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P.K. Subban Thread IX: 'Try to make this one last longer than a day' Edition

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01-27-2013, 12:18 PM
  #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kade View Post
MB is actually using the CBA the way it should be used. It is in place to keep salaries in line until players reach UFA status. Posters on here need to wake up. The mess the NHL gets itself in is when GM's overpay before they have to. Agents then use these overpay contracts as new benchmarks and then we are a mess again resulting in a lockout. MB's stance should be applauded and followed by all GM's.
So because other GMs have overpaid.. we should lose an elite young defenseman due to lowballing?

Great logic. I'm sure the 29 other teams appreciate it while we toil at the bottom of the league every year.

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01-27-2013, 12:19 PM
  #452
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The ongoing "circus" in Hamilton is easy to explain.

Hamilton is in last place with the fewest goals scored by any team in the AHL.

Yet, that team is filled with players that have the mark of Gauthier and Timmins.

Go back to the threads admiring our draft picks as the next superstars. Go back to the threads admiring Gauthier's trades (Holland for example) where they were lauded and applauded as the answer to getting the next Stanley Cup.

And then look at how those players in Hamilton were OVERRATED by most on this board.

Unfortunately, reality trumps fans enthusiastic and adoring overratings.

Sound familiar in this discussion?
Actually, anyone who follows the team enough knows MB explicitly sad he didn't sign experienced AHL players for the Dogs because he wanted the young players to fend for themselves, and was expecting hard times. I'll find you the quote if you like. MB states that he wanted the young players to have major roles in their first season there (Dumont, Gallagher, Tinordi, Beaulieu) and if he had signed AHL players with experience, the team might do a lot better, but those young players wouldn't be learning as much..

There's no circus in Hamilton, how they are doing was expected by present management, and not because we don't have good prospects.

Pretty sure I'm not the only one who remembers MB saying this.

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01-27-2013, 12:19 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Kade View Post
MB is actually using the CBA the way it should be used. It is in place to keep salaries in line until players reach UFA status. Posters on here need to wake up. The mess the NHL gets itself in is when GM's overpay before they have to. Agents then use these overpay contracts as new benchmarks and then we are a mess again resulting in a lockout. MB's stance should be applauded and followed by all GM's.
Should we clap for him if Subban won't sign and gets traded for below his value?

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01-27-2013, 12:19 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Kade View Post
MB is actually using the CBA the way it should be used. It is in place to keep salaries in line until players reach UFA status. Posters on here need to wake up. The mess the NHL gets itself in is when GM's overpay before they have to. Agents then use these overpay contracts as new benchmarks and then we are a mess again resulting in a lockout. MB's stance should be applauded and followed by all GM's.
RFAs generally sign for less than they are worth. That's the benefit of having an RFA. But there are limits. You can't sit there and shove a 2 million dollar deal down a player's throat when he's worth more than double and expect things to work out. Lowballing a player under any circumstance is not a good idea.

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01-27-2013, 12:19 PM
  #455
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Thread slowly but surely turning into a Lafleur mancrush/bromance fest

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01-27-2013, 12:24 PM
  #456
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No give him 6 million per and screw your team for the future. And posters wonder why we have no money to get free agents. Gally and Tinordi will get 6 million in a few years. You actually have to work the cap to build a winning team.

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01-27-2013, 12:25 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Bloumeister View Post
Thread slowly but surely turning into a Lafleur mancrush/bromance fest
Still trying to figure out where the kids took this thread ?

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01-27-2013, 12:25 PM
  #458
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I was making a small joke about how markov was in great shape.And Lafleur at 61yrs old is also in good shape for his age.I'm sorry if I went off the real story.As for Markov he's playing great and if he continues habs could be in playoffs

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01-27-2013, 12:25 PM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kade View Post
No give him 6 million per and screw your team for the future. And posters wonder why we have no money to get free agents. Gally and Tinordi will get 6 million in a few years. You actually have to work the cap to build a winning team.
No one is saying to give him 6 million.

No one in their right mind should be saying he's worth 2.5 million either. Except the GM of our Franchise. That is disquieting.

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01-27-2013, 12:29 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Except in Meehan's office.
Meehan manage situations like that all the time. He's a businessman with dozens of clients, it would be silly to think that he'll hold a grudge.

Bergevin signed Amstrong, Prust and Bouillon generously and Meehan still is'nt making him any gift. To think that paying too much for PK now would pay-off later does'nt make any sense to me. At the next negociation, Meehan will try to get the most he can no mather what.


Do the NY Yankees get players cheaper just because they are generous and loved by agents?? Not at all, in fact they have to pay more than other teams. Ditto for the Rangers before the cap.

