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Will the Detroit Red Wings be a powerhouse team again?

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Old
01-27-2013, 07:28 AM
  #1
mindfly
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Will the Detroit Red Wings be a powerhouse team again?

For how long do you think the mediocrity will last? It's been 3½ years already (09/10 season) of pure "meh".

Do you think they will need to re-build as many of the current powerhouse teams have done... Sucking, getting high draft picks etc?

How do you see this unfold?

I remember "a few" seasons ago and you could be 90% sure that the wings would win a certain game. Now they're more or less a .500 team. How the mighty have fallen

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01-27-2013, 08:07 AM
  #2
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Wings could be on the rise again as early as next season with careful management of the roster, use of buyouts, and luck in drafting\free agency.

I say, whatever happens with the playoffs and with drafting, we need to A. let Cleary go, and B. buy out CC and Samuelsson. Resign Brunner, Flip, and Howard promote Nyquist\Tatar full-time, and sign a decent top-4 D and top-six F.

Flip-Dats-Semin
Franzen-Zetts-Brunner
Nyquist-Helm-Tatar
Abdelkader-Scrub UFA-Bertuzzi
Eaves

Kronwall-Whitney
Ericsson-Smith
Quincey-Kindl

Howard

That third line would be hell on wheels.

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01-27-2013, 08:30 AM
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09/10 could of been good if half the roster wasn't injured most of the year.

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01-27-2013, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schroedingers Cat View Post
Wings could be on the rise again as early as next season with careful management of the roster, use of buyouts, and luck in drafting\free agency.

I say, whatever happens with the playoffs and with drafting, we need to A. let Cleary go, and B. buy out CC and Samuelsson. Resign Brunner, Flip, and Howard promote Nyquist\Tatar full-time, and sign a decent top-4 D and top-six F.

Flip-Dats-Semin
Franzen-Zetts-Brunner
Nyquist-Helm-Tatar
Abdelkader-Scrub UFA-Bertuzzi
Eaves

Kronwall-Whitney
Ericsson-Smith
Quincey-Kindl

Howard

That third line would be hell on wheels.
i do not see us signing semin nor perry nor getzlaf(and i dont think those last two make it too free agency)

our two best bets to make it to free agency and possibly sign with detroit are
-streit
-weiss
as they both play for small market not very good teams so may want to test their luck elsewhere nor will they be at the top of the pay scale and thus out of our reach nor generate as much interest as some of the other noteable possible UFA's.

the only current roster player we "may" buyout would be CC

cleary and miller will likely not be brought back

filppula will resign somewhere around 4-4.5$ a season
howard will resign somewhere around 3.5-3.8$ a season


FORWARDS
Gustav Nyquist ($0.788m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($4.400m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($1.500m)
Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Mark Streit ($4.700m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Brendan Smith ($0.900m)
Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Jakub Kindl ($0.900m)
Kent Huskins ($0.750m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
Jimmy Howard ($3.800m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,723,712; BONUSES: $160,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $736,288

see it dosent really work to see us adding many big pieces this summer unless we trade quincey or franzen(we wont) or we let filppula walk(we wont)


Last edited by Zetterberg4Captain: 01-27-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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01-27-2013, 08:47 AM
  #5
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The big fish players never get to free agency in the modern day NHL, you need to TRADE, but KH is unwilling to do so... don't even think detroit has the right pieces, every skilled nhl player on the wings roster are too old, other GM's want young talent.

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01-27-2013, 08:53 AM
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Get ride of CC, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and Cleary. Promote younger guys like Nyquist, Tatar, and Sheahan. We need to land a top-4 defenseman, but keep guys like Huskins and Lashoff if they continue to play this well, as they're cheap and reliable. Re-sign Howie, Flip, and Brunner.

Filppula-Datsyuk-Nyquist
Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner
Tatar-Helm-Tootoo
Abdelkader-Sheahan-Eaves(?)

Kronwall-Whitney
Smith-Ericsson
Huskins-White
Lashoff

Howard
Gustavsson

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01-27-2013, 09:01 AM
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Powerhouse depends on the definition, but top team maybe two, three pieces away right now.

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01-27-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Powerhouse depends on the definition, but top team maybe two, three pieces away right now.
Definition of powerhouse team of the NHL in 2013 is Chicago Blackhawks. Look at their top6 forwards and top4 D.

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01-27-2013, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
Definition of powerhouse team of the NHL in 2013 is Chicago Blackhawks. Look at their top6 forwards and top4 D.
More importantly their top six forwards and top four defense play like top six forwards and top four defense. Kane, Toews, and Hossa regularly combine for big goals, a problem Z+D seem to have at times.

