, they're referring to plain old un-corrected +/-, which is damn near useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by From that thread I posted - Overpass
The plus-minus statistic is often reviled by NHL fans as a useless statistic. This is understandable, as the stat produces numbers that are often inexplicable. Most importantly, a player’s team is a major factor in his plus-minus.

However, the plus-minus stat is not without merit. Most importantly, it aims to measure the most important part of winning – outscoring the other team. The only thing that matters in winning hockey games is outscoring the other team, whether by scoring goals or preventing them. Evaluating players based on scoring stats alone will more directly measure a player’s contribution to scoring, but will fail to capture other aspects of the game, especially defensive play. Plus-minus aims to capture the full impact of a player’s game, but it is a more indirect measure that can be influenced by a number of factors out of the player’s control.
It's not perfect, but it is what it is.

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01-27-2013, 10:25 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Does arguing semantics make you feel better about your favorite players performance?

I hope so
Personally I feel like Sundin had a good enough career where I don't need to argue semantics to defend him. He's a HHOF for Christ's sake.

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01-27-2013, 10:32 AM
  #64
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I can't imagine it being the best arrangement to play over half the game with an AHL defenseman...

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01-27-2013, 10:35 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Dion's a quality 2nd pair D who's forced into a role he not good enough to play . I have no idea why RC is riding him and Kostka to this extent , 30 plus minutes is nuts . All i can think of is he has very little confidence in the bottom pair guys he keeps rotating in and out of the line up .
Like most of our players. No real first line players either IMO on any decent to good team.

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Old
01-27-2013, 10:36 AM
  #66
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Question remains: Is Phaneuf truly an elite defenseman? The "captain" issue is an entirely different matter. Not sure that the Leafs "follow" his lead.


Last edited by Hurt: 01-28-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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01-27-2013, 11:16 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Vintage Leaf Memories View Post
Question remains: Is Phaneuf truly an elite defenseman? The "captain" issue is an entirely different matter. Not sure that the Leafs "follow" his lead.
As an offensive minded defenceman yes. But as a shutdown defender no. And the problem is that is the task he is faced with.

Also most 'elite" dman excel at both offence/defence or are paired with player to cover up those short comings. That said, in now way, shape or form is Phaneuf worth his salary. His large salary eats up too much cap space and is part of the reason that the leafs need to ice cheap AHL talent on defence


Last edited by Hurt: 01-28-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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01-27-2013, 11:25 AM
  #68
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Celine Dion Phaneuf?

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01-27-2013, 11:28 AM
  #69
7even
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Celine Dion Phaneuf?
Oh I get it, you're making fun of him by calling him female. Because that's bad.

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01-27-2013, 11:30 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
everyone was shocked he didn't make Team Canada for the Olympics

What?!


Do you have the memory of a gold fish? I'm not even a big fan of his but If you don't think he wasn't on the very short list for potential replacement D for the Olympics you're drunk. He was considered a lock to make it until he had a poor season that year.


Last edited by Ash35: 01-27-2013 at 11:47 AM.
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01-27-2013, 11:39 AM
  #71
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Dion is 2nd in the league with TOI/G. Second only to Doughty who are currently the Stanley Cup defenders. Last I checked Doughty isn't paired with an AHLer.

Lay off the guy.

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01-27-2013, 11:51 AM
  #72
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He's not a shutdown dman, but is being used as one, because he's the closest thing we have to a shutdown dman. Add in a number of forwards who are weak defensively, and no real #1 goalie, and opposing top lines are going to be scoring A LOT when Dion is trying to shut them down. I feel like a major need for this team is a true shutdown dman, someone who can legitimately go up against top lines and stop them from scoring. We wanted Schenn to be that guy, but he wasn't, what we need is a Hamhuis, Suter, McDonagh, Girardi, Alzner, Gorges, Seabrook, Volchenkov, etc. type of player. This would free up Dion to play to his strengths - a hard hitting offensive dman with a big shot and decent, but not great defensive abilities. If we could get a LEGIT shutdown dman (one who is truly excellent at that job), as well as a legit starting goalie, I feel like our defensive problems would finally be solved. Honestly, I think these are more pressing needs than a #1 centre (though that is obviously a major need as well).

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01-27-2013, 11:55 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
He's not a shutdown dman, but is being used as one, because he's the closest thing we have to a shutdown dman. Add in a number of forwards who are weak defensively, and no real #1 goalie, and opposing top lines are going to be scoring A LOT when Dion is trying to shut them down. I feel like a major need for this team is a true shutdown dman, someone who can legitimately go up against top lines and stop them from scoring. We wanted Schenn to be that guy, but he wasn't, what we need is a Hamhuis, Suter, McDonagh, Girardi, Alzner, Gorges, Seabrook, Volchenkov, etc. type of player. This would free up Dion to play to his strengths - a hard hitting offensive dman with a big shot and decent, but not great defensive abilities. If we could get a LEGIT shutdown dman (one who is truly excellent at that job), as well as a legit starting goalie, I feel like our defensive problems would finally be solved. Honestly, I think these are more pressing needs than a #1 centre (though that is obviously a major need as well).
This x 100. Excellent post, This is my exact thoughts.

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01-27-2013, 12:02 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Excuse after excuse.

The worst plus/minus in the league... And more excuses.

He's played badly so far. That's it.

Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of players in the league... And he has the worst plus/minus.

If you want to call it 'bad luck', then go for it.

Who do you think is more likely deluded?
The person who says that the Player with the worst plus/minus in the entire league has been BAD thus far? Or the person claims that the player with the worse plus/minus in the entire league has played GOOD thus far.

Seriously take some time for self reflection before you answer that question.
finally someone smart thank you for seeing how bad dion is. He is out for every goal pretty much cant make a proper pass out of his end and always gets stripped of the puck. He fractured our best players arm and should never be out on a PP. Why carlye puts him and kostka out for every PP still baffles me JML is by far the best passer on D and usually on get the last 30 secs of the PP after dion does **** all. Sundin Clarke Sittler Keon Gilmour Phaneuf ......hmmm which one doesnt belong

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:02 PM
  #75
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Phaneuff is isn't suited to the role...

The problem is we dont have a better option.He is paid $6.5 million so we might as well flog him.This team will be blown up at trade deadline,Phaneuff will be on his way out of town and will have earned his $6.5 million the hard way.

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