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01-27-2013, 12:29 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
I was making a small joke about how markov was in great shape.And Lafleur at 61yrs old is also in good shape for his age.I'm sorry if I went off the real story.As for Markov he's playing great and if he continues habs could be in playoffs
OK, so now we need a pic of Markov on a boat too?

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01-27-2013, 12:33 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
No one is saying to give him 6 million.

No one in their right mind should be saying he's worth 2.5 million either. Except the GM of our Franchise. That is disquieting.
I would give him 2 years at 3 million per or 8 years at around 5 million per year as you tie him up thru RFA for a few years. I am sure they only want to sign for 5 or 6 years so he comes out a UFA after the deal.

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01-27-2013, 12:34 PM
  #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
Meehan manage situations like that all the time. He's a businessman with dozens of clients, it would be silly to think that he'll hold a grudge.

Bergevin signed Amstrong, Prust and Bouillon generously and Meehan still is'nt making him any gift. To think that paying too much for PK now would pay-off later does'nt make any sense to me. At the next negociation, Meehan will try to get the most he can no mather what.


Do the NY Yankees get players cheaper just because they are generous and loved by agents?? Not at all, in fact they have to pay more than other teams. Ditto for the Rangers before the cap.
It's not about it being a grudge, it's about remembering..and coming to collect when the time comes. For Subban to take such a ridiculously low offer, it would be implied that they would have to make up for it when the time comes.

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01-27-2013, 12:35 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Kade View Post
No give him 6 million per and screw your team for the future. And posters wonder why we have no money to get free agents. Gally and Tinordi will get 6 million in a few years. You actually have to work the cap to build a winning team.
Nobody ever said to give him that. Some said they would actually go there if there was no other option, because they feel he'll be worth it eventually, but nobody is saying give him that.
Everybody seems to agree that something around 3.5M-5M is where it should be. So not sure how you got your number.

Also, if you're going to overpay a player, I rather give it to our homegrown star talent that might actually end up being worth every penny, not an old veteran on the open market that won't live up to his contract.

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Old
01-27-2013, 12:36 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Bloumeister View Post
OK, so now we need a pic of Markov on a boat too?

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01-27-2013, 12:36 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
The Habs are NOT trading Subban...don't know how many times this must be repeated

We are a LONG way away from the Habs even considering trading Subban...you can't refuse to sign Subban to a deal even starting at 3M, then at the same time, ask for a fair trade in return

there's no logic behind that...then again, this whole situation isn't logical

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's hard to stay positive when we continue to make unforced errors that don't make any sense. It's one thing to not rebuild, that's fair enough. If managment feels a different route is the direction they want to go, so be it.
I've been pounding away, posting point after point in agreement with both of you. But despite our laser-beam logic, the Habs remain intransigent and Subban remains in his sweatpants with a beer at game time.

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Which is why I'm becoming more and more convinced that the real issue is something happening totally behind the scenes. Either Bergevin is sifting through a dozen seriously tempting trade offers, or Subban feels alienated and wants out, or there's some collusion between Bergevin and another team to Offer-Sheet Subban, just so the Habs can match it and save face over why the organization paid him more than Price or Pacioretty.

All I know is that MB isn't really an idiot and that all the soundbites -- "Subban is NOT being traded!", "I want to play in Montreal!" -- are completely worthless. The real negotiations are happening safe from the media and the fans. We know nothing, and won't until this is resolved.

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01-27-2013, 12:37 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Kade View Post
I would give him 2 years at 3 million per or 8 years at around 5 million per year as you tie him up thru RFA for a few years. I am sure they only want to sign for 5 or 6 years so he comes out a UFA after the deal.
The point is, MB offered PK 2 years for 5.1 million last MAY. And he hasn't budged off that for 8 months. That is not negotiating, that's insulting to the process and PK since he's worth much more.

Imagine if the NHL lockout moved as slow as MB is, we wouldn't have hockey for 12 years.

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01-27-2013, 12:37 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
I was making a small joke about how markov was in great shape.And Lafleur at 61yrs old is also in good shape for his age.I'm sorry if I went off the real story.As for Markov he's playing great and if he continues habs could be in playoffs
Yeah, nice way to take something out of context.

I was responding to Mr Hab saying Markov had a frail body.

I responded that he's one of the buffest players on the Habs. He's bigger and more buff than Subban and PK is one of the players that trains the most.

Your response was just completetly out of context.

And there's a huge difference between Lafleur and Markov shirtless. Guess you just haven't seen both.

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01-27-2013, 12:38 PM
  #469
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Meehan manage situations like that all the time. He's a businessman with dozens of clients, it would be silly to think that he'll hold a grudge.

Bergevin signed Amstrong, Prust and Bouillon generously and Meehan still is'nt making him any gift. To think that paying too much for PK now would pay-off later does'nt make any sense to me. At the next negociation, Meehan will try to get the most he can no mather what.