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01-27-2013, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
Definition of powerhouse team of the NHL in 2013 is Chicago Blackhawks. Look at their top6 forwards and top4 D.
So a very good, albeit flawed team?

Top six is stacked but with Bolland on the second line their depth takes a hit. I personally don't see the Hammer/Oduya pairing as anything special. Crawford doesn't seem like a goalie who can be counted on to go deep in the playoffs.

Chicago is a top-heavy team so when the big guns are going they unsurprisingly look great.

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01-27-2013, 09:36 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Xvash2 View Post
More importantly their top six forwards and top four defense play like top six forwards and top four defense. Kane, Toews, and Hossa regularly combine for big goals, a problem Z+D seem to have at times.
I don't think so, it just seems that way on the outside. Zetterberg and Datsyuk outscored Toews and Kane last year. The difference is Sharp and Hossa > Filppula and Franzen. I think we can agree they have the flat out better D, especially top pairing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
Definition of powerhouse team of the NHL in 2013 is Chicago Blackhawks. Look at their top6 forwards and top4 D.
2010 Chicago I think was a powerhouse. 2013 Chicago is more the definition of top heavy. Their bottom 6 is quite greasy and they have a low tier starter in goal. Their defense depends what form you get of Keith, but so far this season he's not been in any sort of Norris form, going -4 despite 5 wins. But like I said, it depends on what definition of powerhouse one has, it's really hard to have both the best top talent and depth with the cap. I personally think the Blues and Sharks are better.

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01-27-2013, 09:42 AM
  #12
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Powerhouse team is also a fully healthy Vancouver Canucks, San Jose Sharks, St.Louis Blues, Pittsburgh Penguins.

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01-27-2013, 09:50 AM
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But let's pretend we get those two additions I was talking about. I'll use the big dogs from last year's free agency.

Parise-Datsyuk-Filppula
Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner

Suter-White
Kronwall-Smith/Ericsson

That'd look a lot like a top team. Basically Parise instead of Sammy/Bert and Suter instead of Quincey. Makes quite the difference. Then you could add a 4C at the deadline.

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01-27-2013, 10:49 AM
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I think they will if they don't get entitled and try to buy their way back into the mix with draft picks and prospects. Holland (and whoever replaces him) has to be honest with himself about the state of his team and let nature take its course.

I think it's hard for a GM who's used to winning to accept the idea of rebuilding, though. They get egocentric and think losing is something that is their fault, and so they try to avoid losing at every turn. But in doing so, they keep themselves from really being able to win either.

So, in other words, the Wings can be a powerhouse again if they embrace the idea that they have to maximize their potential for wins and avoid the mindset that they must minimize losses. As we've seen, sometimes a little controlled losing results in a bigger win down the line. You just can't let your pride get in the way.

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01-27-2013, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
The big fish players never get to free agency in the modern day NHL, you need to TRADE, but KH is unwilling to do so... don't even think detroit has the right pieces, every skilled nhl player on the wings roster are too old, other GM's want young talent.
One of the things we don't talk a lot about is that the Wings don't create value for their prospects. Look at other teams, particularly Eastern teams like the Flyers. They create value by letting their young guys make the team, even if it's lower in the roster. These teams don't subscribe to the idea that top minutes in the AHL is better than NHL spot duty. The result is a young player that is not necessarily as good as a veteran, but has established that he can play at the NHL level, and has much more value than he would as a prospect.

But, again, that player doesn't have the absolute playing value of a veteran, which is what the Wings are trying to maximize. I think that given the state of the team, that's the wrong type of value to try to be maximizing. Having a guy like Nyquist and not playing him is strange asset management. If you don't play him, you can move him, but only after you've established some kind of value for him. But the Wings haven't done that. They're just sitting on him, letting him get bored in the AHL. So consequently he has relatively little trade value, hasn't developed his NHL game, and is a little annoyed. They aren't maximizing anything at all with regard to Nyquist as an asset.

Of course, the NHL isn't a trade league anymore either. Every time a trade is made (and I think this is particularly obvious in the last 2-3 years), somebody is left hurting. If you have a veteran player to unload, you want top flight young guys, but nobody will part with those, so you take less value. If you have a young player to move, you probably want the world for him (see Subban and O'Reilly), but nobody is going to pay that. Don't get me started on draft picks. The takehome is that trading is usually unsatisfying and doesn't really fulfill anyone.

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01-27-2013, 11:16 AM
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I dont think Detroit needs a full traditional rebuild. Our prospect pool does lack any of those "bonafide" elite prospects but it is very deep and talented group.

To get those sorts of prospects you essentially have to be very bad or be very bold
very bad= pittsburgh
very bold=boston and philly

I dont want to see Detroit become the next Edmonton of the West.

I just want to see KH take a bit more aggressive posture.

Through out an offer sheet

Be aggressive on the trade front for yong disgurntled higher end players(el nino anyone)

Make the tough decision before the aging player makes it for you. Do NOT resign Cleary or Miller, buyout CC and Eaves, waive Mursak and trade Quincey at this trade deadline for a pick(even IF we are a playoff team) and promote and play some youngsters in important roles(Nyquist, Tatar and Sheehan)

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01-27-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
I dont think Detroit needs a full traditional rebuild. Our prospect pool does lack any of those "bonafide" elite prospects but it is very deep and talented group.

To get those sorts of prospects you essentially have to be very bad or be very bold
very bad= pittsburgh
very bold=boston and philly

I dont want to see Detroit become the next Edmonton of the West.

I just want to see KH take a bit more aggressive posture.

Through out an offer sheet

Be aggressive on the trade front for yong disgurntled higher end players(el nino anyone)

Make the tough decision before the aging player makes it for you. Do NOT resign Cleary or Miller, buyout CC and Eaves, waive Mursak and trade Quincey at this trade deadline for a pick(even IF we are a playoff team) and promote and play some youngsters in important roles(Nyquist, Tatar and Sheehan)
Offer sheets are a waste of time - they either get accepted by the team holding the rights immediately, or you have to offer SO MUCH that its an insane overpayment while giving up picks. I think if offer sheets actually worked more teams would do it.

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01-27-2013, 11:27 AM
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Offer sheets are a waste of time - they either get accepted by the team holding the rights immediately, or you have to offer SO MUCH that its an insane overpayment while giving up picks. I think if offer sheets actually worked more teams would do it.
At best, I think an offer sheet can work for a team that is on its way up. The values of those picks is obviously diminishing. I don't think it's a controversial assertion that the Wings are on their way down the standings. Because of that, those picks have a ton of value, and the offer sheet is relatively much more expensive of an option. It's not a smart move at this point from an asset value standpoint.

The other thing is that in order to get a player to sign, you have to outbid his current team. However, if that players were willing to sign any kind of reasonable contract, they probably would have signed with their current team (see: Subban, O'Reilly). This means that you have to offer an outrageous contract, give up a bunch of picks, and ultimately have that player take up a very large portion of your cap (and real dollar) space.

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01-27-2013, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Offer sheets are a waste of time - they either get accepted by the team holding the rights immediately, or you have to offer SO MUCH that its an insane overpayment while giving up picks. I think if offer sheets actually worked more teams would do it.
the philly weber offer sheet to me was a brillant attempt by Philly

had Nashville not matched the picks Phily would have given up have probably about a 1% chance of ever actually developing into the next Shea Weber, that is too say Nashville may have gotten a bunch of Martin Erats but no Shea Webers

Just look at detroits last 3 first round picks. I would trade all 3 in a heartbeat for Shea Weber without even thinking twice and thats basically what it amounts too.

Teams dont do it moreso for moral reasons whereby they all belong to the same boys club all wanting to win but not by stepping on each others toes, sometimes however, its ok to ruffle up those feathers

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01-27-2013, 12:10 PM
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I personally think Detroit can be that powerhouse this year. They have the players (aside from the defense core that needs a bit of work). But the forward core for the wings is quite talented they really just need to utilize their strengths and play with heart and grit. They need to stop playing lazy hockey, and get back to the dominate selfs back in 02/08 even 09. Can their be improvements? Most certainly. But I see the improvements being players on the current roster an the performance given. Ill give it a few more games its only been 4 games I'm not going to press the panic button yet.

Really if you've seen the Chicago games they got a bit lucky to win 2/3 of the games. St. Louis again close calls on their behalf as well. Hell even the sharks have been **** lucky. This entire season from the get go has really been weird and wonky. This will settle very very soon and the "real" teams will show up soon.

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01-27-2013, 12:24 PM
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I personally think Detroit can be that powerhouse this year. They have the players (aside from the defense core that needs a bit of work). But the forward core for the wings is quite talented they really just need to utilize their strengths and play with heart and grit. They need to stop playing lazy hockey, and get back to the dominate selfs back in 02/08 even 09. Can their be improvements? Most certainly. But I see the improvements being players on the current roster an the performance given. Ill give it a few more games its only been 4 games I'm not going to press the panic button yet.