Do the NY Yankees get players cheaper just because they are generous and loved by agents?? Not at all, in fact they have to pay more than other teams. Ditto for the Rangers before the cap.
Yankees don't get players for cheap, there's no cap in Baseball. Last year, they spent 25M more on salaries than the following team, and 140M more than the cheapest one.

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01-27-2013, 12:38 PM
  #470
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Right, now apply all of the same positive for PK. How exactly does one come to the conclusion that he's worth 200K more than Emelin?
Managing the cap.

All Subban has to do is sign a two year bridge for $3.5 per and then when the crap Gauthier contracts are gone, Subban can be given "Doughty" money.

If you give Subban the big contract this year then the Canadiens will be hamstrung regarding the cap once again.

This team still has needs to be filled. With or without Subban, we still need a physical stay at home DMan. We need improvements over Bourque. Cole and Gionta will have to be replaced.

And with Subban's big contract now, Bergevin will be limited as to what he can do to solve those problems.

PK should be able to understand that concept of building a team to compete for a Cup instead of it all being about PK.

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01-27-2013, 12:39 PM
  #471
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Almost post it, but decided it'd be more fun if someone came up with it

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01-27-2013, 12:39 PM
  #472
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Originally Posted by Kade View Post
MB is actually using the CBA the way it should be used. It is in place to keep salaries in line until players reach UFA status. Posters on here need to wake up. The mess the NHL gets itself in is when GM's overpay before they have to. Agents then use these overpay contracts as new benchmarks and then we are a mess again resulting in a lockout. MB's stance should be applauded and followed by all GM's.
The money spent on RFAs doesn't affect % of HRR going to players or owners at all. All it affects is the distribution of the players' %.

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01-27-2013, 12:40 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Managing the cap.

All Subban has to do is sign a two year bridge for $3.5 per and then when the crap Gauthier contracts are gone, Subban can be given "Doughty" money.

If you give Subban the big contract this year then the Canadiens will be hamstrung regarding the cap once again.

This team still has needs to be filled. With or without Subban, we still need a physical stay at home DMan. We need improvements over Bourque. Cole and Gionta will have to be replaced.

And with Subban's big contract now, Bergevin will be limited as to what he can do to solve those problems.

PK should be able to understand that concept of building a team to compete for a Cup instead of it all being about PK.
Except for the past 8 months all he's been offered is 2.1 and 2.9 million. He can't sign a 3.5/year contract (still underpayment) if it's not even being offered.

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01-27-2013, 12:45 PM
  #474
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Actually, anyone who follows the team enough knows MB explicitly sad he didn't sign experienced AHL players for the Dogs because he wanted the young players to fend for themselves, and was expecting hard times. I'll find you the quote if you like. MB states that he wanted the young players to have major roles in their first season there (Dumont, Gallagher, Tinordi, Beaulieu) and if he had signed AHL players with experience, the team might do a lot better, but those young players wouldn't be learning as much..

There's no circus in Hamilton, how they are doing was expected by present management, and not because we don't have good prospects.

Pretty sure I'm not the only one who remembers MB saying this.
The "circus" word was used by DAChampion as an example to bash Bergevin.

We have some good prospects. We also have some prospects that will remain that......prospects.

And almost every one of those poorly performing prospects has been and will continue to be overrated my many fans on this board.

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01-27-2013, 12:49 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Managing the cap.

All Subban has to do is sign a two year bridge for $3.5 per and then when the crap Gauthier contracts are gone, Subban can be given "Doughty" money.

If you give Subban the big contract this year then the Canadiens will be hamstrung regarding the cap once again.

This team still has needs to be filled. With or without Subban, we still need a physical stay at home DMan. We need improvements over Bourque. Cole and Gionta will have to be replaced.

And with Subban's big contract now, Bergevin will be limited as to what he can do to solve those problems.

PK should be able to understand that concept of building a team to compete for a Cup instead of it all being about PK.
That's fine. Except PK is apparently being offered 2M less than what you're suggesting.

Also, you don't get hamstrung by 1 contract of 5-6M, that represents less than 10% of the cap. You need to look at the rest of the 90-95% of the cap and how it's used.
We currently have 6.4M in cap space. Next year, we have a compliance buyout, my guess is it's Kaberle. So, we have room even if you want to sign him longterm.

But you just said it, guys like Cole and Gionta, they're the ones with the bad deals. Are you going to say Price is hamstringing us?? He's the highest paid player after all.
No, because the young guys like MaxPac and Price are the ones you invest in. PK is another one.
You don't tell PK to take a 2M deal and then give over the hill vets big bucks. It's retarded.

But as I said, Bergevin isn't even offering what you are.

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