Really if you've seen the Chicago games they got a bit lucky to win 2/3 of the games. St. Louis again close calls on their behalf as well. Hell even the sharks have been **** lucky. This entire season from the get go has really been weird and wonky. This will settle very very soon and the "real" teams will show up soon.
Saying Detroit could be a powerhouse with "luck" this year is laughable, Out of the nine D-men they've played this season only Kronwall is a top-four quality guy.

Detroit won't be a contender until they rebuild the defense.

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01-27-2013, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
For how long do you think the mediocrity will last? It's been 3½ years already (09/10 season) of pure "meh".

Do you think they will need to re-build as many of the current powerhouse teams have done... Sucking, getting high draft picks etc?

How do you see this unfold?

I remember "a few" seasons ago and you could be 90% sure that the wings would win a certain game. Now they're more or less a .500 team. How the mighty have fallen

What the hell kind of speculation is this, mindfly?

How the mighty have fallen?

Ho long exactly were the mighty supposed to remain a dominant force in a league with 30 teams where the weakest pick highest? And furthermore, with a cap system?


Maybe if they tank, they'll get their sooner. Who really knows.

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01-27-2013, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
For how long do you think the mediocrity will last? It's been 3½ years already (09/10 season) of pure "meh".

Do you think they will need to re-build as many of the current powerhouse teams have done... Sucking, getting high draft picks etc?

How do you see this unfold?

I remember "a few" seasons ago and you could be 90% sure that the wings would win a certain game. Now they're more or less a .500 team. How the mighty have fallen
Dats and Z are too good for us to tank and rebuild. As long as we keep those 2 players we will be at worst a bubble playoff team.

but powerhouse?...

If we had big years from Flip, Franzen, Brunner, Nyquist, Bertuzzi, and Smith, Lashoff, Huskins... then we are a contender. Powerhouse i am not sure, but we are CLOSER to being a powerhouse than we are to being DEAD last.

(Sadly of course, I think we need Tatar and Nyquist up on the team now to make the team "stronger")

Let me ask you this important question.

Why can't we have 3 scoring lines???

Mule-Dats-Bert
Flip-Zett-Brunner
Nyquist-Helm-Tatar

(why cant we just let them try to produce on the third line)... if they play like Ladd and Bolland etc from the Chicago 2010 team.. then we have a powerhouse.

I just don't expect that kind of monster performance from Cleary/Samuelsson.

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01-27-2013, 02:06 PM
  #24
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Quote:
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the philly weber offer sheet to me was a brillant attempt by Philly

had Nashville not matched the picks Phily would have given up have probably about a 1% chance of ever actually developing into the next Shea Weber, that is too say Nashville may have gotten a bunch of Martin Erats but no Shea Webers

Just look at detroits last 3 first round picks. I would trade all 3 in a heartbeat for Shea Weber without even thinking twice and thats basically what it amounts too.

Teams dont do it moreso for moral reasons whereby they all belong to the same boys club all wanting to win but not by stepping on each others toes, sometimes however, its ok to ruffle up those feathers
But Nashville was ALWAYS going to match. If teams didn't match them you'd see a bunch of offer sheets being handed out. Philly has tried this a few times and failed every time. They gain nothing by driving up Weber's contract to the Preds, they'll never play the Preds. I admire what they tried to do but its a waste of time.

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01-27-2013, 02:22 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schroedingers Cat View Post
Wings could be on the rise again as early as next season with careful management of the roster, use of buyouts, and luck in drafting\free agency.

I say, whatever happens with the playoffs and with drafting, we need to A. let Cleary go, and B. buy out CC and Samuelsson. Resign Brunner, Flip, and Howard promote Nyquist\Tatar full-time, and sign a decent top-4 D and top-six F.

Flip-Dats-Semin
Franzen-Zetts-Brunner
Nyquist-Helm-Tatar
Abdelkader-Scrub UFA-Bertuzzi
Eaves

Kronwall-Whitney
Ericsson-Smith
Quincey-Kindl

Howard

That third line would be hell on wheels.
Don't know if Semin is the answer, but I agree, this team can be moving in the right direction with an important move on defense and if we properly develop Tatar, Smith and Nyquist.

All three of these guys should be getting regular minutes in the NHL this year so that they are ready to be contributors when we do get our defense in shape.

This team has very important and potentially difficult decisions to make on Howard and Flip.

What if these guys want $5M a year? Do you pay it?

How do you improve your D when you spend that kind of money?

In the short term, we have a short window to be contenders IF we get a true Right-handed, top pairing defenseman.

The long term outlook -- for when Datsyuk leaves -- will depend a lot on Jarnkrok and Zetteberg's health or Holland's ability to get an elite center via trade or UFA

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